Prospect Info: Hartford Wolf Pack (AHL)/Maine Mariners (ECHL) Thread: Part XIII

[kovazub94]

Kravtsov has a very specific assignment to work on in Hartford, so when I read @Kovalev27 reports I’m looking to him mentioning Kravtsov coming back to D, forecheck and back check. From what I’ve seen in the KHL last year I have absolutely no concerns about his offensive skills. But it’s not why he’s in AHL now.

 

[NYR Viper]

Skilled players sometimes find it more difficult to play in the AHL than the NHL.

 

[nyr2k2]

A big part of why he is down in Hartford is to work on his effort and 200-foot game, yes, but he also needs to stop trying to do too much and learn to make quicker, more decisive plays with the puck. I still don't see the quick, smart offensive plays and he's still holding it too much and not really making things happen. Whoever likened it to what Kakko looks like in the NHL was pretty spot-on.

The fact that he can't even register a shot on goal many nights, it's somewhat concerning. And it's not because his teammates aren't talented or he's too talented for the league or any of that. I mean you could stick Panarin with me and a three-legged dog and we'd all be recording points by the bushel, because Panarin makes everyone better and can also make his own opportunities. Kravtsov has that talent, but he still doesn't know what the hell he's doing here. I'm certainly optimistic he'll figure it out, but I would be lying if I said I didn't have at least some concern.

 

[Inferno]

A big part of why he is down in Hartford is to work on his effort and 200-foot game, yes, but he also needs to stop trying to do too much and learn to make quicker, more decisive plays with the puck. I still don't see the quick, smart offensive plays and he's still holding it too much and not really making things happen. Whoever likened it to what Kakko looks like in the NHL was pretty spot-on.

The fact that he can't even register a shot on goal many nights, it's somewhat concerning. And it's not because his teammates aren't talented or he's too talented for the league or any of that. I mean you could stick Panarin with me and a three-legged dog and we'd all be recording points by the bushel, because Panarin makes everyone better and can also make his own opportunities. Kravtsov has that talent, but he still doesn't know what the hell he's doing here. I'm certainly optimistic he'll figure it out, but I would be lying if I said I didn't have at least some concern.

The more interesting question is..who would get more points...you, or the 3 legged dog.


Hmmmm

 

[Edge]

Kravtsov has a very specific assignment to work on in Hartford, so when I read @Kovalev27 reports I’m looking to him mentioning Kravtsov coming back to D, forecheck and back check. From what I’ve seen in the KHL last year I have absolutely no concerns about his offensive skills. But it’s not why he’s in AHL now.

I would echo something with Kravtsov that I previously said when trying to gauge the Rangers young defensemen — it’s going to be about more than the numbers.

It’s going to be about rounding out his overall game, learning what works on the pro level - specifically at the NHL level, and not so much just focusing on what he already knows how to do.

 

[kovazub94]

A big part of why he is down in Hartford is to work on his effort and 200-foot game, yes, but he also needs to stop trying to do too much and learn to make quicker, more decisive plays with the puck. I still don't see the quick, smart offensive plays and he's still holding it too much and not really making things happen. Whoever likened it to what Kakko looks like in the NHL was pretty spot-on.

The fact that he can't even register a shot on goal many nights, it's somewhat concerning. And it's not because his teammates aren't talented or he's too talented for the league or any of that. I mean you could stick Panarin with me and a three-legged dog and we'd all be recording points by the bushel, because Panarin makes everyone better and can also make his own opportunities. Kravtsov has that talent, but he still doesn't know what the hell he's doing here. I'm certainly optimistic he'll figure it out, but I would be lying if I said I didn't have at least some concern.

The thing is his mind is occupied by the task at hand so his instincts are being “compromised”. Once 200 foot game becomes more instinctive, his plays elsewhere should return. Not unlike Kakko and not unlike Chytil before them.

 

[nyr2k2]

The thing is his mind is occupied by the task at hand so his instincts are being “compromised”. Once 200 foot game becomes more instinctive, his plays elsewhere should return. Not unlike Kakko and not unlike Chytil before them.

I'm saying offensively he doesn't look substantially different to me than he did in preseason or before he left earlier in the year. I don't think anything needs to return, because it never left; it needs to adjust and refine, because it doesn't really work as it's currently constructed. IMO, anyway.

All the stuff early on with him holding the puck too long, not being decisive in when to get rid of it, trying to straddle the blue line and dispy-doo his way into the zone around 3 or 4 guys, I still see it. Maybe slightly less than before? I don't know. Again I'm happy that his all-around game has improved, but from an offensive standpoint he doesn't look remotely close to being a contributor in the NHL. And that's based off play, not numbers--I just highlight things like his dearth of SOG because that's symptomatic of the stuff I described.

Again, I think it will work itself out. But it is mildly concerning to me, particularly since I had people that apparently watched him last season telling me he could step in and score 30-40 points and be a fixture on the PP. That seems like pure fantasy based on what I've seen.

 

[Ola]

A big part of why he is down in Hartford is to work on his effort and 200-foot game, yes, but he also needs to stop trying to do too much and learn to make quicker, more decisive plays with the puck. I still don't see the quick, smart offensive plays and he's still holding it too much and not really making things happen. Whoever likened it to what Kakko looks like in the NHL was pretty spot-on.

The fact that he can't even register a shot on goal many nights, it's somewhat concerning. And it's not because his teammates aren't talented or he's too talented for the league or any of that. I mean you could stick Panarin with me and a three-legged dog and we'd all be recording points by the bushel, because Panarin makes everyone better and can also make his own opportunities. Kravtsov has that talent, but he still doesn't know what the hell he's doing here. I'm certainly optimistic he'll figure it out, but I would be lying if I said I didn't have at least some concern.

Fair pts.

But I wouldn’t underestimate how hard it is to score pts in the AHL for someone that primarily does so by creative offensive plays. If you pass the puck you will most likely not get it back. And of course, if Panarin played there everyone would just give him the puck and he could do his stuff.

I’ve commented on this for quite a long time. And I have seen many comments from people watching the AHL that in no shape or form take this into account, but I think it has a much bigger impact than we can imagine. Many star NHL players could certainly have many invisible nights if they played for HFD. Hockey is a team game and most offense is created by high caliber offensive plays. It’s the way kids should learn to play. But in the AHL the style of play is very different and it’s darn hard to get anything done.

It’s of course different if you run a PP, or is the type who is really good at being able to build up speed and drive it up ice.

 

[nyr2k2]

I mean he's been playing recently with Phil Di Giuseppe and Danny O'Regan. O'Regan is a creative player. They both have NHL experience. PDG has 150 games of NHL experience. They're not generic AHL players who only know how to chip and chase, make one pass and shoot.

But that's all beside the point as I'm talking about what he does when the puck is on his stick. It's totally inaccurate to characterize things as him being a pass-first player and guys just aren't in position because it's the AHL and they don't know. There are always guys around the net waiting for the puck, there are always one-dimensional guys like Lettieri setting up to fire one-timers, etc. It's absolutely true that the AHL plays differently than the NHL and yet it's still more similar than the KHL.

So IDK. I think we all saw things in the preseason that made us say, "he's going to need to correct that to thrive in the NHL." It's still the case. I'm not criticizing him, just noting that he still has a long way to go.

 

[kovazub94]

I'm saying offensively he doesn't look substantially different to me than he did in preseason or before he left earlier in the year. I don't think anything needs to return, because it never left; it needs to adjust and refine, because it doesn't really work as it's currently constructed. IMO, anyway.

All the stuff early on with him holding the puck too long, not being decisive in when to get rid of it, trying to straddle the blue line and dispy-doo his way into the zone around 3 or 4 guys, I still see it. Maybe slightly less than before? I don't know. Again I'm happy that his all-around game has improved, but from an offensive standpoint he doesn't look remotely close to being a contributor in the NHL. And that's based off play, not numbers--I just highlight things like his dearth of SOG because that's symptomatic of the stuff I described.

Again, I think it will work itself out. But it is mildly concerning to me, particularly since I had people that apparently watched him last season telling me he could step in and score 30-40 points and be a fixture on the PP. That seems like pure fantasy based on what I've seen.

Of course but I think it’s more par for the course as all teenagers prospects need to adjust to the speed of the game and less space to make plays. That’s why I mentioned Kakko and Chytil as recent example going through the same adjustments

 

[nyr2k2]

Of course but I think it’s more par for the course as all teenagers prospects need to adjust to the speed of the game and less space to make plays. That’s why I mentioned Kakko and Chytil as recent example going through the same adjustments

I agree. I have said in almost every post I expect he'll adjust. Just feels like some excuses for him/criticisms of the AHL are being made that aren't applicable. He's just young and making a transition.

 

[bmoak]

The weird thing is that his line mates (PDG and O'Regan) are absolutely racking up shots. PDG had a game last week where he had 10 SOG. Is Kratsov passing up chances to feed his linemates?

OK, PDG has a lot more shots than O'Regan. In fact, PDG is 2nd in the AHL in SOG. Vinny is 7th.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Like a week ago people were raving over Kravtsov, what happened?

 

[nyr2k2]

Like a week ago people were raving over Kravtsov, what happened?

No one is really saying anything negative but me, LOL.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

No one is really saying anything negative but me, LOL.

Are you ashamed of yourself then?

 

[Ola]

I mean he's been playing recently with Phil Di Giuseppe and Danny O'Regan. O'Regan is a creative player. They both have NHL experience. PDG has 150 games of NHL experience. They're not generic AHL players who only know how to chip and chase, make one pass and shoot.

But that's all beside the point as I'm talking about what he does when the puck is on his stick. It's totally inaccurate to characterize things as him being a pass-first player and guys just aren't in position because it's the AHL and they don't know. There are always guys around the net waiting for the puck, there are always one-dimensional guys like Lettieri setting up to fire one-timers, etc. It's absolutely true that the AHL plays differently than the NHL and yet it's still more similar than the KHL.

So IDK. I think we all saw things in the preseason that made us say, "he's going to need to correct that to thrive in the NHL." It's still the case. I'm not criticizing him, just noting that he still has a long way to go.

Yeah, that is true. And I also meant more in general, like that with many type of prospects, we should bring down the stats expectations.

 

[eco's bones]

Fair pts.

But I wouldn’t underestimate how hard it is to score pts in the AHL for someone that primarily does so by creative offensive plays. If you pass the puck you will most likely not get it back. And of course, if Panarin played there everyone would just give him the puck and he could do his stuff.

I’ve commented on this for quite a long time. And I have seen many comments from people watching the AHL that in no shape or form take this into account, but I think it has a much bigger impact than we can imagine. Many star NHL players could certainly have many invisible nights if they played for HFD. Hockey is a team game and most offense is created by high caliber offensive plays. It’s the way kids should learn to play. But in the AHL the style of play is very different and it’s darn hard to get anything done.

It’s of course different if you run a PP, or is the type who is really good at being able to build up speed and drive it up ice.

On the other side of that defenses are pretty well structured in the AHL. Teams know how to bottle opponents up. It's a tight checking league and there will be only a handful of players at season's end who will get close to or surpass being point a game players.

 

[Ola]

On the other side of that defenses are pretty well structured in the AHL. Teams know how to bottle opponents up. It's a tight checking league and there will be only a handful of players at season's end who will get close to or surpass being point a game players.

Exactly, there are 31 teams in the AHL. The 31st highest scoring player has roughly 0.75 PPG. Given that Utica have 5 guys in the top 31, Tucson 4, Iowa 3, a bunch of teams 2, it means that only half the teams in the AHL got a forward scoring more than 0.75 PPGs to start with. Add to that, that there is a lot of Power Play scoring, its obvious just how extremely crucial it is for a player to be one of the goto guys on a working PP to put up pts.

I mean, there is a narrow tipping point in hockey between what style is best and what works. Due to that, there is also very little marginals to "mix" different styles. There are roughly three styles, the trap that we see very little of in the NHL, the pre-05'-lockout style that if by anyone was so well displayed by Calgary during their cup run in 04', i.e. basically very traditional 4th line hockey, and the high dynamic puck possession style that is so dominant in the NHL right now (with the Islanders and somewhat STL being two of a few exceptions). The tipping points between these styles are very delicate, its a bit like that paper scissors rock game. Both styles can beat the trap, if you manage to not give away pucks in the neutral zone. The high dynamic style can beat the grinding style if you can manage to make the other team play a lot more without the puck than with it.

And if we look at like the roster of Calgary in 04', what worked -- best -- for them, and like compare it to what many NHL teams have from top to bottom today, it is clear that there is an extreme difference between what worked in 04' for Calgary and the players teams look for today.

Jarome Iginla	R	26	13	9	22
Craig Conroy	C	26	6	11	17
Martin Gelinas	L	26	8	7	15
Marcus Nilson 3	L	26	4	7	11
Shean Donovan	R	24	5	5	10
Jordan Leopold	D	26	0	10	10
Robyn Regehr	D	26	2	7	9
Ville Nieminen 1	L	24	4	4	8
Chris Simon 4	L	16	5	2	7
Matthew Lombardi	C	13	1	5	6
Stephane Yelle	C	23	3	3	6
Oleg Saprykin	L	26	3	3	6
Chris Clark	R	26	3	3	6
Steve Montador	D	20	1	2	3
Andrew Ference	D	26	0	3	3
Krzysztof Oliwa	L	20	2	0	2
Mike Commodore	D	20	0	2	2
Toni Lydman	D	6	0	1	1
Denis Gauthier	D	6	0	1	1
Rhett Warrener	D	24	0	1	1
Chuck Kobasew	R	26	0	1	1
Miikka Kiprusoff 5	G	26	0	1	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I like the AHL for defenders. They start with the puck, and hence get to make plays with it, and they are the relief option for the forward's in the offensive zone. I also like the AHL as a crash course for a young player that must adjust to play in NA/against men. No doubt.

But my point is just, when I have watched the AHL the last years, and of course mostly HFD, it often look completely hopeless for good players to get production in certain situations. They try to create offense with 3-4 step plays, and after step 1 the plan is aborted and the puck just slinged up ice, on the net, deep in the attacking zone. Lias finished with like 9 games without a point. Kravy now has what 7 games without a point. Lindgren, Meskanen and Kovac didn't score. Kaut isn't scoring at all for Colorado. Tolvanen isn't scoring. Max Jones wasn't scoring. Joe Velano isn't scoring. Marko Dano. Kupari isn't scoring. Henrik Borgström isn't scoring. Wahlstrom isn't scoring. Lundeström weren't scoring.

And when you look at the players that are scoring, you are going to find plenty of players that would have been good fits on that Calgary roster above next to Nieminen, Simon, Nilsson, Yelle, Clark and co.

So what should we expect from kids in terms of production? What does some kids expect from themselves? What does it take to get production? I think these are legit questions to ask. And I don't think a well reasoned answer always is reflected in how the kids are evaluated.

 

[eco's bones]

Exactly, there are 31 teams in the AHL. The 31st highest scoring player has roughly 0.75 PPG. Given that Utica have 5 guys in the top 31, Tucson 4, Iowa 3, a bunch of teams 2, it means that only half the teams in the AHL got a forward scoring more than 0.75 PPGs to start with. Add to that, that there is a lot of Power Play scoring, its obvious just how extremely crucial it is for a player to be one of the goto guys on a working PP to put up pts.

I mean, there is a narrow tipping point in hockey between what style is best and what works. Due to that, there is also very little marginals to "mix" different styles. There are roughly three styles, the trap that we see very little of in the NHL, the pre-05'-lockout style that if by anyone was so well displayed by Calgary during their cup run in 04', i.e. basically very traditional 4th line hockey, and the high dynamic puck possession style that is so dominant in the NHL right now (with the Islanders and somewhat STL being two of a few exceptions). The tipping points between these styles are very delicate, its a bit like that paper scissors rock game. Both styles can beat the trap, if you manage to not give away pucks in the neutral zone. The high dynamic style can beat the grinding style if you can manage to make the other team play a lot more without the puck than with it.

And if we look at like the roster of Calgary in 04', what worked -- best -- for them, and like compare it to what many NHL teams have from top to bottom today, it is clear that there is an extreme difference between what worked in 04' for Calgary and the players teams look for today.

Jarome Iginla	R	26	13	9	22
Craig Conroy	C	26	6	11	17
Martin Gelinas	L	26	8	7	15
Marcus Nilson 3	L	26	4	7	11
Shean Donovan	R	24	5	5	10
Jordan Leopold	D	26	0	10	10
Robyn Regehr	D	26	2	7	9
Ville Nieminen 1	L	24	4	4	8
Chris Simon 4	L	16	5	2	7
Matthew Lombardi	C	13	1	5	6
Stephane Yelle	C	23	3	3	6
Oleg Saprykin	L	26	3	3	6
Chris Clark	R	26	3	3	6
Steve Montador	D	20	1	2	3
Andrew Ference	D	26	0	3	3
Krzysztof Oliwa	L	20	2	0	2
Mike Commodore	D	20	0	2	2
Toni Lydman	D	6	0	1	1
Denis Gauthier	D	6	0	1	1
Rhett Warrener	D	24	0	1	1
Chuck Kobasew	R	26	0	1	1
Miikka Kiprusoff 5	G	26	0	1	1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I like the AHL for defenders. They start with the puck, and hence get to make plays with it, and they are the relief option for the forward's in the offensive zone. I also like the AHL as a crash course for a young player that must adjust to play in NA/against men. No doubt.

But my point is just, when I have watched the AHL the last years, and of course mostly HFD, it often look completely hopeless for good players to get production in certain situations. They try to create offense with 3-4 step plays, and after step 1 the plan is aborted and the puck just slinged up ice, on the net, deep in the attacking zone. Lias finished with like 9 games without a point. Kravy now has what 7 games without a point. Lindgren, Meskanen and Kovac didn't score. Kaut isn't scoring at all for Colorado. Tolvanen isn't scoring. Max Jones wasn't scoring. Joe Velano isn't scoring. Marko Dano. Kupari isn't scoring. Henrik Borgström isn't scoring. Wahlstrom isn't scoring. Lundeström weren't scoring.

And when you look at the players that are scoring, you are going to find plenty of players that would have been good fits on that Calgary roster above next to Nieminen, Simon, Nilsson, Yelle, Clark and co.

So what should we expect from kids in terms of production? What does some kids expect from themselves? What does it take to get production? I think these are legit questions to ask. And I don't think a well reasoned answer always is reflected in how the kids are evaluated.

......and a lot of the guys who do put up scoring numbers in the AHL are guys who really aren't prospects anymore. The Paul Carey's and the Chris Bourque's for instance. The younger guys tend to struggle. Things have changed since Anisimov was a prospect for us. We use to say don't bring someone up until they're dominating the AHL---while some players (mostly veterans) do put up good numbers---nobody really dominates. It's a hard checking defensive league---it's also very often a very mean league and that is going to play hardest against younger European players like Kravtsov. FWIW though it took both Kreider and Miller--2/3/4 years before they got off the New York to Hartford shuttle. In that respect Chytil always was able to put up pretty decent numbers and it looks like he might be off the shuttle. Filip at 21 is doing great. Lias not so much. Ryan Lindgren's kind of game was very much AHL friendly or AHL friendlier than Libor Hajek's and Lindgren seems to have made a seamless jump to the NHL and Hajek seems more iffy in that regard. Georgiev's numbers in the AHL never were great but he always played on really bad teams---at the NHL level he puts up much better numbers. So just relying on stats isn't the be all end all to whether a player can play in the NHL.

 

[Kovalev27]

Hence why I’ve been freaking out about what Chytil did as an 18 then barely 20 year old at the AHl level as a center. If you can do what he did there you’re upside is special.

 

[Ola]

Hence why I’ve been freaking out about what Chytil did as an 18 then barely 20 year old at the AHl level as a center. If you can do what he did there you’re upside is special.

I certainly love Chytil, but not sure what it really says about his ‘upside’. Chytil is awesome at coming from being with speed, picking up a lose puck and going wide on a defender.

Look at the how the best lines in the league plays. Marchand-Bergeron-Krejci. They have everything, but the key is that they are so smart with the puck. They don’t give anything away. In guy makes a play to buy time for his teammate, and they just circle like that all over the ice, back and forth, it’s like a dance.

If I see a player with those abilities I see someone with special upside from my POV. Elias Pettersson fits that bill, Marchand does so too. Different styles but same result.

But you can be really good at just that and get very little out of it in the AHL/HFD.

 

[JimmyG89]

Hartford picks up another LHD with Hajek going down. So now Rykov, Keane and Hajek on defense. Add Raddysh, Geertsen, LoVerde, and Ebert. Solid defense for the AHL level. Someone is gonna sit and it won't be the first three guys.

 

[romba]

I certainly love Chytil, but not sure what it really says about his ‘upside’. Chytil is awesome at coming from being with speed, picking up a lose puck and going wide on a defender.

Look at the how the best lines in the league plays. Marchand-Bergeron-Krejci. They have everything, but the key is that they are so smart with the puck. They don’t give anything away. In guy makes a play to buy time for his teammate, and they just circle like that all over the ice, back and forth, it’s like a dance.

If I see a player with those abilities I see someone with special upside from my POV. Elias Pettersson fits that bill, Marchand does so too. Different styles but same result.

But you can be really good at just that and get very little out of it in the AHL/HFD.

Chytil does that too, he's just not strong enough on his skates yet to be uber successful at it. I admittedly have not watched a ton of Pettersson but I came away not very impressed after our game against Van a week or two ago. Probably an off night for him I guess.

 

[cwede]

Hartford picks up another LHD with Hajek going down. So now Rykov, Keane and Hajek on defense. Add Raddysh, Geertsen, LoVerde, and Ebert. Solid defense for the AHL level. Someone is gonna sit and it won't be the first three guys.

Geertson has already dressed as 7th D, 12th F already i think. Its he and Ebert for that 6th spot when all are healthy .
LoVerde is RH but has played Left side when Keane, Ebert, Raddysh all dress so KK, Murph have flexibility.
Rykov sat once last weekend, dont know if he's 100%. And he could get a look see, even if only for practices, w NYR soon ...

 

[JimmyG89]

Didn't watch the 1st, but went to start and saw the score is 5-0 Utica.

Think I might pass on this one.