Has the US underachieved or just had bad luck?

[JackSlater]

I know Richter played well, but this whole idea that many people seem to have that he's the only reason the US team won the tournament always baffled me. The US beat Canada 3 times and the only game Canada won was in overtime. The US was clearly the better team in 1996 and I think people really forget that. I'd really love to know what happened to the team in 1998, you know the true behind the scenes reasons. As for the Olympics, in 2002, 2010 and 2014 Canada was just the better team, although it was close.

It mostly stems from the final game. Canada badly outplayed USA for 56 minutes and only had a one goal lead. If not for a great game by Richter that one probably would have been over before the third. He kept USA in the game so that the final explosion could happen.

 

[chunkylover53]

Although I agree with your general point, (if I'm picking, I obviously am taking Crosby, Stamkos, Toews etc over those guys) Pavelski is the 8th highest scoring center in the league. He's near a point per game and plays outstanding in all zones. I think he's very underrated. Sort of tangent point, but...

Pavelski is underrated. But this season is a career year for him, he has not been historically that type of player, and it remains whether it's sustainable.

 

[Frank the Tank]

Kessel isn't a center. Maybe you meant Kesler.

Yes, I meant Kesler. Remind me not to post after a few beers on a Saturday evening.

 

[Big Phil]

When you consider that the 96 USA World Cup team did not have the advantage of playing and practicing together more than anyone else I would have to say that they were the best non Canadian team ever. They beat a highly motivated Team Canada 3 out of 4 times on the small ice and on paper their roster was very, very good. Great tournament too, Chelios and Lindros hated each other, lots of drama.

The 1979-'81 Soviets might disagree with that. But other than that, out of the winners in the best on best the Americans in 1996 were better than the Swedes in 2006 and the Czechs in 1998. What happened to practically that same team against the Czechs in 1998 is a mystery. But 1996 US looked driven and hungry.

It mostly stems from the final game. Canada badly outplayed USA for 56 minutes and only had a one goal lead. If not for a great game by Richter that one probably would have been over before the third. He kept USA in the game so that the final explosion could happen.

Yes, Game 3. It was like watching a David and Goliath match for the first couple of periods. The shots were 34-14 in the first two periods and the quality of scoring chances Canada had were staggering. They left the 2nd period tied 1-1 and to watch that game you would have never thought it since Richter stood on his head better than any goalie I've ever seen in a single game.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

The 1979-'81 Soviets might disagree with that. But other than that, out of the winners in the best on best the Americans in 1996 were better than the Swedes in 2006 and the Czechs in 1998. What happened to practically that same team against the Czechs in 1998 is a mystery. But 1996 US looked driven and hungry.

The point is though that if the 96 USA team played and practiced together anywhere near as much as the '79-'81 Soviets they would have been much better than them.

 

[Big Phil]

The point is though that if the 96 USA team played and practiced together anywhere near as much as the '79-'81 Soviets they would have been much better than them.

Those are very big "ifs" there. It is all hypothetical.

 

[Brainiac]

I wouldn't say underachieving. They came close quite a few times. In 2002, 2010 and 2014 they were the team that gave team Canada a run for its money.

With a little bit of puck luck, they could have won one of these games, especially 2010. And then we wouldn't have all these talks about Canada 'dominating'.

And they're quite young too. Almost unfortunate for them that team Canada also has a boatload of relatively young talents.

As a Habs fan, you also of have a soft spot for them (Pacioretty, soon Galchenyuk). For example, at the WJC last year, I was totally cheering for team USA for two reasons: 1-Galchenyuk; 2-Completely stupid selections for TC.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Those are very big "ifs" there. It is all hypothetical.

Maybe so, but it is undeniable that the USA would have been much much better if they had the experience playing and practicing together that the Soviets had.

 

[YMCMBYOLO]

Maybe so, but it is undeniable that the USA would have been much much better if they had the experience playing and practicing together that the Soviets had.

You could say that for any team.People would say that Canada would be unstoppable if they had time to play together like the Soviets.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

Everyone always says that the USA will catch Canada one day, and yet the Canadians have actually grown apart from them even more.

Either way, the world itself has caught up to Canada I'd say.

Canada hasn't separated themselves from the US at the U20 and U18 tournaments. So I would say your assumption that Canada's hockey program has "actually grown apart" is false.

If you think Eichel is some type of savior for the US then you haven't really been paying attention that close.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Canada hasn't separated themselves from the US at the U20 and U18 tournaments. So I would say your assumption that Canada's hockey program has "actually grown apart" is false.

I don't think the U.S. has caught up all that much at the U20's. Canada still wins 9 out of 10 games.

The U18's is not fair because Canada does not send their best.

If you think Eichel is some type of savior for the US then you haven't really been paying attention that close.

Saviour is too strong a word but he is needed. (As I am always happy to point out) If you include 2014, the last 7 U.S. drafts have been weak to average.

 

[An Argument For]

Canada hasn't separated themselves from the US at the U20 and U18 tournaments. So I would say your assumption that Canada's hockey program has "actually grown apart" is false.

If you think Eichel is some type of savior for the US then you haven't really been paying attention that close.

Well Canada still dominates the World Juniors compared to other teams. If you look at as a whole, Canada has won what, 9 of the last 20 tournaments? Every other team wins once every 3,4,5 years or so.

And has for the Under 18.. Canada dominates that tournament like a 12 year old who failed kindergarten twice dominates a school yard. It's called the Ivan Hlinka tournament, that's the true U-18 and it's a great white smackdown.

I'd agree that the world has a whole as caught up to Canada.. meaning Canada is now 1/2 of the hockey world.

 

[Xokkeu]

Well Canada still dominates the World Juniors compared to other teams. If you look at as a whole, Canada has won what, 9 of the last 20 tournaments? Every other team wins once every 3,4,5 years or so.

And has for the Under 18.. Canada dominates that tournament like a 12 year old who failed kindergarten twice dominates a school yard. It's called the Ivan Hlinka tournament, that's the true U-18 and it's a great white smackdown.

I'd agree that the world has a whole as caught up to Canada.. meaning Canada is now 1/2 of the hockey world.

So the actual IIHF U18s aren't the real deal because Canada doesn't send it's best players, but the Ivan Hlinka, where the US and other countries don't send their best players is the real deal because......?

 

[SanDogBrewin]

I don't think the U.S. has caught up all that much at the U20's. Canada still wins 9 out of 10 games.

The U18's is not fair because Canada does not send their best.

The US have two Gold medals since 2010 so you are wrong to say that Canada wins 9 out of 10 games. Canada's recent history has not been very good at the U20.

When Canada wins an International tournament they are the best Hockey Nation in the World. When Canada losses, "we don't send our best" or "we don't care about that tournament".

 

[SanDogBrewin]

And has for the Under 18.. Canada dominates that tournament like a 12 year old who failed kindergarten twice dominates a school yard. It's called the Ivan Hlinka tournament, that's the true U-18 and it's a great white smackdown.

So, again, you are just picking which tournaments Canada is a success at too determine which is the best.

The other countries, including the US, don't send there best players to the Ivan Hlinka. The IIHF World U18 is considered the best.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

The US have two Gold medals since 2010 so you are wrong to say that Canada wins 9 out of 10 games. Canada's recent history has not been very good at the U20.:

When I said 90% (9 out of 10), I was just thinking about the totals since the start of the tournament.

**

But, even if I were to quote the totals since 2000, Canada has an 80% winning percentage in head to head matches.

Canada has 12 wins (2001, 2003, 2006, 2007(RR), 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014)

U.S. has 3 wins (2004, 2010, 2013)

**

If you insist on reducing the sample size to 2010 and beyond (when Canada has struggled), the U.S. and Canada have played 7 times. Canada has won 5 or ~72%.

When Canada wins an International tournament they are the best Hockey Nation in the World. When Canada losses, "we don't send our best" or "we don't care about that tournament".

That comment is unfair. Canada's best players are in the Memorial Cup during the U18's. Even the harshest critics of Canadian Hockey acknowledge this.

 

[Samzilla]

The 1979-'81 Soviets might disagree with that. But other than that, out of the winners in the best on best the Americans in 1996 were better than the Swedes in 2006 and the Czechs in 1998. What happened to practically that same team against the Czechs in 1998 is a mystery. But 1996 US looked driven and hungry.



Yes, Game 3. It was like watching a David and Goliath match for the first couple of periods. The shots were 34-14 in the first two periods and the quality of scoring chances Canada had were staggering. They left the 2nd period tied 1-1 and to watch that game you would have never thought it since Richter stood on his head better than any goalie I've ever seen in a single game.

I think that honour now belongs to Gudlevskis in the 2014 Sochi Canada vs Latvia game.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

When I said 90% (9 out of 10), I was just thinking about the totals since the start of the tournament.

U.S. has 3 wins (2004, 2010, 2013)

If you insist on reducing the sample size to 2010 and beyond (when Canada has struggled), the U.S. and Canada have played 7 times. Canada has won 5 or ~72%.

I wasn't talking about the beginning of the tournament, Canada dominated before that. Back to my original answer. Canadian Hockey has not separated themselves from the US development program. So your answer should not be 9 out of 10.

No Gold for Canada in the U20 since 2009. There has been no separation unless you look at the Olympics. There most certainly has been there.

Matter of opinion on which U18 tournament is better. Of course you choose the one that Canada dominates.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

That comment is unfair. Canada's best players are in the Memorial Cup during the U18's. Even the harshest critics of Canadian Hockey acknowledge this.

The US has won 6 Gold medals at the IIHF U18 since 2005. Clearly Canada has separated themselves from the US Development Program. So please do pick your favorite of the two tournaments.

Before you recite all the preliminary wins - no one cares years later except to look up and see who won the Gold.

 

[seanlinden]

Put me in the "they're just not that good" department.

The Americans (along with the Canadians, and Russians) play a different brand than the Europeans who tend to have very strong systems.... but they don't have the talent level to do so.

You look at who they had at centre... Pavelski, Stastny, Kesler & Backes.... don't get me wrong, 4 very good centres, but none of them are really game-breakers. By NHL standards, they all fall into the category of ideal 2nd line centres on good teams. Canada on the other hand, had Crosby & Getzlaf (the top 2 centres in the league right now IMO), followed by Toews & Bergeron (who are more comparable to the american group), and Duchene/Tavares to give them some options.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

I wasn't talking about the beginning of the tournament, Canada dominated before that. Back to my original answer. Canadian Hockey has not separated themselves from the US development program. So your answer should not be 9 out of 10.

No Gold for Canada in the U20 since 2009. There has been no separation unless you look at the Olympics. There most certainly has been there.

Matter of opinion on which U18 tournament is better. Of course you choose the one that Canada dominates.

The US has won 6 Gold medals at the IIHF U18 since 2005. Clearly Canada has separated themselves from the US Development Program. So please do pick your favorite of the two tournaments.

Before you recite all the preliminary wins - no one cares years later except to look up and see who won the Gold.

I didn't discuss either U-18 tournament. I just said the IIHF U-18's are not a fair barometer of Canadian hockey. Nor are they a fair measurement of US Hockey.

As for the WJR's, yes Canada has struggled over the last 5 years - just like we struggled between 1998 and 2004. It's a short tournament and it happens. We'll be back on top soon enough.

But, the truth is, the US Development Program hasn't produced a top end forward in 7 years - if you include the 2014 draft. Eichel will be the first in a long, long time. If you don't believe me, google "NHL 2008 Draft Wiki", go forward by the year and make me a list. When Stepan, Saad and Kreider are the best you can come up with, something is lacking.

Then look at all the great players Canada has produced since the 2008 Draft.

As I said before, if you were going to win at the Olympics, 2014 was your chance. You had the healthiest team - far healthier than every other team. Your team was at its biological/physical peak. You were sending the best players you have produced since 1996 and... you finished 4th.

In 2018, your forwards will be old and beaten up. They will lack depth. If you plan on winning, Quick better stand on his head.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

I just said the IIHF U-18's are not a fair barometer of Canadian hockey. Nor are they a fair measurement of US Hockey.

As for the WJR's, yes Canada has struggled over the last 5 years - just like we struggled between 1998 and 2004. It's a short tournament and it happens.

That's the fairest assessment you've given so far.

But, the truth is, the US Development Program hasn't produced a top end forward in 7 years. Then look at all the great players Canada has produced since the 2008 Draft.

you finished 4th.

The US pretty much always wins the U18 therefore you don't like the tournament. It's the IIHF tournament for U18s and is the best. Your argument doesn't wash. This debate isn't a popularity contest, you don't just get to pick best dressed at the dance.

There are two Canadians in the top twenty NHL scoring ,right now, drafted after 2008, with one goalie. Your assertion proves zilch.

Now you are all over the place and including the draft in your argument. The question from the OP is "underachievement for the US".

A one goal loss to the Gold medal team and 4th place is not underachieving. If the US weren't medaling at all, at any level then I would agree with you.

I will say Potato you will say PotatoE. I will say the sky is Blue, you will the sky is Red. And Canada still has not separated themselves from the USDHL or Canada would still be dominating the U18 and U20 tournaments.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

The US pretty much always wins the U18 therefore you don't like the tournament. It's the IIHF tournament for U18s and is the best. Your argument doesn't wash. This debate isn't a popularity contest, you don't just get to pick best dressed at the dance.

Even the harshest critics of Canadian Hockey acknowledge the U18's is unfair to Canada and we send our C team. If you choose not to, that is up to you.

There are two Canadians in the top twenty NHL scoring ,right now, drafted after 2008, with one goalie. Your assertion proves zilch..

Here are some of the forwards Canada has produced since 2008... Stamkos, Eberle, Tavares, Duchene, Kane, O'Reilly, Hall, Seguin, Skinner, Couture, RNH, MacKinnon, Drouin, Monahan, to name a few.

If you say it's a wash, well, then it's a wash.

Now you are all over the place and including the draft in your argument. The question from the OP is "underachievement for the US".

A one goal loss to the Gold medal team and 4th place is not underachieving. If the US weren't medaling at all, at any level then I would agree with you.

I will say Potato you will say PotatoE. I will say the sky is Blue, you will the sky is Red. And Canada still has not separated themselves from the USDHL or Canada would still be dominating the U18 and U20 tournaments.

Fair enough. Anyway, it was nice arguing with you, SDB. It was fun. Be well, buddy.

 

[SanDogBrewin]

Here are some of the forwards Canada has produced since 2008... Stamkos, Eberle, Tavares, Duchene, Kane, O'Reilly, Hall, Seguin, Skinner, Couture, RNH, MacKinnon, Drouin, Monahan, to name a few.

Fair enough. Anyway, it was nice arguing with you, SDB. It was fun. Be well, buddy.

When they are all in the 20 scoring and none from the US, crow all you want.

Cheers!

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

When they are all in the 20 scoring and none from the US, crow all you want.

Will do.

But, the truth is, the US Development Program hasn't produced a top end forward in 7 years - if you include the 2014 draft. Eichel will be the first in a long, long time. If you don't believe me, google "NHL 2008 Draft Wiki", go forward by the year and make me a list. When Stepan, Saad and Kreider are the best you can come up with, something is lacking.
.

P.S. Where's your list???