Guy Lafleur's six year peak

[Michael Farkas]

How does one determine that one scored a lot of points only because they were on a great team?

That's fairly straightforward...proper talent evaluation is the answer.

 

[MadLuke]

Jagr is a sub-ppg player in the playoffs. And the wild thing? He's not really pulled down by his late career as much as you'd think. He doesn't have a ton of GP (at least as not as much as you'd expect given career length), but he's at best a "meh, he's fine" playoff performer.

Well that seem an unfair way to put it, has he his certainly under that ppg because of his old age + 24 games as a rookie.

Before going in the KHL after turning 35, Jagr had 181 pts in 169 gp, virtually the same as playoff legend Joe Sakic 188 points in 172 games.

Saying offensively Jagr >= anyone outside Lemieux/Gretzky is not really an offensive statement, during his 22-28 years old prime, Jagr separated himself from the league in playoff ppg, not by much, but cleanly

95-01, ppg 50 games or more:
Jagr....: 1.23
Lindros.: 1.14
Sakic...: 1.14
Forsberg: 1.14
Fedorov.: 1.05

Outside Lindros the others will have a statue one day for what they did in the playoff during that era and prime Lindros was prime Lindros.

 

[WarriorofTime]

That's fairly straightforward...proper talent evaluation is the answer.

Straightforward in clairvoyance yet ambiguous in human application, as people may disagree on proper talent evaluation

 

[MadLuke]

due to the fact that he played for great teams, and therefore scored a lot in the playoffs, and won four Cups.

I get the then played a lot in the playoff and won a lot, but I am not sure how obvious scored a lot follow.

Forward not on Lafleur line did not score that much in the playoff during those 4 cups wins.

Lemaire-Shutt are good first line linemate, but anything special all-time level ? With the players (offensively) the Howe-Esposito-Bossy-Messier-Beliveau and other being compared to Lafleur ? Not sure Backstrom or Ron Francis are some downgrade here.

With the big 3 they are bound to be a good offensive team, but are they a great offensive team without Lafleur ?

In 80-81 when Lafleur played only 51 games, they scored 4.314 goal a game with him (top 3 in the league rate), down to 3.86 goal per game without him, just below the league average.

The 77 without Lafleur would have been better than the 1981 obviously, Savard-Lapointe were post prime, but still not sure how great of an offensive team Lafleur less habs would have been.

 

[daver]

That's fairly straightforward...proper talent evaluation is the answer.

Is it unreasonable to question this when one player was the dominant offensive player for 7 straight seasons?

Where is the indication that Guy would not have put up the same numbers if he was on another team other than speculative opinion.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Is it unreasonable to question this when one player was the dominant offensive player for 7 straight seasons?

Where is the indication that Guy would not have put up the same numbers if he was on another team other than speculative opinion.

There's virtually nothing on paper that is "unreasonable to question" with regard to this game. The paper is trying to dumb down what happened in the game into bite sized pieces...but it rarely gets it quite right. Whether that's the case here or not, I'm not saying...but the idea that evaluating a player isn't on the table because of some number from 1976 is ludicrous.

I mean, maybe it's a correct representation of the player. Not saying it isn't...but if the work isn't being done, the answer won't present itself.

 

[VanIslander]

There are short peakers who could've been much better (among the greats) if not for injury: Orr, Bossy, Kerr, Neely, Palffy.

There are short peakers just 'cuz: Sawchuk, Lafleur.

And there are short peakers walk awayers: McGee, Dryden, ... Kenny Jonsson!

 

[daver]

There's virtually nothing on paper that is "unreasonable to question" with regard to this game. The paper is trying to dumb down what happened in the game into bite sized pieces...but it rarely gets it quite right. Whether that's the case here or not, I'm not saying...but the idea that evaluating a player isn't on the table because of some number from 1976 is ludicrous.

I mean, maybe it's a correct representation of the player. Not saying it isn't...but if the work isn't being done, the answer won't present itself.

Fair enough, the poster I was questioning seemed to imply that, in general, players on great teams see their numbers increase.

History shows that GOAT level players seem to get their numbers regardless of the quality of their linemates/team. It is really only team success that is relied on being on a "great team".

If one wants to argue that Guy wasn't as good as his numbers, that's fine but one cannot argue his statistical dominance in both the RS and POs and his team success. That is what the OP is considering.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Fair enough, the poster I was questioning seemed to imply that, in general, players on great teams see their numbers increase.

Sure...but also players on bad teams see that effect as well. The ol' "Bad Team Scorer" phenomenon. Good team? Bad team? You can generally remove team effects if you're evaluating the player...that's how you know or at least get a much better sense.

This is worth nothing, but I think I wrote somewhere here recently (while I'll going back through tape for the goalie project) that I wasn't sure that Lafleur was actually better than Perreault.

But "statistical dominance" is just a math problem, there isn't anywhere to go with that really...

 

[jigglysquishy]

This is worth nothing, but I think I wrote somewhere here recently (while I'll going back through tape for the goalie project) that I wasn't sure that Lafleur was actually better than Perreault.

Bryan Trottier notes in his book that he thought Perreault was the most skilled player in the world in the 1981 Canada Cup.

It's of particular note because he speaks of Bossy as high as possible any chance he gets. If you just read Trottier's book you'd think Bossy was the greatest player of all time, Gretzky was a middling star, and Potvin a 2nd line defenseman.

He doesn't give praise highly to non Islanders unless they played pre 1970. So him gushing over Perreault is interesting.

 

[bobholly39]

I've always felt that the following 3 players are untouchable all-time when it comes to ~5-6 years of consecutive play after the big 4:

Esposito
Lafleur
Jagr

No one in history has a better ~5-6 year stretch then them outside of the big 4. Some players have better overall careers, or better ~2-3 year peaks maybe, but for 5-6 years in a row, they are in a class apart.

I don't know off hand how I'd rank those 3 player's ~6 year peaks vs one another, but they are all 3 strong enough that I could see it go many different ways.

For what it's worth - McDavid may end up joining/surpassing this group. I wasn't really counting him since he's still current and adding, so will want to wait and see how his own ~5-6 year stretch stacks up. Good chance he'll surpass them.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I've always felt that the following 3 players are untouchable all-time when it comes to ~5-6 years of consecutive play after the big 4:

Esposito
Lafleur
Jagr

No one in history has a better ~5-6 year stretch then them outside of the big 4. Some players have better overall careers, or better ~2-3 year peaks maybe, but for 5-6 years in a row, they are in a class apart.

I don't know off hand how I'd rank those 3 player's ~6 year peaks vs one another, but they are all 3 strong enough that I could see it go many different ways.

For what it's worth - McDavid may end up joining/surpassing this group. I wasn't really counting him since he's still current and adding, so will want to wait and see how his own ~5-6 year stretch stacks up. Good chance he'll surpass them.

Unless you're only doing skaters, I'd add Hasek to your group (94-99), 5x Vezina, 2x Hart, 2x Pearson, 5x AS-1, 1-1-2-3-3 Hart finishes, 6x led the league in sv%

 

[Michael Farkas]

Bryan Trottier notes in his book that he thought Perreault was the most skilled player in the world in the 1981 Canada Cup.

Interesting. My thing about most games is I come in with a list of players I want to see (in this case, it was goalies, obviously, so it's a little different beast), so it takes a lot for a player to really stand out. Most of the games involving Buffalo, Perreault just consistently jumps off the page in an otherwise unbalanced league. He may well be the best forward of the 70's.

Same thing happened with me on some Chicago Black Hawks games back in the 60's...I was like, "woah, who the hell is 7? He's incredible." ...turns out there was a brief time where Bobby Hull wore 7 and I didn't have that in my mental rolodex. *palm to forehead*

 

[bobholly39]

Unless you're only doing skaters, I'd add Hasek to your group (94-99), 5x Vezina, 2x Hart, 2x Pearson, 5x AS-1, 1-1-2-3-3 Hart finishes, 6x led the league in sv%

I literally thought about Hasek as I was hitting "post reply", but left him off. You're right, he's probably a good fit too. He's probably stronger for 2-3 years consecutive than 5-6 though.

 

[MadLuke]

He's probably stronger for 2-3 years consecutive than 5-6 though.

Maybe not relative to the nature of his position too.

Hasek did the lead the league every year in save percentage 6 season in a row, won vezina 5 of those 6.

Many goaltender could have 2-3-4 consecutive years, Roy 88-90, Parent 73-75, (Sawchuck, Plante and other best stretch, Vasilevskiy back to back cups), if we go to 6 in a row I feel Hasek just build and build distance.

And Hasek competition for his dominace, Brodeur-Roy-Belfour-Cujo was perfectly up there all time and they played on great time to shine.

And while he was on the Sabres all this time, the Muckler Sabres of 1994 and the Ruff team of 1999 were virtually 2 different teams.

One other way to put it, Hasek not only as a good argument to be the best career of a goaltender ever has a good argument to have had the best nhl career ever (many would take Roy-plante, etc... winning cups, but still Hasek has an argument) and he did not do that much in the nhl outside those 6 years, nice splatch with the Sens, the cup with the stacked Wings obviously, but it is mostly from that 6 years.

If we exclude team success and talk just about play

McDavid will be there his 2017 to 2023 and his 2018 to 2024.

In both those 6 years stretch he has 4 Art Ross, 3 pearson, 2 hart, 32% and 20% more points than the closest non teammate

1.53 and 1.77 ppg in the playoff like it was the 80s.

86-91 or around that time of Ray Bourque could be an other one, 4xnorris against really strong competition, 3 incredible playoff run

Bruins D core during that time:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I literally thought about Hasek as I was hitting "post reply", but left him off. You're right, he's probably a good fit too. He's probably stronger for 2-3 years consecutive than 5-6 though.

Given how goalies are treated in Hart voting, I'd say a goalie winning 2 of them and being Top 3 in 5 of 6 years is otherworldly

 

[Michael Farkas]

Either that or some of the competition had fallen away and/or missed games...Hart Trophies don't exist in a vacuum.

 

[Gorskyontario]

He may well be the best forward of the 70's.

If that's the case then why do his accomplishments not add up to this reputation? Perreault played on a good team, with great linemates and a great 2nd line.

How exactly does Perreault compare to Lafleur, Esposito, Dionne who all put up consistently better numbers in the 70s? Or Bobby Clarke, who put up similar numbers while playing perfect defense. Or Trottier, who arrived later and within 2-3 years completely usurped Perreaults numbers.

If anything Perreault is in a similar category to Darryl Sittler.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Either that or some of the competition had fallen away and/or missed games...Hart Trophies don't exist in a vacuum.

Top 5 Hart votes by year for Hasek's 6 years:

1994: Fedorov, Hasek, Beezer, Gilmour, Roy
1995: Lindros, Jagr, Hasek, Coffey, Fleury
1996: Lemieux, Messier, Lindros, Jagr, Fedorov
1997: Hasek, Kariya, Lemieux, Brodeur, Selanne
1998: Hasek, Jagr, Selanne, Brodeur, Gretzky
1999: Jagr, Yashin, Hasek, Cujo, Selanne

Its not like the competition disappeared, he just beat them

 

[Overrated]

Top 5 Hart votes by year for Hasek's 6 years:

1994: Fedorov, Hasek, Beezer, Gilmour, Roy
1995: Lindros, Jagr, Hasek, Coffey, Fleury
1996: Lemieux, Messier, Lindros, Jagr, Fedorov
1997: Hasek, Kariya, Lemieux, Brodeur, Selanne
1998: Hasek, Jagr, Selanne, Brodeur, Gretzky
1999: Jagr, Yashin, Hasek, Cujo, Selanne

Its not like the competition disappeared, he just beat them

he fell off in 96 tho

 

[Michael Farkas]

Top 5 Hart votes by year for Hasek's 6 years:

1994: Fedorov, Hasek, Beezer, Gilmour, Roy
1995: Lindros, Jagr, Hasek, Coffey, Fleury
1996: Lemieux, Messier, Lindros, Jagr, Fedorov
1997: Hasek, Kariya, Lemieux, Brodeur, Selanne
1998: Hasek, Jagr, Selanne, Brodeur, Gretzky
1999: Jagr, Yashin, Hasek, Cujo, Selanne

Its not like the competition disappeared, he just beat them

I'm not saying that was the case with Hasek, per se. But everything needs context. Kariya and Jagr didn't miss any time those years (which is more heavily penalized on skaters than goalies it seems)? Looks like an influx of other goalies are there too - Brodeur (even though it's a TARP!), CuJo, Beezer.

"Otherworldly"? Maybe. Also, maybe not.

 

[Michael Farkas]

If that's the case then why do his accomplishments not add up to this reputation? Perreault played on a good team, with great linemates and a great 2nd line.

Is it at all possible that you're overstating at least one of the linemates? Notice there isn't mention of a #1 PMD either.

How exactly does Perreault compare to Lafleur, Esposito, Dionne who all put up consistently better numbers in the 70s? Or Bobby Clarke, who put up similar numbers while playing perfect defense. Or Trottier, who arrived later and within 2-3 years completely usurped Perreaults numbers.

If anything Perreault is in a similar category to Darryl Sittler.

I'm not going to do a deep dive on this right now because of the goalie project. But it's for the best given the Sittler remark haha

That literally makes less than zero.......uhhh...something. LINE!

 

[Gorskyontario]

Is it at all possible that you're overstating at least one of the linemates? Notice there isn't mention of a #1 PMD either.

I'm not going to do a deep dive on this right now because of the goalie project. But it's for the best given the Sittler remark haha

Sittler had comparable results to Perreault offensively. With less talent around him.

Who was Dionne's #1 PMD in the 70s? Before Larry Murphy in the early 80s of course.

 

[MadLuke]

he fell off in 96 tho

If 43.3 gsaa is a down year for you that a good stretch, after Zhitnik the D core was not great that year.

Buffalo that year when Hasek was not in net

without Hasek:
.896, 3.61 GAA

with Hasek:
.920, 2.83 GAA

He was maybe saving more than 0.8 goal a game over replacement. And 0.8 goals that the difference between the 1996 Red Wings offense vs an average team that year.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Is it at all possible that you're overstating at least one of the linemates? Notice there isn't mention of a #1 PMD either.

Also, Martin was clearly superior to Rene Robert, which doesn't make Robert a bad player.

Detroit Red Wings 1974-75 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 1974-75 Detroit Red Wings playing in the NHL.

www.hockeydb.com

I'm not sure Perreault would even break 90 points with that roster, yet Dionne put up 121.