Habs Off-season discussion Part 4 (Your ****** proposals still go here)

[PricePkPatch*]

He also brought in Aliu who was his guy back in Chicago. Maybe he's pushing MB to go for Kane?

I dont think he "pushing" MB, but i get your point.

Hes probably making a hard sell.

 

[Miller Time]

it would be nice to be an A+ every year, but to had those big fish via free agency or trade comes with the cost of overpaying or giving up so much that it sends you sideways....bergevin said we're building through the draft and that's what we should be doing....if the right deal comes around and the price for a guy like kane or o'reilly or whoever is acceptable than im sure we'll try to get them....but our best improvements are going to be found in simply adding what we already have to the lineup...getting better from within....we're gonna start introducing a lot of youth....their not all gonna stick..but eventually we're going to find what we're looking for and some players are gonna become gems...we've seen it already..we will continue to see it....draft draft draft. patience

i wouldn't say that an "A+" requires landing a major UFA player necessarily. Trades or opportunistic bargain UFA hunting can also lead to a great offseason... as long as the pieces brought in provide a significant upgrade on the roster to end the previous season.

draft + patience alone is not enough and never will be. We are a team whose success is almost entirely a reflection of our quality drafting/scouting team. Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Gallagher, Galch, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Plekanec, Markov, emelin... all of our core pieces and most of our quality depth were drafted by us.
To make that jump to contender status, we need to start maximizing the asset base we have and adding that 1-2 key pieces to address our big gaps, and it needs to be done within the cap confines (so the longer we wait, the harder it will get given many of our key pieces are approaching big contract/salary time.

 

[Halifaxhab*]

i wouldn't say that an "A+" requires landing a major UFA player necessarily. Trades or opportunistic bargain UFA hunting can also lead to a great offseason... as long as the pieces brought in provide a significant upgrade on the roster to end the previous season.

draft + patience alone is not enough and never will be. We are a team whose success is almost entirely a reflection of our quality drafting/scouting team. Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Gallagher, Galch, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Plekanec, Markov, emelin... all of our core pieces and most of our quality depth were drafted by us.
To make that jump to contender status, we need to start maximizing the asset base we have and adding that 1-2 key pieces to address our big gaps, and it needs to be done within the cap confines (so the longer we wait, the harder it will get given many of our key pieces are approaching big contract/salary time.

draft + patience (or development) sets the table. you do those correctly then you are now in a position to use the added depth to score that piece you need.

That's why I think MB stated we are building thru the draft. Our young guys, who cost less will be capable of filling the roles of more expensive guys, who can then be traded to fill the areas of need.

 

[Miller Time]

I think you might be underestimating the significance of the chances made on Defense.
I understand the uncertainty that comes with youngsters, however, Beaulieu and Tinordi are significant improvements over Bouillon and Murray.
Weaver is pretty much an older Gorges, but they play the exact same game. Adding Gilbert, another RHD who can skate and move the puck well on top of playing the PP is a major plus. Moving Emelin back on the left side is something I've been waiting to happen for 2 years now, imo, it will help him tremendously.
We go into next season with hopefully the intention of having a Markov-PK pairing that will be one of the best top pairs in the NHL, as they showed when paired together this year.

I think our defense improved significantly, and that will help our transition game by plenty. To me, the transition from defense to offense is the most important aspect of today's game.
Up front, I'm with you, definite question marks. I wasn't pleased with Vanek's performance in the POs but he was a must re-sign for me. If not him then at least Vrbata. I don't have high expectations for PAP. Unlike the defense where we're relying on kids for one bottom spot, on offense we our kids take more room and without them stepping up we're not going far.

i'm not as bullish on the D being improved as you are.

- yes, having 3 RHD is nice, but i think the positive impact of that alone is overstated.
- we're 1 injury away from having two of Weaver/Gilbert/Tinordi/Beaulieu in the top-4
- MT hasn't shown himself to be the most patient with rookie mistakes, not sure beaulieu nor tinordi will have the kind of support needed to quickly/smoothly step into large contributing roles
- losing Gallant from the coaching staff will hurt... remains to be seen who replaces him and how that impacts the special units & dressing room/practice dynamics
- Gorges shot-blocking prowess was under appreciated IMO, he had other flaws for sure, but he single-handedly kept a high volume of shots away from our net

We had Weaver playing a big role to end last season, so we've only really replaced Gorges with Gilbert (neutral swap at best), and Bouillion/Murray with Tinordi/Beaulieu (upgraded depth on paper, remains to be seen how well/quickly they make the full time jump)


it could work out well and evolve into an upgrade, but i don't think it fair to call the defense a clear upgrade from where we sit today (never mind that Subban is not actually signed yet... )

 

[Miller Time]

draft + patience (or development) sets the table. you do those correctly then you are now in a position to use the added depth to score that piece you need.

That's why I think MB stated we are building thru the draft. Our young guys, who cost less will be capable of filling the roles of more expensive guys, who can then be traded to fill the areas of need.

right... but he did just trade away one of our better W prospects + 2nd round pick for a rental... and traded a recent 1st rounder for a 5th (not implying that Leblanc was worth keeping, just bringing that up to highlight that draft remains a crapshoot even with a league-best scouting team in place)

he inherited a pretty solid prospect pool and a very good base of young talent (Price, PK, Patches, Gally, Galch/3rd overall pick, Eller, Emelin, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Bournival...) while patience is needed it's not like he was taking over a depleted talent pool.

Looking at the situation when he took over, it was evident that this summer and next were the key timeframes where a strong offseason (or deadline) body of work was necessary to make the move into "contender" status...
Timing is just as important as patience, to take advantage of favorable contract situations with young talent to pair with market-priced veteran talent.

 

[JusticeBeaver]

The habs needed a scorer at the deadline, and hooked into one at a bargain price. Any team looking at being playoff bound would be nuts to pass on that deal at the deadline. It was a small piece of the pie that helped us in some way get to conference finals.

Habs are in no position to be making strong market moves. As far as I'm concerned we are ahead of our projected timeline to turn this ship around, this wasn't a two year fix. The favourable contract situations with young talent is going to be with our next wave of prospects when guys like Galchenyuk, Eller, Subban are leading the way.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

It's the way smart teams that can't attract the top UFA built, pretty much the ONLY way you can truly built a team long term. At some point you have to put your trust in the scouting/development people in your organization and the choices they have made. This is where the Habs have too often dropped the ball in the last 15 years, when there came a time to trust the young core AND support it. I'm willing to live with a few risks as a fan if it's the price of ambition and drive. Bergy took a minor risk in trading for Vanek. I want more of that attitude going forward.

 

[bsl]

Tinordi is still just promesses. I consider Beaulieu to be more important to the future D of our team than Tinner.

That is not to say Tinner is useless or disposable. Just that if he helped us acquire something truly great, i would not dismiss it out of hand.

As opposed to trading Gallagher. That would be disastrous for our current depth.

I'd trade Gallagher before Tinordi if no other choice in 1 minute.

 

[Halifaxhab*]

right... but he did just trade away one of our better W prospects + 2nd round pick for a rental... and traded a recent 1st rounder for a 5th (not implying that Leblanc was worth keeping, just bringing that up to highlight that draft remains a crapshoot even with a league-best scouting team in place)

he inherited a pretty solid prospect pool and a very good base of young talent (Price, PK, Patches, Gally, Galch/3rd overall pick, Eller, Emelin, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Bournival...) while patience is needed it's not like he was taking over a depleted talent pool.

Looking at the situation when he took over, it was evident that this summer and next were the key timeframes where a strong offseason (or deadline) body of work was necessary to make the move into "contender" status...
Timing is just as important as patience, to take advantage of favorable contract situations with young talent to pair with market-priced veteran talent.

right. But that prospect was redundant and a 2nd is a 2nd. in return he added a piece to a team with a good shot.

draft + patience (devellopment) are just the 1st ingredients. like any recipe, putting exactly the right amount of each and in the right order is key, otherwise that Cup never turns out.

 

[Miller Time]

right. But that prospect was redundant and a 2nd is a 2nd. in return he added a piece to a team with a good shot.

draft + patience (devellopment) are just the 1st ingredients. like any recipe, putting exactly the right amount of each and in the right order is key, otherwise that Cup never turns out.

it is a bit of a contradiction to emphasize redundant 1st round drafted prospects and downplay value of a 2nd round pick, while touting drafting/patience as the road to success.

agreed on the 2nd point... though my impression is that we've added wall mart ingredients this offseason despite having a nice piece of filet in place ready to be surrounded by high quality sides... not bad, but not nearly enough if we want to cook a michelin star meal.

 

[bsl]

don't disagree that most of the players we "lost" weren't particularly important.

don't disagree that both Gio and Gorges had warts that made them expendable

don't disagree that we have some intriguing young prospects in the pipeline (but i would argue that our prospect pool is not among the best in the league)

don't disagree that we have some young players that should theoretically step up into full time roles (tinordi/beaulieu/sekac), though to expect them to step in and contribute significantly more than the players they are replacing is a big stretch.


also don't think our roster improved this offseason, in the sense that (barring additional trades/signings) we head into next season relying exclusively on young players improving/contributing greater for the team to be in a position for superior results.

Parenteau - Gilbert - Maholtra - Sekac + roster space/need for beaulieu/tinordi/bournival to play bigger roles
v.
Vanek - Gorges - Gionta - Briere + veteran/gritty depth (bouillion, murray, parros, white)

that's a pretty "C" level swap as far as roster strength goes... maybe a 'B' when factoring in the Cap realities.


call me greedy, but I was hoping for an "A+" offseason. If you want to be the best, you need to put together a few "A+" roster management offseasons to go with the top-tier drafting/scouting team we already have in place

The team got younger. That was very important. I am very pleased that Bergy evidently knew the team was too old, and acted on it. You did not even see that.

And what is 'A+'? What should, could Bergy have done instead? Please provide examples. Your post is a lot of blather.

 

[bsl]

Eklund is not stupid. He has sources and can connect the dots.

Hes just not professional and will publish anything just for a quick traffic boost.

Bit of a plodder really. 99 IQ type. Most sports 'journalists' are about the same. In fact, pretty much all of them are.

 

[bsl]

Robots don't get hurt and I bet they hit really hard too.

Not long to wait, they will play your favorite sport, and change your diaper too when you're old.

But you'll feel like something is missing...

 

[S Bah]

It's the way smart teams that can't attract the top UFA built, pretty much the ONLY way you can truly built a team long term. At some point you have to put your trust in the scouting/development people in your organization and the choices they have made. This is where the Habs have too often dropped the ball in the last 15 years, when there came a time to trust the young core AND support it. I'm willing to live with a few risks as a fan if it's the price of ambition and drive. Bergy took a minor risk in trading for Vanek. I want more of that attitude going forward.

I'm quite sure that Marc Bergevin's best is yet to come, he came in and built the best front office staff since the glory days of Slammin Sammy Pollock and Scotty Bowman. Sitting and watching the moves are very similar in patterns and provide confidence to the veteran fans that have witnessed this all before. Onward and upwards is the definite trend, sometimes the smallest moves are best and giving the young players some experienced veterans to teach them are the best moves. Still signing Sekac certainly offset the trade of S.Collberg, and made possible the entertaining playoffs, while allowing Bergy the chance to evaluate how close his team is to the final goal.

It seems only time to allow our prospects to show what they can accomplish, is the only drawback in making bigger transactions, patience is a virtue not lost on our front office that much is absolute IMHO.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

Bit of a plodder really. 99 IQ type. Most sports 'journalists' are about the same. In fact, pretty much all of them are.

While you are quite the proud armchair whiner about peoples who actually try to make a living. Yhea, so much better.

You havr nothing better to contribute than whining about the medias?

 

[Halifaxhab*]

it is a bit of a contradiction to emphasize redundant 1st round drafted prospects and downplay value of a 2nd round pick, while touting drafting/patience as the road to success.

agreed on the 2nd point... though my impression is that we've added wall mart ingredients this offseason despite having a nice piece of filet in place ready to be surrounded by high quality sides... not bad, but not nearly enough if we want to cook a michelin star meal.

It would be a contradiction....IF Collberg were a 1st rd pick....which he wasn't

Not long to wait, they will play your favorite sport, and change your diaper too when you're old.

But you'll feel like something is missing...

Hockey players....AND DIAPERS!

THIS ....MUST....HAPPEN....NOW! I deplore changing diapers.

 

[SB164]

Lol i'm watching the Weise live Q&A right now and someone asked him if he will ever be able to top the arm flexing taunt he did to Lucic. He answered that he has a few things up his sleeve and he's going to wait for the right moment this year to pull it off.

Weise actually mentioned that he tried to bury the hatchet with Lucic and asked him if he wanted to go out for lunch but apparently Lucic "wasn't interested."

 

[Runner77]

- Budaj or Tokarski likely get moved, after the playoffs Tokarski would definitely get claimed on waivers
- Likely see Moen dealt and a cheaper option brought in as a 13th/14th forward
- Wouldn't be surprised if Bergevin makes a move to get a top 6 winger after Subban and Eller are re-signed

Liking these possibilities. I agree that adding a top 6 winger could be a function of how much cap space he may have left after Subban and Eller are signed, unless he can find a trading partner that matches up salary-wise.

 

[Runner77]

Bit of a plodder really. 99 IQ type. Most sports 'journalists' are about the same. In fact, pretty much all of them are.

While there are a lot of hacks out there, you could probably make the same argument about any industry.

What's blurring the lines, is the lack of rigor and the absence of editing by third party overseers, which used to be staples in the olden days of sports journalism. Now stuff is just tweeted out, without full regard to ensuring that more than one source is validating the info and by not exercising enough scrutiny as to what passes for a source in the first place.

However, some old school guys like McKenzie still do it the right way and won't sacrifice their credibility just for the luxury of being the first to get something out.

 

[Miller Time]

The team got younger. That was very important. I am very pleased that Bergy evidently knew the team was too old, and acted on it. You did not even see that.

And what is 'A+'? What should, could Bergy have done instead? Please provide examples. Your post is a lot of blather.

?
Parros, Murray, Briere, 3 of the oldest leaving, were all brought in last off season by MB

Bouillion was also a short term plug.

gilbert is older than gorges

maholtra older than white

parenteau older than vane

the only real shift is Gionta to Sekac... but very hard to sell that Sekac will be an immediate upgrade over what Gionta brought

we got younger because the players young players in house were a clearly better option than the expensive aging depth he brought in last season... and i'd argue we could done with more youth opportunity last year, to be frank.

my "grade" isn't gospel. it's an opinion. I don't think we improved the roster significantly this offseason (at this time). I think there were potential directions out there to do so, maybe he explored some of them and got turned away or the cost was too steep... who knows.

we have the pieces in place to be a good team again next year, at some point we will have to be pro-active in piecing together a great one.

 

[Teufelsdreck]

right... but he did just trade away one of our better W prospects + 2nd round pick for a rental... and traded a recent 1st rounder for a 5th (not implying that Leblanc was worth keeping, just bringing that up to highlight that draft remains a crapshoot even with a league-best scouting team in place)

he inherited a pretty solid prospect pool and a very good base of young talent (Price, PK, Patches, Gally, Galch/3rd overall pick, Eller, Emelin, Tinordi, Beaulieu, Bournival...) while patience is needed it's not like he was taking over a depleted talent pool.

Looking at the situation when he took over, it was evident that this summer and next were the key timeframes where a strong offseason (or deadline) body of work was necessary to make the move into "contender" status...
Timing is just as important as patience, to take advantage of favorable contract situations with young talent to pair with market-priced veteran talent.

I'll try to rebut both of your posts. Your first couldn't be more pessimistic.You imply there was an opportunity to acquire some unnamed great player through trade or free agent signing, Who might that be? You fail to take into account the possible (if not probable) improvement of one or more of the young Dmen this season as well as the increased cap space (in trading Gorges the Habs recovered the second rounder they gave up in the Vanek trade). You second guess Bergevin on the Vanek rental, which seemed logical to most observers. You may be overrating Collberg, who so far hasn't impressed anyone as a top prospect. Don't you think that the youngsters might have more potential than Gorges, who is barren offensively? You ignore the obvious benefit of purging Bouillon, Murray, Briere, and White. You don't acknowledge the signing of Sekac or the draft of Scherbak. If I had the time I'd think of additional objections to your posts. I'm sure other board members could remind me.

 

[Whitesnake]

Subban + Desharnais for Kane and Trouba.

 

[Kriss E]

i'm not as bullish on the D being improved as you are.

- yes, having 3 RHD is nice, but i think the positive impact of that alone is overstated.
- we're 1 injury away from having two of Weaver/Gilbert/Tinordi/Beaulieu in the top-4
- MT hasn't shown himself to be the most patient with rookie mistakes, not sure beaulieu nor tinordi will have the kind of support needed to quickly/smoothly step into large contributing roles
- losing Gallant from the coaching staff will hurt... remains to be seen who replaces him and how that impacts the special units & dressing room/practice dynamics
- Gorges shot-blocking prowess was under appreciated IMO, he had other flaws for sure, but he single-handedly kept a high volume of shots away from our net

We had Weaver playing a big role to end last season, so we've only really replaced Gorges with Gilbert (neutral swap at best), and Bouillion/Murray with Tinordi/Beaulieu (upgraded depth on paper, remains to be seen how well/quickly they make the full time jump)


it could work out well and evolve into an upgrade, but i don't think it fair to call the defense a clear upgrade from where we sit today (never mind that Subban is not actually signed yet... )

Well you might be a little more doubtful, but I'm pretty convinced.
We also upgraded Emelin by moving him back to his spot. I remember him being a lot more efficient on his natural side. Maybe my memory is playing tricks on me, I guess we'll see, but I'm sure he'll improve.

I'll take puck moving over shot blocking every day of the week.

We got bigger, we got faster, we got more mobile, and we got much better puck moving skills. To me it's a clear upgrade, but I understand why some have doubts.

 

[Miller Time]

I'll try to rebut both of your posts.

likewise

Your first couldn't be more pessimistic.

i think a more pessimistic impression of the offseason moves is feasible... a "c" maybe "b" grade isn't exactly the harshest rating

You imply there was an opportunity to acquire some unnamed great player through trade or free agent signing, Who might that be?

no need to be dramatic. There are plenty of players who changed teams this offseason whom would have been quality additions.
to say otherwise is silly.
perfectly debatable on wether or not it would have been worth it to pay the premium (contract or trade) to land them.
like the Vanek deadline move, offseason trades and signings involve a degree of calculated risk.
We had a very conservative offseason from an acquisition perspective... the most "risky" moves we made was in moving Gorges for a pick and not re-signing our captain. (not implying either were dramatically bad moves, but clearly both of those decisions are of the "addition via subtraction/cap space" variety.

You fail to take into account the possible (if not probable) improvement of one or more of the young Dmen this season

far from that. It's obvious that we are banking heavily on that both for depth and for any significant improvement from our back-end play. Gorges/Gilbert is a later swap at best, Beaulieu/Tinordi taking a step forward (and PK/Emelin having stronger years) are requirements for the team to have an improved blue line.

as well as the increased cap space (in trading Gorges the Habs recovered the second rounder they gave up in the Vanek trade).

i'm often advocating for the value of cap space, especially having it at opportune time. Fully conceivable that MB makes an aggressive play during training camp/pre-season with some of the cap space he'll have going into the season... short of that, cap space doesn't improve the roster for opening day...

You second guess Bergevin on the Vanek rental, which seemed logical to most observers. You may be overrating Collberg, who so far hasn't impressed anyone as a top prospect.

i did not second guess it. I merely pointed out that trading away prospects near the top of your prospect pool + picks for deadline rentals is a tad inconsistent with a strong "patience/build via draft" philosophy.

Timing is of course a factor... and the Vanek move was a calculated risk i don't have an issue with... i do think it points to MB's willingness to ignore patience/building via draft.

our offseason moves were heavier on the "patience" side of things. I'm not even complaining about that approach.

but for this current offseason, from an "improving the roster" pov, he gets an average/mediocre grade.

That's not to say that I'm critiquing his overall approach or entire tenure as GM. Jury is still out in that regard... though 3 off seasons into it, it's disappointing that we still look to have a team with big 5 on 5 scoring concerns and still a lack of grit/physical presence

Don't you think that the youngsters might have more potential than Gorges, who is barren offensively?

absolutely they have potential to be much better than Gorges... Will they be more effective/impactful than him this coming season... i'm not so bullish on that (though I wouldn't be shocked, especially if MT uses them properly.)

You ignore the obvious benefit of purging Bouillon, Murray, Briere, and White.

don't remind me of the disappointing offseason we had last summer...
and as much as I like the addition of Maholtra, i'm not of the opinion that cutting white loose was necessary nor a particularly wise decision.

You don't acknowledge the signing of Sekac or the draft of Scherbak.

30 teams drafted a player in the first round (more/less)... each of them landed a player of similar or better talent/potential than Scherbak. No impact on immediate offseason grade imo b/c draft success will take a few seasons to assess.

Sekac could be another burnstrom or cervenka as much as he could be a brunner... having him pencilled in for a top-9 spot is a crapshoot at this point.

Parenteau + Sekac replacing Vanek/Gionta in our top-9 is not an upgrade no matter how you cut it.

not saying we needed to keep Vanek, or Gionta... but again, from a roster improvement pov, we're taking a step back up front unless Galch/Gally/Eller all have very productive seasons.

If I had the time I'd think of additional objections to your posts. I'm sure other board members could remind me.

perhaps a touch less emotion and a tad more objectivity in considering a post would be helpful

 

[WeThreeKings]

Subban + Desharnais for Kane and Trouba.

Desharnais hit 60 points once.. I wouldn't move him for Crosby.