Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[Overrated]

It was the Dutch edition Real Madrid before Cristiano Ronaldo arrived. His first season in Madrid it was really just him and Higuaín doing the scoring. Benzema had 9 goals in 37 matches across all competitions, the club legend Raúl had 7 in 39. Cristiano Ronaldo 33 in 35. In the Spanish league they went immediately from 78 points to a new club record of 96. Or 83:52 goal difference to 102:35. The improvement he brought with him was massive.

Yeah but RM signed Kaka Benzema and Alonso around the same time it wasn't just CR7 turning things around. They rebuilt their whole team.

USA has made the last 16 at the World Cup a bunch. The idea that no American has ever been good at soccer is just kinda stupid. I don’t have some floating top 50 at a snapshot moment in time off hand but you are definitely underrating some past and present players.

Any such list is little more than a guess anyways. There are so many leagues around the world that the whole thing isn’t centralized enough to have a clear sense of how every player in the world stacks up.

That is only because the USA has 300+ million people. It's easy to find someone half decent at every position. A lot of smaller countries might have a star and a few really good players but struggle to have a team depth.

 

[CBJx614]

Something else to consider, Gretzky dominated during an era where specialized training wasn't a thing and players were smoking and drinking between periods. Meanwhile, Messi is still dominating in a sport/era where kids start elite specialized training from the age of 6 or earlier. And many of those players still can't even get to the level of Messi.

Factor in the sheer amount of numbers of people playing soccer across the world, to do what Messi has done is simply more impressive. And this is coming from someone who hated soccer growing up but has learned to appreciate it as an adult.

 

[WarriorofTime]

That is only because the USA has 300+ million people. It's easy to find someone half decent at every position. A lot of smaller countries might have a star and a few really good players but struggle to have a team depth.

No, it's not "only" because of that, or else India would be a perennial world cup contender.

 

[Overrated]

No, it's not "only" because of that, or else India would be a perennial world cup contender.

Yeah it's also the fact soccer is popular in the US. Not even close to popularity to some of these other sports, but still quite popular nevertheless.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

You’ve probably made several questionable comments - including this one. But keep digging a hole.

Well not all of us can make quality posts like the one here where you insult the person instead of addressing the content of their posts.

Keep up the good work. You're a beacon for us all.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Something else to consider, Gretzky dominated during an era where specialized training wasn't a thing and players were smoking and drinking between periods. Meanwhile, Messi is still dominating in a sport/era where kids start elite specialized training from the age of 6 or earlier. And many of those players still can't even get to the level of Messi.

Factor in the sheer amount of numbers of people playing soccer across the world, to do what Messi has done is simply more impressive. And this is coming from someone who hated soccer growing up but has learned to appreciate it as an adult.

This falsehood needs to die. Gretzky played from 1980 to 1999.

In 1998, his second to last season, a 37 year-old Gretzky with a bad back put up 90 points in 82 games. 90 points put him tied for 3rd place in the league that season with a 26 year old Bure (behind Jagr and Forsberg). He had 67 assists which tied him with a 25 year old Jagr for 1st in the league.

In his final season Gretzky scored 62 points in 70 games. It was the only season he finished lower than a PPG.

 

[Reaser]

The Europa League is a completely secondary or even tertiary competition for most Premier League sides, many don't even deploy their first XIs there.

Plus the entire context of the discussion was during Messi's first team European club career (2004-05 to 2022-23) and historically how qualification for the UCL for the "top" clubs in Europe/Big 5 changed.

Even if you want to move it to results and depth (depth as in how many top clubs each league has) you wouldn't use 2nd tier competitions for that. You'd use the UCL, such as:

During Messi's European club career:

6 different PL clubs made the UCL Final and 4 different PL clubs won the Champions League.

3 different La Liga clubs made the UCL Final and 2 different La Liga clubs won the Champions League.

 

[kingsholygrail]

Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps.

 

[CBJx614]

This falsehood needs to die. Gretzky played from 1980 to 1999.

In 1998, his second to last season, a 37 year-old Gretzky with a bad back put up 90 points in 82 games. 90 points put him tied for 3rd place in the league that season with a 26 year old Bure (behind Jagr and Forsberg). He had 67 assists which tied him with a 25 year old Jagr for 1st in the league.

In his final season Gretzky scored 62 points in 70 games. It was the only season he finished lower than a PPG.

It was most definitely still prevalent during his entire career. Maybe not so much in the last few years but the majority of his career it wasn't uncommon by any stretch of the imagination

https://www.si.com/nhl/2012/02/29/players-smokingcigarettesnhlhockey

"I remember my first NHL exhibition game as an assistant with Philly (in 1990)," says Ken Hitchcock, who now coaches the St. Louis Blues. "We were in Washington, and I went to give the lineup to the referees and you had to walk by the Washington dressing room. And Al Iafrate was lighting up with a blowtorch for bending sticks. Coming from junior hockey, I found that rather unique."

Anyone who covered the NHL when Iafrate played from 1984 until his retirement in 1998 as a San Jose Shark probably saw him sitting on a chair outside the dressing room with his shirt (and sometimes pants) off, puffing away. Legend has it that Iafrate once bummed a cigarette off an Ottawa reporter between periods, lighting it up in his customary blowtorch blaze of glory.

Mike Bossy, the Hall of Fame sniper who helped the New York Islanders win four straight Stanley Cups, smoked while answering postgame questions from reporters, as E.M. Swift's Sports Illustrated story from May 1983 documents.

Pittsburgh Penguins great Mario Lemieux smoked well into his brilliant career, but finally gave it up, perhaps due to his scary bout with Hodgkin's Disease.

Chicago's Denis Savard scored 473 goals during his 18-year Hall of Fame career despite a habit that was estimated to be at least a pack a day. His Blackhawks linemates, Steve Larmer and Al Secord, also were said to be big smokers, which contributed to their nickname of "The Party Line" although Secord recently told SI.com that he never lit up.

Keenan tried to get Savard to stop, and did for a while. "But his play went way down. He was going through withdrawal. He went back on them," the ex-coach says.

Darren Pang, a goalie for the Blackhawks in the 1980s, recalls driving to practice one day with Savard, who filled the car with a tobacco cloud. "When the ride was over, about a half hour later, I thought I was going to die," says Pang.

When the influx of Russian and Eastern European players to the NHL started in earnest in the late 1980s, they brought their countries' smoking cultures with them. Many Russians, particularly, were heavy smokers. Among the heaviest was longtime defenseman Sergei Zubov, who won the Stanley Cup with the New York Rangers (1994) and Dallas Stars (1999).

"Nobody thought about it. It wasn't an issue back then," says Scotty Bowman. "They didn't talk about cancer in those days. (Warnings on cigarette packs first appeared in the U.S. in 1966, with a stronger caveat from the Surgeon General appearing in 1970.) If they did, they probably would have stopped. But it was almost like a style."

Says Mike Keenan: "I don't know if it directly affected them in a negative way or not when they were younger and in great shape. But it probably did hurt the longevity of a lot of careers."

 

[John Mandalorian]

Well not all of us can make quality posts like the one here where you insult the person instead of addressing the content of their posts.

Keep up the good work. You're a beacon for us all.

Right. You’re the one who shared. It’s on you.

 

[Albatros]

UEFA ranked leagues for their CL. La Liga was about even to EPL in the 2000s and quite a bit superior in the 2010s.

Well, as of 2010 the top of the club ranking was:

1. FC Barcelona
2. Manchester United
3. Chelsea
4. Arsenal
4. Liverpool

For example Sevilla gathered a lot of ranking points in the Europa League and has participated in the Champions League nine times, but only reached the quarterfinals there once. Similar story with Valencia, plenty of ranking points but haven't reached the Champions League quarterfinals since 2007 and usually got eliminated in the group stage after a poor showing. Of course there's also Villarreal who either had respectable runs or were truly awful, never anything in between. Besides Real Madrid and Barcelona really only Atlético was reliably a legit force in Europe at the highest level (when not failing to overcome Qarabağ or APOEL already in the group stage, anyway).

From the Premier League we have four different Champions League winners and two more finalists since 2006. From Spain that's indeed just a half of the same.

 

[Nico Cauzuki]

"was complete ass" while having guys like Di Maria, Kaka, Ozil, Benzema, Ramos or Casillas on the team lol

I was rewatching that legendary 5-0 game and the commentator said RM had not lost a game in 25 games. I will agree with you though on the fact that this team which hasn't lost in 25 games was the absolute worst RM team CR7 had to ever play on.

Benzema and Kaka came with CR7 in the same window but this wasnt the same Karim you been seeing the last few years he started slow with us same with Kaka this wasnt the AC Milan Kaka he was kinda viewed has a flop for us Di Maria and Ozil came after but when CR7 first came with RM we were NOT good i been a Real Madrid fan for 28 years ive seen the stacked teams " Los Galacticos "
Success slowly started coming after but Ronaldo did not joined a "super stacked RM" we sucked and were rebuilding the team at the time

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Right. You’re the one who shared. It’s on you.

I know. The audacity of me making a post that is actually on topic instead of just insulting someone. My bad.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

It was most definitely still prevalent during his entire career. Maybe not so much in the last few years but the majority of his career it wasn't uncommon by any stretch of the imagination

https://www.si.com/nhl/2012/02/29/players-smokingcigarettesnhlhockey

You've used a few anecdotal examples of players smoking to try and back up your claim that guys were not training and were regularly smoking and drinking in between periods (Al Iafrate was hardly the model of health and Mario smoking was well known as well).

You're also making the assumption that players don't smoke at all anymore.

Technology and training have improved for sure, but the idea that Gretzky was beating up on a bunch of chain smoking beer leaguers is false.

 

[Overrated]

Well, as of 2010 the top of the club ranking was:

1. FC Barcelona
2. Manchester United
3. Chelsea
4. Arsenal
4. Liverpool

For example Sevilla gathered a lot of ranking points in the Europa League and has participated in the Champions League nine times, but only reached the quarterfinals there once. Similar story with Valencia, plenty of ranking points but haven't reached the Champions League quarterfinals since 2007 and usually got eliminated in the group stage after a poor showing. Of course there's also Villarreal who either had respectable runs or were truly awful, never anything in between. Besides Real Madrid and Barcelona really only Atlético was reliably a legit force in Europe at the highest level (when not failing to overcome Qarabağ or APOEL already in the group stage, anyway).

From the Premier League we have four different Champions League winners and two more finalists since 2006. From Spain that's indeed just a half of the same.

Their final ranking is a result of the rankings of the last 5 years so from 05/06 to 09/10 which was an exceptionally strong era for the English football.

The first half a decade of the 2000 were quite different:

3 Spanish teams ahead of the best English


Second half of the 90s only features one English team in the top10

In the Messi - CR7 era Spanish clubs were clearly dominating

In the last 5 years it's been England dominating but it definitely wasn't like that a decade ago

 

[Ben White]

Maradona does not have the longevity to be considered the Goat. I mean Messi is likely to finish his career with 3x the amount of goals. He beats him in every statistical category. The only thing Maradona had over Messi was a WC win and thats now gone.

Its like saying Orr is the GOAT. He is obviously one of the best but he never played long enough to be considered the GOAT in hockey.

People in South America don’t worship longevity like in North America. Ask any Argentinian who they think is the goat. Maradona was the better player and had the more prolific moments in his career. He was both a better player and bigger legend.

I read your edit but the main problem is that all of the greats in the past 20+ years have played on superteams. R9 played with Zidane, Carlos, Beckham, Raul, Robinho, Ramos, Figo, Casillas, Owen...
Cristiano played on a superteam in Manchester too, then went to a superstacked RM. Ronaldinho played in Barcelona with young Messi. Haaland is now at City with an insane squad.

You will NOT see a superstar playing for a medicore team today. It's not a thing anymore LOL. How was Messi carried by his team at WC when he was clearly and by far their best player and an MVP winner? Messi now won WC and Copa America as a washed up old guy and still ended up the MVP in both LOL:
View attachment 736923

Talk about getting carried.

Maradona carried a mediocre Napoli to back to back league titles as well as a mediocre Argentina squad to the World Cup gold medal. That’s what a true goat is capable of.

 

[Ben White]

I read your edit but the main problem is that all of the greats in the past 20+ years have played on superteams. R9 played with Zidane, Carlos, Beckham, Raul, Robinho, Ramos, Figo, Casillas, Owen...
Cristiano played on a superteam in Manchester too, then went to a superstacked RM. Ronaldinho played in Barcelona with young Messi. Haaland is now at City with an insane squad.

You will NOT see a superstar playing for a medicore team today. It's not a thing anymore LOL. How was Messi carried by his team at WC when he was clearly and by far their best player and an MVP winner? Messi now won WC and Copa America as a washed up old guy and still ended up the MVP in both LOL:
View attachment 736923

Talk about getting carried.

R9 proved himself in 3 different top clubs + the national team, despite suffering from what could’ve been a career ending injury at 22 y o. Messi was only really good at Barcelona and they had their entire system built around him for years.

 

[Overrated]

Maradona carried a mediocre Napoli to back to back league titles as well as a mediocre Argentina squad to the World Cup gold medal. That’s what a true goat is capable of.

Was it really that medicore? Yes Maradona carried hard but afaik it had a very strong defense with several clean sheets. Valdano was a top Real Madrid forward and a very strong underrated playmaker Burruchaga. Argentina was not a medicore team at all.

Throughout 2022 Argentina was ranked 3rd and 4th by FIFA. That is great no doubt but it wasn't like they were a guaranteed winner. Messi also carried hard. He was involved in almost every goal.

He was the MVP and by far their best player. A year before at Copa America as well:

These anti-Messi arguments are so silly. It's as if Gretzky had 5000 points and a 300 point season and people would still babble about how it was because he had Coffey Messier and Kurri.

If secondary assists were counted like in the NHL his numbers would be even more insane.

He is one of the slowest players in the world right now at 36 in a sport where speed is basically everything and this is his last season including international compared with the two new superstars:

Where was Pele at 36? Didn't even outscore his teammate in New York.
Where was Maradona at 36? Where was R9?

And longevity is not even his strongest side. In his peak season he scored 82 goals and 41 goals in 69 games including international. Crying about his team when Barcelona stopped being the best ranked team near ten years ago is ridiculous. Madrid for most of the duration of the Messi-CR7 rivalry was the better team.

 

[Panthaz89]

Your comment is not unlike many of the boomers around here, not sure they ever kicked a ball let alone play a game where things get physical. It's not just kicks, some of which can be debilitating. There are elbows, knees, shoulder checks and the cleats that are used on unpadded/unprotected skin. I mean that's what makes a sport a "real" sport right? Not the sprinting with the ball, making long and short passes with accuracy, and the plays that lead to goals. The agility, flexibility, balance, and strength on the ball.

Also, Jordan is basketball GOAT, the disrespect here by some is unwarranted.

Messi is the most recognizable athlete, besides Cristiano Ronaldo, on the planet. He scores regularly in a game not known for being high scoring. He makes a case for being sports GOAT, he is like Ali with regards to his reach and popularity around the globe.

Bruh you'd be a pancake if you ever played A.Football the pads are there so you don't end up dead lmao.

 

[armani]

Bruh you'd be a pancake if you ever played A.Football the pads are there so you don't end up dead lmao.

I played DT for my high school football team, so I clearly don’t see a point in your reply to my post.

 

[TBF1972]

This falsehood needs to die. Gretzky played from 1980 to 1999.

In 1998, his second to last season, a 37 year-old Gretzky with a bad back put up 90 points in 82 games. 90 points put him tied for 3rd place in the league that season with a 26 year old Bure (behind Jagr and Forsberg). He had 67 assists which tied him with a 25 year old Jagr for 1st in the league.

In his final season Gretzky scored 62 points in 70 games. It was the only season he finished lower than a PPG.

gretzky basically played his whole career with marty mcsorley to ensure no one tries to touch him.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Anything messi is doing in the mls should not even be looked at. Embarrassing really

 

[Panthaz89]

I played DT for my high school football team, so I clearly don’t see a point in your reply to my post.

No offense where you would actually be tackled? Nearly everyone in high school football if they started would iron man and play both offensive and defensive positions.

 

[TBF1972]

The list is a joke. Cristiano Ronaldo #3? He is outside of the top10 at this point. A goalscorer who didn't even have the highest GPG in the Saudi league and was kicked out of the EPL is not better than Haaland. Heck even Messi isn't the best player in the world in 2023. John Marty might be American himself so he put a forward who scored 1 goal and 1 assist in 30 games last season in his top50 at #41. And by the way that guy is the greatest most expensive US player ever.

You're right about the "Canadian" guy being among the best defenders in the world. It still doesn't negate my point since this guy was born in Ghana where soccer is the most popular team sport so it's clear he wasn't following the pattern @x Tame Impala mentioned about talented American kids playing other sports.

i love garret bale's foto. suarez would take the bite.

 

[Albatros]

Where was Pele at 36?

NASL MVP ahead of Bobby Moore and George Best, among others.