Confirmed with Link: Hanifin signs ELC

[Carolinas Identity*]

flumadiddle

#wordoftheday

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

An organization that makes billions of dollars pays it's employees in classes. That's the reality that can't be avoided.

I get the notions of maintaining competitive balance, and minor sports, , and the general impracticality of it all. But that's an easy call for us to make, because we're not the people who are doing a job worth millions of dollars for 2 years of unwanted courses at a state university.

It's just selfishness on our own part. We like watching college sports. We like balance. Paying people a fair wage might ruin that.

And maybe in principle this is similar to High-school in some way. But the difference in scale makes them completely different practically speaking. It's billions of dollars, and not only do they make billions, they created a litany of rules making sure the players can't get anything from it.

Is there anything else like this in the world?

The only thing completely true about your statement is that there is indeed nothing in the world that compares to the U.S.'s collegiate athletics system (or it's University systems for that matter) There's nothing in the world that compares to it's high school athletics programs either. The available offerings for students to participate and develop their athletic skills in leagues tied to schools extends down to middle and even primary. Collegiate athletics is an extension of this, and quite the opposite of how you're trying to portray it, it's a benefit to all concerned. Are the rules regarding maintaining amateur status, recruitment, etc nit-picky? Sure they are. If they weren't the system wouldn't have developed to the degree and scope it has. Anyone not agreeing with the system is entirely free to not participate in it and choose another avenue of participation, development, or training.

You keep stating that college sports "makes billions". That's a disingenuous way to put it. They do generate billions in revenue, but only a very small percentage of university sports teams actually turn any kind of profit at all, and only a handful do so for any length of time. The vast majority operate in the red. When a particular sport does turn a profit the money is usually first spread within the athletic department to fund other sports and University at large. The money spent on athletes for travel, coaches and assistant coaches salaries, facilities, maintenance, recruiting, etc etc is astronomical and eats up most revenue for even the most successful programs.

This money spent (for development, training, travel, and stage where they can showcase their skills) dwarfs that which is spent on other students, the majority of which are funding their own educations on the notion that it too will benefit them when they also "go pro" and in their particular fields. The fact that nobody is going to pay to see an engineering student study as a from of entertainment but they will pay to see a player or team play is beside the point when you consider the money spent on that player-student. The student-athlete, even those not an any scholarship at all, enjoy free benefits well up-and above those that aren't just for the opportunity to play their chosen sport, and almost every one of those benefits cost a great deal of money. Why should't revenue generated by the sport they play help fund it?

The money-level running through college sports may seem like big "business money" to you, and of course they must budget, account-for, and operate in a business-llke manner, but it's not a business. If it were most collegiate-level programs wouldn't get out of the planning stage to exist in the first place and most of those that did would have folded long ago.

You could argue that there's no place for athletics in college, that it's only a place for academics. Well, those schools exist as well. There are also other avenues for player development in the hopes of achieving pro-level skills and attention AND be paid something, especially if that sport is hockey (which is the case here).

 

[DaveG]

That's really the whole crux of the NCAA debate though really... and where the confusion over it all comes in. For the most part people focus on the big money programs of NCAA sports, and on the big money sports. For good reason too, those are also the ones that typically get 99.9% of the press. Outside of NCAA Football and Mens Basketball there are very few programs that turn any kind of profit, and even those that do are usually within the "Big 5" conferences. There's exceptions to that, but not many.

To be honest for sports other then Mens Basketball and Football the current NCAA model absolutely makes sense. But for the most part these programs that are in the Big 5 conferences, especially when it comes to Mens BB, they might as well be seen as feeder programs for the pro leagues because that's exactly what they are. There's definitely players that do in fact ensure they benefit from the education they're given as part of the package, but for the most part these guys aren't in STEM programs or the like that's for sure. And that's by design from the ADs as well, and THAT is where the hypocrisy of it all comes in for me. The pro leagues treat the NCAA as a feeder league and the players quite often are denied the opportunity to pursue more challenging course work, or at the very least steered away from it, in order to keep their playing eligibility.

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

Indentured servants.

That's weird, I don't recall signing a legally-binding contract where I owed, say, 7 years of playing in return for boat passage down the Red River to Grand Forks. So either I only imagined that I (and everyone else) remained a legally autonomous person able to make free choices so therefore able to play and/or stop whenever choosing to do so in pursuit of other things, or you just don't know what indentured servitude is. Yes, yes, it's coming back to me now how authorities with badges or bounty hunters didn't chase me down and haul me back.

Was your experience playing college sports different to mine and they had this form of slavery? If so, can I ask what Third World country you're from and where did you attend? Khartoum Tech? U of DRC Kinshasa?

 

[What the Faulk]

You're right. All analogies are meant to be taken in the absolute literal.

It's truly unfortunate that people think the way you do.

 

[Navin R Slavin]

College athlete who got ride defends his experience, completely invalidates the experiences of those not like him. Nothing to see here.

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

And that's by design from the ADs as well, and THAT is where the hypocrisy of it all comes in for me. The pro leagues treat the NCAA as a feeder league and the players quite often are denied the opportunity to pursue more challenging course work, or at the very least steered away from it, in order to keep their playing eligibility.

Good points, but I don't agree with the one re hypocrisy. Those choices a student-athlete has to make whether they be big-picture career path ones or day-to-day decisions re pursuits and time commitment towards sports vs academics are merely one-foot-in-the-adult-world level, which is also sort of what college is all about. Obviously, college students aren't real people yet but they are supposed to be proto-adults learning to sort through these basic types of choices and despite still being valueless to anyone outside their immediate family, make a value judgement.

It's also a luxury choice, one that the vast majority of already-obese, scrawny, or otherwise useless university students funding their own educations from various sources don't have. Those other students are busy hardly working low-paying, crappy jobs of the type rightfully reserved for college pukes, taking out loans they won't be able to pay back within a decade (or ever if they were Art or Sociology majors) while wrongfully thinking working to do so represents some sort of Indentured Servitude, and draining their parent's retirement fund if they're from a good family or forcing their single working parent into taking a 2nd job assisting at a meth lab or as a craigslist prostitute to provide for their tuition, beer, and bong contents if they aren't. The student-athlete can also choose what school to attend based on the emphasis of academics and record of graduation rates of prior athletes, switch schools if it was false advertising, or leave school entirely in order to become a ditch digger or a Carolina Hurricane.

And the NFL and NBA using the NCAA as a feeder league isn't an issue, it's a given. American football and basketball were basically invented at the college level and it was at that level where they gained widespread recognition and popularity. It was because of that popularity and pipeline of players that pro Leagues were possible as a potential business back in the day. They were a manifestation and outgrowth of 2 sports already made popular enough by American college amateur-player systems, not the other way around.

 

[StormCast]

You're right. All analogies are meant to be taken in the absolute literal.

Correct technically, but it was the most facile of analogies but I suspect you realize that.

The student-athlete can also choose what school to attend based on the emphasis of academics and record of graduation rates of prior athletes, switch schools if it was false advertising, or leave school entirely in order to become a ditch digger or a Carolina Hurricane.

But the problem is so many schools' emphasis on academics and graduation rates also then translate into staying eligible without providing a real education. Often after knowingly admitting substandard students in the big revenue sports (i.e., football and basketball). Here's looking at you UNC. And switching school? Sure, after you sit out a year which is patently unfair in most cases.

Give them a modest stipend and pay for health insurance and long-term medical care and I think that's far fairer. Sure there is value in a scholarship but if the school itself is inherently working to keep you eligible instead of living up to its end of the bargain, then it's an unjust sham. Think of all the living room promises to the kids' families. Almost all of them like campaign promises in that they sound good but ring hollow.

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

You're right. All analogies are meant to be taken in the absolute literal.

To qualify as an analogy there must be a critical element of similarity between 2 things, so your attempt wasn't one to be taken either literally or otherwise.

It's truly unfortunate that people think the way you do.

Yes, shame on me and woe be the world that I know what indentured servitude is. You and everyone else in it is doomed unless we burn all the dictionaries and supplant letters and words with numbers and formulas in order to express stuff. Besides ebola, genocide, and unprovoked pitbull attacks on 2 year-old toddlers, I can think of nothing more unfortunate than this current ******** we call "definitions".

 

[What the Faulk]

Correct technically, but it was the most facile of analogies but I suspect you realize that.


But the problem is so many schools' emphasis on academics and graduation rates also then translate into staying eligible without providing a real education. Often after knowingly admitting substandard students in the big revenue sports (i.e., football and basketball). Here's looking at you UNC. And switching school? Sure, after you sit out a year which is patently unfair in most cases.

Give them a modest stipend and pay for health insurance and long-term medical care and I think that's far fairer. Sure there is value in a scholarship but if the school itself is inherently working to keep you eligible instead of living up to its end of the bargain, then it's an unjust sham. Think of all the living room promises to the kids' families. Almost all of them like campaign promises in that they sound good but ring hollow.

I think that's all anyone wants. 10 dollars an hour times 20 hours a week times 16 weeks times 80 kids is $250,000 (~$3,000 per athletic semester per student). Appalachian State (a "small" school) got paid four times that to go to Michigan to play one game in August of last year. I realize there are sports other than football, but play with the numbers some. If it doesn't work, well, this is why I argue for another division in the NCAA. It's no different than some other schools who field football without offering scholarships.

 

[DaveG]

Good points, but I don't agree with the one re hypocrisy. Those choices a student-athlete has to make whether they be big-picture career path ones or day-to-day decisions re pursuits and time commitment towards sports vs academics are merely one-foot-in-the-adult-world level, which is also sort of what college is all about. Obviously, college students aren't real people yet but they are supposed to be proto-adults learning to sort through these basic types of choices and despite still being valueless to anyone outside their immediate family, make a value judgement.

Yep, and in as far as this goes I'm right there with you. I made the decision personally after figuring out that life as a walk-on college soccer player and life as a serious student in a work-intensive program do not mix easily. None of this switching to Kinesiology (unless I was going to dual-major while looking to go to Med School after and focusing on Orthopedics, which I wasn't), Communications, or a few other stereotypical majors that were recommended wasn't going to happen since I knew the job prospects after college weren't that bright. Unfortunately part of it may have been also due to the fact that as a walk-on you don't have the same access to the kind of help that scholarship athletes get, but it's a decision I made and stand by.

It's also a luxury choice, one that the vast majority of already-obese, scrawny, or otherwise useless university students funding their own educations from various sources. Those other students are busy hardly working low-paying, crappy jobs of the type rightfully reserved for college pukes, taking out loans they won't be able to pay back within a decade (or ever if they were Art or Sociology majors) while wrongfully thinking working to do so represents some sort of Indentured Servitude, and draining their parent's retirement fund if they're from a good family or forcing their single working parent into taking a 2nd job assisting at a meth lab or as a craigslist prostitute to provide for their tuition, beer, and bong contents if they aren't. The student-athlete can also choose what school to attend based on the emphasis of academics and record of graduation rates of prior athletes, switch schools if it was false advertising, or leave school entirely in order to become a ditch digger or a Carolina Hurricane.

Actually that's one of the areas that I have the biggest problem with the NCAA in that regard, and not the schools themselves. If a student-athlete is not being given the educational opportunities that they are entitled to as part of their scholarship package they have to sit out a year after transferring to another school that will honor that agreement. **** that noise I say. Also **** the noise of not being able to immediately transfer after a coach leaves the position for another school or in the pros, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

[NorthStar4Canes]

Actually that's one of the areas that I have the biggest problem with the NCAA in that regard, and not the schools themselves. If a student-athlete is not being given the educational opportunities that they are entitled to as part of their scholarship package they have to sit out a year after transferring to another school that will honor that agreement. **** that noise I say. Also **** the noise of not being able to immediately transfer after a coach leaves the position for another school or in the pros, but that's a discussion for another time.

I agree.

What The Faulk
Appalachian State (a "small" school) got paid four times that to go to Michigan to play one game in August of last year.

What did the trip to play that one game in Michigan cost?

 

[What the Faulk]

Probably a small fraction of that considering they were willing to go for 600k-750k (I forget the exact figure) but it jumped to $1 million because we were FBS instead of FCS. I want to say 2007 netted 400k.

 

[StormCast]

I think that's all anyone wants. 10 dollars an hour times 20 hours a week times 16 weeks times 80 kids is $250,000 (~$3,000 per athletic semester per student). Appalachian State (a "small" school) got paid four times that to go to Michigan to play one game in August of last year. I realize there are sports other than football, but play with the numbers some. If it doesn't work, well, this is why I argue for another division in the NCAA. It's no different than some other schools who field football without offering scholarships.

No, there is a vocal contingent that wants to pay athletes more than a mere stipend. CAPA focuses primarily on health matters as they should but those are table stakes in their anticipated negotiations. They want to roll in changes in a piecemeal fashion with player payment as an eventual part of their solution.

If you really want to dive into some of the nonsense, read Gregg Easterbrook's King of Sports. He details how many school have activity fees buried in tuition bills and those funds go directly to the Athletic Departments, almost always without the knowledge of the student or their parents. So essentially a fee that doesn't benefit the student. So the money is already there to pay a stipend but many of these universities want to keep milking the cash cow.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

i took a sports history class last semester, in which one of the professors who teaches "legal aspects of business" gave a guest lecture.

the real meat of this debate as it is actually happening isn't about how much each school should pay each player, although that's a part of it.

the real meat is players not being allowed to cash in on their image and likeness. because technically their image and likeness is in no way tied to a school. in that sense, they aren't being "paid to play," they're being paid "because they play."

a nike sponsorship is something that, technically, anyone can get. if nike were stupid enough to offer me a sponsorship deal, i would take it. legally, playing college football for a university and having a nike sponsorship would be separate things.

that's the issue. they aren't allowed to cash in on who they are or why they're famous. they can maintain "amateurism" in football while still being a professional nike spokesperson. just as they can maintain "amateurism" in football while being a publix bagboy. the fact that the ncaa has cracked down on that is probably what's going to be the first to go. they are restricting a player from cashing in on HIMSELF, not his relationship with his school.

 

[What the Faulk]

^ Agreed that that's a big part of it. And the other part is, the NCAA essentially profits off everything about them. They prominently advertise and sell jerseys with their number, the NCAA video games, etc. So the NCAA is saying "you can't profit off your likeness, but we can".

 

[Cane mutiny]

I would have no problem with athletes getting paid for what they do IF with that money

1.They pay for their own tuition, and are required to take the same classes toward the
same degrees as every other student.
2. They pay for their own private tutor, which the majority would probably need if they have to take the same classes as everyone else.
3. They were graded using the same scale as every other student.

Don't kid yourself. Many of these kids belong nowhere near a college, except for their athletic ability. They get to hone their skills for 3-4 years for free, while being under the guidance of the best coaches in the world, and being showcased to their future employers in the sports world. It's not like they're getting nothing for their efforts.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

it'd also be nice that if//when they suck they could lose their scholarships.

i know that if i didn't maintain a certain gpa, i would've lost mine

 

[NotOpie]

Soooo.....Noah Hanifin #noahhanifin.....entry level contract.....other hockey related stuff.....discuss!

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

Soooo.....Noah Hanifin #noahhanifin.....entry level contract.....other hockey related stuff.....discuss!

noah hanifin = usa = hockey =

#murica

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

his quote doesnt work on my browser so idk

 

[Cane mutiny]

Can't wait to see Hanifin in action in a real game. I wish they streamed the Traverse City Tournament.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

W/ his contract now signed, how long until he gets his own Harris Teeter sub?

 

[tomdundo]

W/ his contract now signed, how long until he gets his own Harris Teeter sub?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. He needs to prove that he's as legen-(waitforit)-dary as Wade Brookbank and Ryan Bayda first.

 

[Carolinas Identity*]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. He needs to prove that he's as legen-(waitforit)-dary as Wade Brookbank and Ryan Bayda first.

i bet i know what will go on it tho: