Player Discussion: Heinola Thread

[surixon]

I brought this up before but twice in two different preseason games Heinola was being beat to the outside and turned inside (something you don’t even see in 13 year old rec hockey) and got walked around.

Heinola is a very smart and skilled player so I was blown away to see him not do it once but twice.

I wonder if he’s making other head scratching plays like that in practice and that’s part of the reason coaches aren’t playing him?

Maurice played Heinola the following season after being drafted and talked glowingly about him, Chevy was the one that made the decision that Heinola would be better off not playing in the NHL that season.

I just don’t understand why Maurice would suddenly decide he doesn’t like Heinola’s game when all logic would say he’s a better player now than he was when Maurice was playing him directly after the draft.

maybe he picked up some bad habits that he’s having a hard time breaking?

Maurice blows smoke up your ass all the time. Of course he was going to talk positively about a good young prospect playing as an 18 year old.

His actions since then tell you all you need to know about what he really believed vis a vis that player. He refused to play him last year when Chevy wanted him to.

He had a less then steller preseason but he has been great for the Moose and imo that is a much better indication of his level then preseason.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Why are we pulling out Samberg in the Florida game? That makes no sense for a variety of reasons.

By ALL of the information we have Heinola is a better player than Samberg. But go ahead, play the lesser talent because he is bigger.

You could go back and forth, guessing that player x is better against team Y and player z is better against team W. But that wouldn't get either player an uninterrupted stretch of games to get comfortable and show what they've got. Not to mention that you would probably guess wrong more often than not.

 

[Imcanadianeh]

Maurice blows smoke up your ass all the time. Of course he was going to talk positively about a good young prospect playing as an 18 year old.

His actions since then tell you all you need to know about what he really believed vis a vis that player. He refused to play him last year when Chevy wanted him to.

He had a less then steller preseason but he has been great for the Moose and imo that is a much better indication of his level then preseason.

if Chevy actually wanted Maurice to play Heinola it would have happened.

Ironically you say the coaches word means absolutely nothing (and I agree whatever coaches say in the media should be taken with a grain of salt) but when the coach of the Moose says something good about Heinola its proof that he should be playing in the NHL.

I agree having success as a young player in the AHL is meaningful but there are a lot of younger players that have success early in their AHL careers but can’t translate that to the NHL.

I agree Heinola should be playing and I expect him to be a good top 4 defenseman, but I’m not naive enough to sit here and think I know more about a prospects development than the entire Jets organization.

As much as people love to think Maurice just won’t play a prospect because he personally doesn’t like him just isn’t true.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

More claims of prospect mismanagement with no hard data other than feelings and opinion.

Still waiting for the list of players that the Jets org didn't give the world to who went on to bigger and better things.

Quite simply, it's been a mix of bad timing, poor play (tc and exy) and the type of D that's been out for the Jets that has been his demise so far this season.

I would have him in over Beaulieu, however, despite the size issue - though Florida is a very physical team, and the best in the league. Not sure you are setting Ville up for sucess by making that his first game back.

Prospect development is seldom, if ever demonstrable, either positively or negatively. We get to see that they turned out well or badly. But you can never know if it was because of what was done with them or in spite of what was done with them. And what happens later on is no proof either, because it is affected by what was done with them earlier. Every result is a matter of opinion.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

if Chevy actually wanted Maurice to play Heinola it would have happened.

Ironically you say the coaches word means absolutely nothing (and I agree whatever coaches say in the media should be taken with a grain of salt) but when the coach of the Moose says something good about Heinola its proof that he should be playing in the NHL.

I agree having success as a young player in the AHL is meaningful but there are a lot of younger players that have success early in their AHL careers but can’t translate that to the NHL.

I agree Heinola should be playing and I expect him to be a good top 4 defenseman, but I’m not naive enough to sit here and think I know more about a prospects development than the entire Jets organization.

As much as people love to think Maurice just won’t play a prospect because he personally doesn’t like him just isn’t true.

It isn't that what all coaches say means nothing. It is that nothing Maurice ever said meant anything.

You assume that Chevy would impose a decision on lineups to his coach. I don't think there is any evidence to support that. Chevy seems to delegate coaching decisions to coaches.

The coach of the Moose is a development coach, so when he addresses a player's development, it should be meaningful.

You can't tell how well a player's AHL success translates to the NHL if you don't allow the player to play in the NHL.

 

[surixon]

if Chevy actually wanted Maurice to play Heinola it would have happened.

Ironically you say the coaches word means absolutely nothing (and I agree whatever coaches say in the media should be taken with a grain of salt) but when the coach of the Moose says something good about Heinola its proof that he should be playing in the NHL.

I agree having success as a young player in the AHL is meaningful but there are a lot of younger players that have success early in their AHL careers but can’t translate that to the NHL.

I agree Heinola should be playing and I expect him to be a good top 4 defenseman, but I’m not naive enough to sit here and think I know more about a prospects development than the entire Jets organization.

As much as people love to think Maurice just won’t play a prospect because he personally doesn’t like him just isn’t true.

From what I heard there was a disagreement on Heinola Chevy vs Maurice. Do you think Chevy goes to the press and actually says what he'd like to see roster wise and then have Moe snipe back in his press conference if there wasn't some friction?

Also I'm not basing my assessment on Heinola based on what our AHL coaches say, I'm basing it on what I have seen from him. I've been to or watched 80% of the games he's played the last two years there.

But in terms of Vincent when he was here I liked listening to him because he would break down the prospects game and talk about what specifically they do well and what needs polish. In most cases his analysis matched what I saw on the ice.

 

[kcin94]

if Chevy actually wanted Maurice to play Heinola it would have happened.

And it did. Maurice played him. Maurice said it would be a competition for the last D spot down the stretch last year. He said he wouldn't judge based on one game. He said he didn't want young players worried to make a mistake. Heinola played well so he got another. And then another. And then another. And then he made a drop pass to nobody that ended up in the back of our net. He never played again. So much for the one mistake thing.

Maurice said he didn't want young players on the taxi squad for long stretches of time. Then Heinola was on the taxi squad for long strecthes of time. So much for young people shouldn't be on the taxi squad.

Good thing we got the new voice in Lowry. Lowry said he didn't want young people on the taxi squad for a long stretch of time. Oops.

When asked about Heinola, he said the circumstances were unfortunate, but he'll have to wait for his opportunity. Stanley/DeMelo get hurt and the opportunity goes to Beaulieu. Oops.

When asked why they had so many guys on the taxi squad instead of playing on the Moose. He said it was for competition. How many D have come out because of bad play since he made that statement? Zero. Oops.

It must be because we are playing so well. Wait we lost in a row and 5 of the last 6? Oops.

 

[surixon]

And it did. Maurice played him. Maurice said it would be a competition for the last D spot down the stretch last year. He said he wouldn't judge based on one game. He said he didn't want young players worried to make a mistake. Heinola played well so he got another. And then another. And then another. And then he made a drop pass to nobody that ended up in the back of our net. He never played again. So much for the one mistake thing.

Maurice said he didn't want young players on the taxi squad for long stretches of time. Then Heinola was on the taxi squad for long strecthes of time. So much for young people shouldn't be on the taxi squad.

Good thing we got the new voice in Lowry. Lowry said he didn't want young people on the taxi squad for a long stretch of time. Oops.

When asked about Heinola, he said the circumstances were unfortunate, but he'll have to wait for his opportunity. Stanley/DeMelo get hurt and the opportunity goes to Beaulieu. Oops.

When asked why they had so many guys on the taxi squad instead of playing on the Moose. He said it was for competition. How many D have come out because of bad play since he made that statement? Zero. Oops.

It must be because we are playing so well. Wait we lost in a row and 5 of the last 6? Oops.

In fairness the Jets don't have a roster spot available to recall him right now so they are forced to play Beau. With more forwards in COVID they can't waive Ves to bring him up.

 

[gojetsgo]

In fairness the Jets don't have a roster spot available to recall him right now so they are forced to play Beau. With more forwards in COVID they can't waive Ves to bring him up.

also he might have been the one drawn in instead of samberg/chisholm if he hadn't tested positive at that time

 

[kcin94]

In fairness the Jets don't have a roster spot available to recall him right now so they are forced to play Beau. With more forwards in COVID they can't waive Ves to bring him up.

That may have been true last game. However, now they know that Stanley won't be back within 7 days, so he can be put on IR.

Or waive Beaulieu, the inferior defenceman

 

[surixon]

That may have been true last game. However, now they know that Stanley won't be back within 7 days, so he can be put on IR.

Or waive Beaulieu, the inferior defenceman

Oh I'd waive Beau in a heart beat but the org seems to like him as the PB dmen.

 

[Jet]

By ALL of the information we have Heinola is a better player than Samberg. But go ahead, play the lesser talent because he is bigger.

You could go back and forth, guessing that player x is better against team Y and player z is better against team W. But that wouldn't get either player an uninterrupted stretch of games to get comfortable and show what they've got. Not to mention that you would probably guess wrong more often than not.

I don't agree with any of this.

In my mind Samberg has already performed better in the NHL than Heinola.
I also stand by my assertion that putting a smallish, non physical defenseman into his first nhl game in many months against a physical team that is amongst the very best in the league isn't setting him up for success, especially if you're putting him with a weaker/ inexperienced partner

 

[BoneDocUK]

In fairness the Jets don't have a roster spot available to recall him right now so they are forced to play Beau. With more forwards in COVID they can't waive Ves to bring him up.

Couldn't they waive Beaulieu?

I mean they won't, but couldn't they?

It's a weird one. In some ways this season, including being leapfrogged by Samberg (I like Sam and he's played well, no issue there) is reminding me of Niku's nightmare season where he finally had his chance and got into a car crash, then had it again and was injured in a freak warmup accident, etc., etc .

We know that Heinola is no Niku, and as a first-rounder and highly-regarded prospect he should get more and better chances, but another month in the PB pretty much guarantees that he's going to come in rusty, and I am so sick of watching play after play die on there stick of a D that can't finish a simple pass, or freezes like a mouse in sight of a cat a la Beaulieu when he has the puck. Argh.

 

[surixon]

Couldn't they waive Beaulieu?

I mean they won't, but couldn't they?

They could do any number of things but it seems the room loves Beau which is likely why he's still here.

 

[DRW204]

Couldn't they waive Beaulieu?

I mean they won't, but couldn't they?

yes. or put stanley on ir. post#285 covers it.

also the thing samberg vs heinola. one thing to consider.

heinola played his first 5 nhl games at 18 years old

samberg has now played his first 5 and just turned 23

nearly 5 years age difference in age is big, especially when one of them is 18. id hope samberg looks better (although since the detroit game i don't think he's done anything noteworthy).

i think there's spots for both of them in the line-up though.

 

[BoneDocUK]

They could do any number of things but it seems the room loves Beau which is likely why he's still here.

I get that too -- we hear it constantly. But all that love in the room hasn't made him a better player and it doesn't seem to have made the Jets a better team.

It's odd -- in 2019 there were "ruffled feathers," and the team played some awful hockey and we heard plenty about how damaging these rifts were and how important it was to get the room right. Now we hear constantly about how tight the room is, and the Jets have played some awful hockey and are on the outside looking in for a playoff spot.

So, how much is a great room contributing to their winning ways?

I still think that playing the best players in the best spots is one thing the team can do that doesn't cost them anything. We've seen a bit of it already with KFC on his proper side on the PP and as a shorty threat on the PK, and with the revived PLD line. I think we aren't seeing it as much elsewhere down the lineup or with the D.

 

[surixon]

I get that too -- we hear it constantly. But all that love in the room hasn't made him a better player and it doesn't seem to have made the Jets a better team.

It's odd -- in 2019 there were "ruffled feathers," and the team played some awful hockey and we heard plenty about how damaging these rifts were and how important it was to get the room right. Now we hear constantly about how tight the room is, and the Jets have played some awful hockey and are on the outside looking in for a playoff spot.

So, how much is a great room contributing to their winning ways?

No clue. I don't actually think we've played awful hockey this year for the most part. We went from a bottom 3 metrics team to a mid table metrics team. Our offensive creation at 5 on 5 has been significantly better while our defense has been slightly better. To me the big issue is we have had a regression in finishing and goaltending which make the team worse then what it was. I.e countering our finishing and goaltending making us better then what we were the prior two years.

It wouldn't surprise me to see this team sholt up the standings next year if our goaltending and finishing bounces back.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I don't agree with any of this.

In my mind Samberg has already performed better in the NHL than Heinola.
I also stand by my assertion that putting a smallish, non physical defenseman into his first nhl game in many months against a physical team that is amongst the very best in the league isn't setting him up for success, especially if you're putting him with a weaker/ inexperienced partner

When was the last time Heinola had 5 games in a row? He got 5 games to start the season almost 2 years ago now. Not 1 since. And you are going to compare that to Samberg at age 23?

I'll grant you that this might not be the best choice for a 1st game after a long stretch of not playing at all. But if you keep finding excuses to not play him, that stretch of not playing just gets longer. Couldn't put him in last game against Crosby/Malkin. Couldn't put him in the game before that, Bruins y'know.

I'm not putting him with a weaker/inexperienced partner. I'm putting him with DeMelo.

 

[jgimp]

How long until he asks for a trade? I can’t imagine this is good for his mental stability, confidence or development.

 

[KingBogo]

How long until he asks for a trade? I can’t imagine this is good for his mental stability, confidence or development.

There are a grand total of 5 defenseman his age or younger who have played more games in the NHL. Very few 20 y/o defenseman who are regulars in the NHL. I'm guessing he is looking forward to his opportunity just like every other prospect. If you are a prospect who feels entitled to an NHL roster spot it is more likely than not you will have a very short career.

 

[DRW204]

How long until he asks for a trade? I can’t imagine this is good for his mental stability, confidence or development.

I don't think very long. The org doesn't think much of him if he they determined the likes of sbisa, beaulieu, bitetto, Forbort are superior nhl players and have more potential than him. Then they had Benn and Stanley higher than him last year (remember the supposed open competition for the third pair).
Now you add 2 vets with big contracts (Dillon and Schmidt) who are superior than the first list of players. This is the second year he's sat for a long time and not playing anywhere.

 

[Weezeric]

Appleton/Roslovic

Laine couldn't crack the Wheeler hold on the top line.

Perfetti should have been worked in before Wheeler got hurt. Even after he got hurt he was taxi squaded and only got in because of COVID issues. He wasn't being worked in. Reichel was being played over him. If it wasn't for the sheer number of COVID/injuries, he would be taxi squaded or on the Moose.

Fact: Wheeler has been better than Laine every year Laine has been in the league, including this one.

Heinola is 20 years old and undersized. Show me all the defencemen who have had successful seasons at 20 who weren’t physically mature.

 

[KingBogo]

I don't think very long. The org doesn't think much of him if he they determined the likes of sbisa, beaulieu, bitetto, Forbort are superior nhl players and have more potential than him. Then they had Benn and Stanley higher than him last year (remember the supposed open competition for the third pair).
Now you add 2 vets with big contracts (Dillon and Schmidt) who are superior than the first list of players. This is the second year he's sat for a long time and not playing anywhere.

And in 7 years years they will be forced to move him, unless he decides to go back to Finland after his ELC in 3 years to play for a couple hundred grand. You do realize he is only 20 right? And he was 18 and 19 when the players you mentioned were playing. And you know it is extremely rare for a defenseman to play as a teenager right?

 

[Romang67]

At this point it's looking like he won't get into many if any NHL games this season, and end up playing fewer games than he did in the years leading up to his draft.

As with last year, it doesn't strike me as the best way of developing a young D-man.

Edit: well, this post aged like fine milk left out in the sun. Would have preferred if we could have combined Heinola playing with NOT having half our D going on COVID or injury list.

 

[KingBogo]

At this point it's looking like he won't get into many if any NHL games this season, and end up playing fewer games than he did in the years leading up to his draft.

As with last year, it doesn't strike me as the best way of developing a young D-man.

Edit: well, this post aged like fine milk left out in the sun. Would have preferred if we could have combined Heinola playing with NOT having half our D going on COVID or injury list.

Yeah taxi squads are not the best for development. I'd like to see the Jets just make a decision and send him to the Moose to play.