Confirmed with Link: Guentzel's rights traded to Tampa for 25 3rd

[Anton Dubinchuk]

It’s hard to beat Tampa as a place to live if that’s your type of place, and they still have the pieces to make a run. I don’t blame him. Not sure how I feel about the dance that’s been going on here but I never really felt like he was staying so there’s just acceptance today. This overall experience is a big part of why I don’t like higher end rentals. They’re usually not enough to change your fortune, they’re expensive to acquire, expensive to keep….and it’s not at all weird that you don’t keep them anyways. I know a lot of people wanted us to go for it at a deadline and I think the Borg caved to that pressure a little because they’ve said themselves they don’t believe in high end rentals. I know they said Jake is special but I think it’s a combo of that and knowing this build was about to end, so why not?

“We build in the summer”. You were right about that. Don’t listen to us next time. Role players are fine as rentals. Depth.

And how!

 

[Negan4Coach]

Quite frankly the fans have a right to be pissed off about this. They're raising prices across the board and setting expectations very high for the quality of play this team will have going forward. Seeing top talent walk out the door should put some heat on the front office.

This was a bungling by a front office that now has a bit of a history in being unable to hold onto good players that aren't home grown. Hamilton and Trocheck ran from us and even Aho as a home grown player signed an Offer Sheet. It's a problem

Yeah and these pricks actually had the audacity to call me up on Friday and ask me to sign up for season tickets again.

“not only are they even more expensive- BUT NOW YOU CANT EVEN PICK THE GODDAMNED SECTION YOU WANT TO SIT IN AHAHAHAHA JUST THROW YOUR HAT IN THE RING AND PAY $20 FOR BEERS WHILE WE CANT EVEN SIGN THE GREAT PLAYER WE TRADED FOR AHAHAHAHA YOU STUPID JERK”

 

[bleedgreen]

I think the concept of “we bargain a bit too hard and it shows” can be right and at the same time coexist with the “we’re not cheap we spend to the cap” argument, and that it’s ok to be annoyed with the yin and yang of it.

It’s perfectly appropriate to wish we gave a little here or there because you believe the team might’ve been better if that had happened. Also ok to think it’s good we’re hardliners. We all know they’ll find players and get to the cap. It’s not cheap….but there’s a grind in there somewhere that does not seem to be well appreciated regardless of whether or not that was the culprit with this player. That grind gets us smart deals, but also probably costs us some players. When you’re a market that wants to be a desired location it can be tough to make that image flourish if it’s a battle to get here.

I don’t know. Until we’re losing again you don’t have a lot of ammo to argue against what we do.

 

[Negan4Coach]

It’s hard to beat Tampa as a place to live if that’s your type of place, and they still have the pieces to make a run. I don’t blame him. Not sure how I feel about the dance that’s been going on here but I never really felt like he was staying so there’s just acceptance today. This overall experience is a big part of why I don’t like higher end rentals. They’re usually not enough to change your fortune, they’re expensive to acquire, expensive to keep….and it’s not at all weird that you don’t keep them anyways. I know a lot of people wanted us to go for it at a deadline and I think the Borg caved to that pressure a little because they’ve said themselves they don’t believe in high end rentals. I know they said Jake is special but I think it’s a combo of that and knowing this build was about to end, so why not?

“We build in the summer”. You were right about that. Don’t listen to us next time. Role players are fine as rentals. Depth.

“The only thing you could build is a good case of Hemmeroids” - Gunny Highway

 

[Blueline Bomber]

So the trade ended up being:

3 months of Guentzel, Ty Smith, and Tampa's 2025 third round draft pick

For

2 more years of Bunting, Ville Koivunen, Vasily Ponomarev, Cruz Lucius and a 2024 second-round and fifth-round draft picks.

Oof, that asset management...

 

[Svechhammer]

Yeah and these pricks actually had the audacity to call me up on Friday and ask me to sign up for season tickets again.

“not only are they even more expensive- BUT NOW YOU CANT EVEN PICK THE GODDAMNED SECTION YOU WANT TO SIT IN AHAHAHAHA JUST THROW YOUR HAT IN THE RING AND PAY $20 FOR BEERS WHILE WE CANT EVEN SIGN THE GREAT PLAYER WE TRADED FOR AHAHAHAHA YOU STUPID JERK”

Yeah they called me up the week after we were eliminated asking how I wanted to be refunded for the playoffs because I didn't renew and it was either refund by CC or mail a check. I asked for the check.

That was in May. It's about to be July and I'm still waiting for it. Might have to get a lawyer involved.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

So the trade ended up being:

3 months of Guentzel, Ty Smith, and Tampa's 2025 third round draft pick

For

2 more years of Bunting, Ville Koivunen, Vasily Ponomarev, Cruz Lucius and a 2024 second-round and fifth-round draft picks.

Oof, that asset management..

It's still not terrible asset management considering how difficult it typically is to move cap space and how they did not give up a 1st in the transaction. Trading $4.5M/year for two seasons usually isn't that seamless, but the Canes took that action quite early for a player that didn't entirely fit their playstyle. Also, remember that Carolina kept the 5th rounder.

 

[Lempo]

Yeah they called me up the week after we were eliminated asking how I wanted to be refunded for the playoffs because I didn't renew and it was either refund by CC or mail a check. I asked for the check.

That was in May. It's about to be July and I'm still waiting for it. Might have to get a lawyer involved.

Should speed up now that they know they won't be needing the money for anything.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

It's still not terrible asset management considering how difficult it typically is to move cap space and how they did not give up a 1st in the transaction. Trading $4.5M/year for two seasons usually isn't that seamless. Also, remember that Carolina kept the 5th rounder.

They didn't give up a 1st, but did give up two of our closest NHL ready prospects, so...

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

And now we are 3 top 6 forwards short and possibly 4 if necas is dealt. Only good thing is we’ve got a first line spot open for someone that might be enticing for a player to sign here over somewhere else. I’d make a play on stamkos and maybe Marchessault

Unless the let go of Jarvis, we have are 2 short with Necas. Svech, Aho, Jarvis, Necas

 

[SeaBasstian]

That’s not how that works. You can only sign someone for the extra year if they were on your reserve list at the last deadline. Only way someone other than the canes could have got the 8th year is if we signed him then traded him.


I have to imagine we’d have got more than a third for a sign and trade of the best ufa on the market.

So then what was the point of trading for his rights?

 

[Svechhammer]

I think the concept of “we bargain a bit too hard and it shows” can be right and at the same time coexist with the “we’re not cheap we spend to the cap” argument, and that it’s ok to be annoyed with the yin and yang of it.

It’s perfectly appropriate to wish we gave a little here or there because you believe the team might’ve been better if that had happened. Also ok to think it’s good we’re hardliners. We all know they’ll find players and get to the cap. It’s not cheap….but there’s a grind in there somewhere that does not seem to be well appreciated whether or not that was the culprit here or not. That grind gets us smart deals, but also probably costs us some players. When you’re a market that wants to be a desired location it can be tough to make that image flourish if it’s a battle to get here.

I don’t know. Until we’re losing again you don’t have a lot of ammo to argue against what we do.

We have plenty of depth, and under the Dundon regime we tend to excel in this area because building out the margins is really where moneypuck and fancystats really excels. We are really good at getting every ounce out of marginal pieces. Our biggest weakness has always been getting that elite level offensive skill that makes us deadly up front and allows that depth to be more impactful as opposing teams have to load up to stop our top line allowing our depth to take over.

You have to pay to bring in that top talent. You can't moneypuck that elite talent. There will always be a team willing to pay market rates for elite talent, you can't squeeze them. And that is where we struggle badly in this league. We are always looking to win the negotiation, we always have to squeeze everyone for whatever we can get. And those players always go elsewhere and we are left wondering why we struggle in the playoffs when we go up against legitimate contenders.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

They didn't give up a 1st, but did give up two of our closest NHL ready prospects, so...

For years fans complained about not going after high end rentals, which only work for one team. That’s a small cost for a rental of his caliber. They tried it and it didn’t work and didn’t cost any of the teams top prospects or a first.

 

[DaveG]

Seriously, this is a "tell me there was tampering without telling me there was tampering" trade to happen at this point.

 

[Daeavorn]

Now maybe we can work on Jarvis's contract, get him signed and then see what we can do about Necas.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

So then what was the point of trading for his rights?

Exclusive negotiation rights for 1 day.

 

[Brock Anton]

Now maybe we can work on Jarvis's contract, get him signed and then see what we can do about Necas.

There’s far more pressing needs than Jarvis right now. He’s not getting an OS, so he can afford to wait.

 

[DaveG]

So then what was the point of trading for his rights?

To make it look like everything was on the up and up regarding their trades yesterday when he just about immediately comes to terms on a contract this afternoon

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

We have plenty of depth, and under the Dundon regime we tend to excel in this area because building out the margins is really where moneypuck and fancystats really excels. We are really good at getting every ounce out of marginal pieces. Our biggest weakness has always been getting that elite level offensive skill that makes us deadly up front and allows that depth to be more impactful as opposing teams have to load up to stop our top line allowing our depth to take over.

You have to pay to bring in that top talent. You can't moneypuck that elite talent. There will always be a team willing to pay market rates for elite talent, you can't squeeze them. And that is where we struggle badly in this league. We are always looking to win the negotiation, we always have to squeeze everyone for whatever we can get. And those players always go elsewhere and we are left wondering why we struggle in the playoffs when we go up against legitimate contenders.

It's not that the Canes won't pay for top-line talent. It's that they are more cautious of the average aging curves than almost any team in the league. If other clubs besides Carolina start showing more caution there in UFA, the market will naturally correct itself.

 

[Svechhammer]

For years fans complained about not going after high end rentals, which only work for one team. That’s a small cost for a rental of his caliber. They tried it and it didn’t work and didn’t cost any of the teams top prospects or a first.

At the time I said I would only like the Guentzel trade if he extended. You only make that trade giving up those pieces if you extend him. And now that he is gone, it's borderline one of the worst trades we've made in a while.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

So then what was the point of trading for his rights?

Getting a jump on negotiating with him before all teams are able to.

As others have said, this might be a sign and trade. We will have to wait and see, I suppose.

It is definitely not possible to trade for a ufa’s rights and then sign them to an 8 year deal yourself, though.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I think the concept of “we bargain a bit too hard and it shows” can be right and at the same time coexist with the “we’re not cheap we spend to the cap” argument, and that it’s ok to be annoyed with the yin and yang of it.

It’s perfectly appropriate to wish we gave a little here or there because you believe the team might’ve been better if that had happened. We all know they’ll find players and get to the cap. It’s not cheap….but there’s a grind in there somewhere that does not seem to be well appreciated whether or not that was the culprit here or not. That grind gets us smart deals, but also probably costs us some players. When you’re a market that wants to be a desired location it can tough to make that image flourish if it’s a battle to get here.

I don’t know. Until we’re losing again you don’t have a lot of ammo to argue against what we do.

And how, yet again.

You’re right that the focus has been on the perceived “swings and misses” and not the fact that it has been the very ruthless efficiency that you’re getting mad about that has consistently gotten us the “at bats” in the first place.

And yet, they aren’t above criticism and I agree that Dundon’s negotiation tactics probably have gotten in the way of good will on more than one occasion. I don’t doubt that “f*** that guy” has been an informal reason for talks breaking down at least once (perhaps even with Waddell). The Forslund thing still doesn’t sit right with me 4 years later; the rounding error that means keeping one of the most important figures happy and in the fold shows how ruthless the efficiency model is. It’s not how Mark Cuban or Jerry Jones would handle things, that’s for sure.

I’d like to think there’s room for risk averse efficiency and big swings, and that feels like a dial the Borg is still trying to fine tune. But I’m not that broken up about it because I’m with you - re-signing never felt likely, and frankly, may not be prudent. And certainly lamenting the idiots in the front office or whatever isn’t a commensurate response. Disappointment I get - consistent over the top anger at the front office remains excessive.

 

[bleedgreen]

So then what was the point of trading for his rights?

He’ll be signed before the bell tolls tomorrow. Maybe even today.

 

[Brock Anton]

It's not that the Canes won't pay for top-line talent. It's that they are more cautious of the average aging curves than almost any team in the league. If other clubs besides Carolina start showing more caution there in UFA, the market will naturally correct itself.

The market for elite talent isn’t even out of whack.

Also reportedly nickel and diming someone when their ask seems completely reasonable isn’t “showing caution”, it’s being f***ing stupid.

 

[Svechhammer]

It's not that the Canes won't pay for top-line talent. It's that they are more cautious of the average aging curves than almost any team in the league. If other clubs besides Carolina start showing more caution there in UFA, the market will naturally correct itself.

You know which teams aren't cautious about aging curves? The ones that load up and win the Cup on the backs of great players in their prime. The teams that don't give a shit about 6 years from now if it means loading up for the next 4.