Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[Overrated]

BS many players could have done what he did in his situation. He had a goat favorable situation I give you that.

I read your edit but the main problem is that all of the greats in the past 20+ years have played on superteams. R9 played with Zidane, Carlos, Beckham, Raul, Robinho, Ramos, Figo, Casillas, Owen...
Cristiano played on a superteam in Manchester too, then went to a superstacked RM. Ronaldinho played in Barcelona with young Messi. Haaland is now at City with an insane squad.

You will NOT see a superstar playing for a medicore team today. It's not a thing anymore LOL. How was Messi carried by his team at WC when he was clearly and by far their best player and an MVP winner? Messi now won WC and Copa America as a washed up old guy and still ended up the MVP in both LOL:

Talk about getting carried.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Not hypothetical. I am talking primes. All three players played plenty of games throughout their primes to compare.

It's not so common for people who witnessed both to say Gretzky wasn't as dominant as Orr. Yeah maybe they are sentimental about their childhood hero but it's way too many people who put Orr above Gretzky to ignore.

You know there are people who do the whole adjusted points thing based on the scoring averages to compare eras. Well Mario Lemieux has 3 out of the 4 highest adjusted PPG seasons in NHL's history.

So no Gretzky objectively didn't dominate Lemieux. Even if he were better than him at their respective peaks (which is debatable as I've shown) it would be by a tiny bit.

GOAT status isn't typically determined by using just a player's prime years.

With Orr you're talking about what, 8 seasons?

 

[armani]

Jordan in a no hand-check NBA would be unstoppable. NBA players past and present have said as much many many times.

I’m a biased American for sure but soccer is a boring game and I’ll never put Messi over greats like Jordan, Lebron, Gretzky, Lemieux, Bonds, Randy Johnson, Brady, Payton, etc…

Soccer sucks and is lame as f***. Come at me bro’s, as soon as you get up off the grass after faking an injury and crying your eyes out on global television

In America the kids who played soccer were the ones who didn’t have the strength, hand eye coordination, or quite frankly balls to play the real sports. I know Messi is supremely talented but it’s still soccer and I still don’t care about it. Never have never will. I played for about two years and even became a certified soccer ref at one point. It’s a lame game.

Your comment is not unlike many of the boomers around here, not sure they ever kicked a ball let alone play a game where things get physical. It's not just kicks, some of which can be debilitating. There are elbows, knees, shoulder checks and the cleats that are used on unpadded/unprotected skin. I mean that's what makes a sport a "real" sport right? Not the sprinting with the ball, making long and short passes with accuracy, and the plays that lead to goals. The agility, flexibility, balance, and strength on the ball.

Also, Jordan is basketball GOAT, the disrespect here by some is unwarranted.

Messi is the most recognizable athlete, besides Cristiano Ronaldo, on the planet. He scores regularly in a game not known for being high scoring. He makes a case for being sports GOAT, he is like Ali with regards to his reach and popularity around the globe.

 

[Overrated]

GOAT status isn't typically determined by using just a player's prime years.

With Orr you're talking about what, 8 seasons?

I agree bro. Of course Gretzky is the GOAT of hockey but he only dominated as a whole: longevity + achievements + peak but at his best there have been two more guys on his level. That automatically means he wasn't as dominant as some people here seem to believe or want to believe.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Because I made a comment about two of the players mentioned in the OP?

If it's about Jordan, there's a case to be made he's not even the GOAT of basketball so for me that takes him out of the running.

Jordan belongs in any GOAT discussion, whether it’s about basketball or comparing other sports. Whatever case against you’re talking about is a very weak one and not held by many

 

[swiftwin]

You're right about the "Canadian" guy being among the best defenders in the world. It still doesn't negate my point since this guy was born in Ghana where soccer is the most popular team sport so it's clear he wasn't following the pattern @x Tame Impala mentioned about talented American kids playing other sports.

Bruh. Davies was born in a refugee camp from Liberian parents. He moved Canada when he was 5 years old as a refugee. He probably didn't see a soccer ball, and definitely didn't play any organized soccer until he moved to Edmonton.

 

[J bo Jeans]

Messi is not even the goat soccer player, get over it. Stat padding playing for the most stacked team in soccer history with a system entirely built around him in an uneven league. Like sending current Oilers to the AHL and getting impressed by McDavid’s 250 points. What happened when Messi was sent to PSG? Just because he then won a fluke World Cup on a stacked team doesn’t make him the goat. Maradona brought a mediocre Argentina squad to the WC gold medal and a bottom feeder in Napoli to consecutive league titles in the best, toughest and most evenly matched league in the world at the time and maybe ever.

Maradona does not have the longevity to be considered the Goat. I mean Messi is likely to finish his career with 3x the amount of goals. He beats him in every statistical category. The only thing Maradona had over Messi was a WC win and thats now gone.

Its like saying Orr is the GOAT. He is obviously one of the best but he never played long enough to be considered the GOAT in hockey.

 

[TBF1972]

Context should be applied here... they've won the Europa League 12 times in 20 years yes, but thats a 2nd tier competition and not nearly as prestigious as Champions League. & they aren't playing against most of the top clubs anyhow, seeing as those teams are typically playing in CL.

i am aware of that. it takes nothing away from my argument.

i quoted someone who said la liga has only two good teams (real and barca) and the rest of the league is weak. but those weak teams were good enough to win three times the number of euro league titles than premier league teams.

 

[TaLoN]

... who? Playing what?

 

[North Cole]

I read your edit but the main problem is that all of the greats in the past 20+ years have played on superteams. R9 played with Zidane, Carlos, Beckham, Raul, Robinho, Ramos, Figo, Casillas, Owen...
Cristiano played on a superteam in Manchester too, then went to a superstacked RM. Ronaldinho played in Barcelona with young Messi. Haaland is now at City with an insane squad.

You will NOT see a superstar playing for a medicore team today. It's not a thing anymore LOL. How was Messi carried by his team at WC when he was clearly and by far their best player and an MVP winner? Messi now won WC and Copa America as a washed up old guy and still ended up the MVP in both LOL:
View attachment 736923

Talk about getting carried.

Lmao, the Euro >>>> Copa. That image is not evidence of anything other than how much worse the competition is.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Jordan belongs in any GOAT discussion, whether it’s about basketball or comparing other sports. Whatever case against you’re talking about is a very weak one and not held by many

Well since you've clearly polled every basketball fan and arrived at the statistical conclusion not many hold that opinion, I guess I'll stand down. lol

Jordan obviously belongs in a GOAT discussion about basketball but isn't a clear and away choice like those in some other sports when you remove the mystique and actually focus on playing the sport.

I don't really even follow basketball anymore so it's not like this is a personal thing for me. When you look at the actual careers and not the hype, Jordan simply isn't as head and shoulders above his peers as some guys in other sports.

 

[TBF1972]

My post you quoted talks about the Champions League and how only league champions used to qualify for the European Cup. Nice response talking about the 2nd tier competition and claiming I "overrate the pl quite a bit" when you clearly didn't comprehend what you read.

Then explain again this part of your post:

Then the UCL format changed to let all those clubs in for basically free (except the PL where you have to earn it, to an extent, because there's more than 4 good clubs, unlike La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1

No way the Premier League was better than La Liga the last 20 years. The Euro League results proof pretty much the opposite. PL is just the most televised league in the world and TV contract had an influx of money, which allowed those buy lots of players. But the level of play was for a long time below the level of players in the PL.

 

[WarriorofTime]

USA has made the last 16 at the World Cup a bunch. The idea that no American has ever been good at soccer is just kinda stupid. I don’t have some floating top 50 at a snapshot moment in time off hand but you are definitely underrating some past and present players.

Any such list is little more than a guess anyways. There are so many leagues around the world that the whole thing isn’t centralized enough to have a clear sense of how every player in the world stacks up.

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

I read your edit but the main problem is that all of the greats in the past 20+ years have played on superteams. R9 played with Zidane, Carlos, Beckham, Raul, Robinho, Ramos, Figo, Casillas, Owen...
Cristiano played on a superteam in Manchester too, then went to a superstacked RM. Ronaldinho played in Barcelona with young Messi. Haaland is now at City with an insane squad.

idc about the Messi/CR7 rivalry im happy to have watched both those legends but Real Madrid was
not super stacked when Cristiano joined we were complete ass and rebuilding Barca ruled La Liga and we were useless in the Champions League CR7 made us alot better along with the later signings Di Maria/Ozil/Bale etc...

Man United was a great team ill give you that but CR7 was a huge part of that specially in 2008

 

[Albatros]

Then explain again this part of your post:

Then the UCL format changed to let all those clubs in for basically free (except the PL where you have to earn it, to an extent, because there's more than 4 good clubs, unlike La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1

No way the Premier League was better than La Liga the last 20 years. The Euro League results proof pretty much the opposite. PL is just the most televised league in the world and TV contract had an influx of money, which allowed those buy lots of players. But the level of play was for a long time below the level of players in the PL.

The Europa League is a completely secondary or even tertiary competition for most Premier League sides, many don't even deploy their first XIs there.

 

[Reaser]

Then explain again this part of your post:

Then the UCL format changed to let all those clubs in for basically free (except the PL where you have to earn it, to an extent, because there's more than 4 good clubs, unlike La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, Ligue 1

No way the Premier League was better than La Liga the last 20 years. The Euro League results proof pretty much the opposite. PL is just the most televised league in the world and TV contract had an influx of money, which allowed those buy lots of players. But the level of play was for a long time below the level of players in the PL.

Ugh, I fail to see how you don't understand the context of what I said in the post you quoted. It was clearly, very clearly, about qualifying for the UCL.

Try to read it again. Or here's a brief version:

- Only league champions qualified for the European Cup. So, as I said, it was harder to qualify, yes?

- Then the UCL expanded and started adding runners-up (and eventually top-4) making it, as I said, making it easier for the top clubs to qualify for the UCL. Correct? Yes.

The ONLY comment I added re: PL was that "to an extent" -(quoted, which makes it funnier to claim I was "overrating") & I also said "even PL it's easier" to qualify for the UCL than it was previous when only league champions qualified- it wasn't as "free qualification" for the top PL clubs as it was for La Liga (Barca & Real Madrid), Bundesliga (Bayern Munich), etc..

Somehow that causes your now twice response talking about 2nd tier competition results? Asinine.

Trying to make it even simpler for you. Look up how many times Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich have NOT qualified for the UCL since even the 1997-98 UCL expansion. Look it up. Then look how many times, for example, Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, have NOT qualified for the UCL in the same period.

It's essentially and as close as you can get to free qualification to the UCL for the Big 2 in La Liga, Same for Bayern Munich in the Bundesliga. While it isn't "as free" for PL clubs because there's more clubs that can, have, do (& don't) qualify for the UCL since the expansion of including more than just league champions.

Straightforward, simple and not confusing, at all. Nothing to do with 2nd tier competitions. Again, just report back with how many times Barca and Real Madrid have NOT qualified for the UCL since 1997-98 edition then try for a 3rd time to argue that it's harder for them to qualify for the UCL because my post you quoted was saying that it was for all intents and purposes a free qualification for the UCL since the expansion, and history proves me correct.

 

[Overrated]

idc about the Messi/CR7 rivalry im happy to have watched both those legends but Real Madrid was
not super stacked when Cristiano joined we were complete ass and rebuilding Barca ruled La Liga and we were useless in the Champions League CR7 made us alot better along with the later signings

Man United was a great team ill give you that but CR7 was a huge part of that specially in 2008

That being said i hate the Messi vs CR7 debates both of them were goats and a huge part of their teams success what alot of people dont know tho is Cristiano had a almost career ending injury to the knee that still to this day affects him and he had to completely change hes game style

"was complete ass" while having guys like Di Maria, Kaka, Ozil, Benzema, Ramos or Casillas on the team lol

I was rewatching that legendary 5-0 game and the commentator said RM had not lost a game in 25 games. I will agree with you though on the fact that this team which hasn't lost in 25 games was the absolute worst RM team CR7 had to ever play on.

 

[Voight]

i am aware of that. it takes nothing away from my argument.

i quoted someone who said la liga has only two good teams (real and barca) and the rest of the league is weak. but those weak teams were good enough to win three times the number of euro league titles than premier league teams.

Personally I'd say they have 3 good teams, those two + Athletico.

Anyhow lets not get OT.

 

[Voight]

The Europa League is a completely secondary or even tertiary competition for most Premier League sides, many don't even deploy their first XIs there.

I've also never seen any soccer fan that I know celebrate winning Europa League. Nobody wants a consolation prize.

 

[Overrated]

The Europa League is a completely secondary or even tertiary competition for most Premier League sides, many don't even deploy their first XIs there.

UEFA ranked leagues for their CL. La Liga was about even to EPL in the 2000s and quite a bit superior in the 2010s.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Because I made a comment about two of the players mentioned in the OP?

If it's about Jordan, there's a case to be made he's not even the GOAT of basketball so for me that takes him out of the running.

You’ve probably made several questionable comments - including this one. But keep digging a hole.

 

[Overrated]

I've also never seen any soccer fan that I know celebrate winning Europa League. Nobody wants a consolation prize.

If it is a team which rarely qualifies for the CL it's definitely a big thing. Only if it's a superteam which somehow failed to qualify for the CL only then it's a consolation prize.

 

[Reaser]

Personally I'd say they have 3 good teams, those two + Athletico.

Anyhow lets not get OT.

Yup, I even said in Messi's career in La Liga that there was "2 (sometimes 3) teams with above a 0.0% chance of winning" the league which would be the obvious 3 clubs -- still the only 3 that have won La Liga since Messi made his first team La Liga debut way back in 2004.

 

[Albatros]

"was complete ass" while having guys like Di Maria, Kaka, Ozil, Benzema, Ramos or Casillas on the team lol

I was rewatching that legendary 5-0 game and the commentator said RM had not lost a game in 25 games. I will agree with you though on the fact that this team which hasn't lost in 25 games was the absolute worst RM team CR7 had to ever play on.

It was the Dutch edition Real Madrid before Cristiano Ronaldo arrived. His first season in Madrid it was really just him and Higuaín doing the scoring. Benzema had 9 goals in 37 matches across all competitions, the club legend Raúl had 7 in 39. Cristiano Ronaldo 33 in 35. In the Spanish league they went immediately from 78 points to a new club record of 96. Or 83:52 goal difference to 102:35. The improvement he brought with him was massive.

 

[x Tame Impala]

USA has made the last 16 at the World Cup a bunch. The idea that no American has ever been good at soccer is just kinda stupid. I don’t have some floating top 50 at a snapshot moment in time off hand but you are definitely underrating some past and present players.

Any such list is little more than a guess anyways. There are so many leagues around the world that the whole thing isn’t centralized enough to have a clear sense of how every player in the world stacks up.

Who are the best American/Canadian players in the world? Where do they stack up against the world’s best?

I stand by my statement that NA’s best athletes are playing other sports, not soccer. Until that changes soccer will remain niche. Maybe it passes hockey, which I doubt, but even then it will still be at best just as niche as hockey is now. NA doesn’t pump out the best players and soccer leagues here are what, 2, 3, 4 tiers below the best leagues in the world?

Americans watch Football, Baseball, Basketball, and Hockey because…

1) most of us grew up playing one or more of these sports

2) the best players in the world play in America (and Canada)

3) The best leagues in the world are in America

Factors 2) and 3) will keep factor 1) going in perpetuity. We have the history and infrastructure to keep these sports alive and popular for a very long time. Lots of kids play soccer but lots of Americans who watch sports on tv won’t ever give enough of a shit to regularly watch MLS games.