GTHL investigating improper sales of teams

[OHL4Life]

Certainly not, I'm just not of the belief corruption, dirty politics, and super teams benefit minor hockey and player dev. I'm still open to points to the contrary!

ok, what would be your definition of corruption and super teams? im just trying to understand how you see them connected is all.

 

[DWI Dale]

ok, what would be your definition of corruption and super teams? im just trying to understand how you see them connected is all.

if you're asking me for a definition of corruption in minor hockey, in a thread about corruption in minor hockey, you might be the wrong guy to discuss the subject with. it's got major Fischy vibes tbh!

 

[OHL4Life]

if you're asking me for a definition of corruption in minor hockey, in a thread about corruption in minor hockey, you might be the wrong guy to discuss the subject with. it's got major Fischy vibes tbh!

im asking for your version of it, everyone views it differently. are you talking about the selling of organizations, or are you talking about super teams? they are all different topics.

corruption is a very general term, im asking for a specific viewpoint of what you think corruption is and how it impacts aaa hockey.

 

[ScoutLife4]

I'm not sure corruption is even the right word.
Teams are finding way to skirt rules or take advantage of grey areas in some of the cases I've seen.
I try and stay as far away from anything minor hockey as I possibly can but the stories I hear are absolutely incredibly concerning as to what lengths parents with money will go to.
I'm not even sure what's true and what is fake news anymore but there are quite a few stories about teams being sold to someone with money in exchange for decision making input.
Imagine being the coach on one of these teams that has to do what the son of the construction company's Dad tells him to do? lol. -Why would you even stick around? -The only answer I can come up with is they are being compensated above other staff.

 

[OHL4Life]

I'm not sure corruption is even the right word.
Teams are finding way to skirt rules or take advantage of grey areas in some of the cases I've seen.
I try and stay as far away from anything minor hockey as I possibly can but the stories I hear are absolutely incredibly concerning as to what lengths parents with money will go to.
I'm not even sure what's true and what is fake news anymore but there are quite a few stories about teams being sold to someone with money in exchange for decision making input.
Imagine being the coach on one of these teams that has to do what the son of the construction company's Dad tells him to do? lol. -Why would you even stick around? -The only answer I can come up with is they are being compensated above other staff.

that for sure happens, but i struggle with the fact that its always a bad things.

ill use the titans this year. a parent is sponsoring the team, but in exchange no one is paying fees, they have free clothes, the coaches have ipads on the bench for teaching. a few low income kids get to play aaa for free. the parent who is sponsoring it's kid is a top 40 kid and may make the usntdp.

so is that bad?

the huron perth lakers have a ton of kids from outside their area, are they evil?

we look at everything black and white, but it never is.

 

[ScoutLife4]

that for sure happens, but i struggle with the fact that its always a bad things.

ill use the titans this year. a parent is sponsoring the team, but in exchange no one is paying fees, they have free clothes, the coaches have ipads on the bench for teaching. a few low income kids get to play aaa for free. the parent who is sponsoring it's kid is a top 40 kid and may make the usntdp.

so is that bad?

the huron perth lakers have a ton of kids from outside their area, are they evil?

we look at everything black and white, but it never is.

It's probably only bad for the players are no longer good enough to make the team because better kids want to play there. -Those are likely the parents going to OHF, Hockey Canada complaining.
I often hear that so much time is spent on investigating false claims that the serious claims are often forgot about or not properly investigated.
That Titans situation sounds pretty good for the kids though.

 

[OHL4Life]

It's probably only bad for the players are no longer good enough to make the team because better kids want to play there. -Those are likely the parents going to OHF, Hockey Canada complaining.
I often hear that so much time is spent on investigating false claims that the serious claims are often forgot about or not properly investigated.
That Titans situation sounds pretty good for the kids though.

and i dont know for sure because im not around it enough, but i think often lots of kids play for free, and if they are good enough kids who dont have a ton of money play for free, because of these teams. I dont know that many people look at it that way.

i also have been hearing for 30 plus years moms and dads complaining about politics and corruption when almost every time i look into it its just a kid thats not good enough. i was on the board locally and we'd get 5/6 complaints a month and most of the time it was a parent who had zero clue about his kid, unfair expectations, etc. complaining about a 'hand picked coach' who didnt play their kid enough. it wasnt about corruption, it was about their kid. if their kid was the top guy, they wouldnt have complained. i wish we'd hold parents as accountable as we do some organizations, they chase away more good hockey people then anything.

i have no doubt there are issues and crazy parents doing stupid things with sponsoring things. but that also happens in real life, so why would we expect hockey to be different?

so thats why i want to know why someone has an issue with corruption what they mean by it.

 

[DWI Dale]

so thats why i want to know why someone has an issue with corruption what they mean by it.

are you seeking for specific examples? asking for a definition of corruption in minor hockey is a great question for chatGPT though! lol

i would think the subject of this thread is a prime example of corruption in minor hockey. when money is changing hands under the table for the illegal sale of non-profit teams i don't know what other verbage is more appropriate.

i think anytime money is changing hands with an explicit or implicit outcome expected, that could be corruption.

 

[HockeyPops]

For me, it's the stories about a team cooking the books. Either to pay the coach more, or to give a kid a free ride and have the other parents unknowingly pay for it. Also, lots of examples putting a parent on the staff so they can have financial gain at the expense of other parents. Basically, if they have to hide what they are doing, it probably qualifies as corruption in my books.

Also, that story about Niagara drafting all those kids off the same minor hockey team/same agent so they could get university offers.

Getting sponsorship is a good thing if there are no strings attached. But that's not always the case.

Open borders will make things interesting. Likely more free rides as players can truly go anywhere. If the money comes from sponsors, great. If it comes from other parents, not great.

+1 to parents ruining it for everyone.

 

[OHL4Life]

are you seeking for specific examples? asking for a definition of corruption in minor hockey is a great question for chatGPT though! lol

i would think the subject of this thread is a prime example of corruption in minor hockey. when money is changing hands under the table for the illegal sale of non-profit teams i don't know what other verbage is more appropriate.

i think anytime money is changing hands with an explicit or implicit outcome expected, that could be corruption.

sure, but how does one person running a team hurt players? for all we know that person is an awesome owner or the program. what if he comes in and brings a great development plan?

i think there probably are times when its a bad thing, see the stu hyman situation where money 'probably' was funneled from one team to another, but there's no way to truly know if the person owning the team is wrong. gagner and tavares recently 'bought' the marlies and are reforming it to a higher standard. that would be what you would define as 'corruption', so thats automatically bad? I hope you get my point.

 

[DWI Dale]

For me, it's the stories about a team cooking the books. Either to pay the coach more, or to give a kid a free ride and have the other parents unknowingly pay for it. Also, lots of examples putting a parent on the staff so they can have financial gain at the expense of other parents. Basically, if they have to hide what they are doing, it probably qualifies as corruption in my books.

Also, that story about Niagara drafting all those kids off the same minor hockey team/same agent so they could get university offers.

Getting sponsorship is a good thing if there are no strings attached. But that's not always the case.

Open borders will make things interesting. Likely more free rides as players can truly go anywhere. If the money comes from sponsors, great. If it comes from other parents, not great.

+1 to parents ruining it for everyone.

There's definitely some blame for the parents but at the same time they're doing what they think is best for their child, something most of us parents do for our kids. It definitely can go to extreme examples but most of us say things like "i'd step in front of a bus for my kid" and that's not hyperbole.

Hockey by it's very nature has become very classist, which imo harms our hockey programs and player development. Pay to play schemes, profiting from non-profit teams etc is absolutely going to occur unless the associations themselves do a better job of regulating, monitoring, and enforcing league policy.

And if a team is going to struggle recruiting players, or are going to get slaughtered in the standings simply because they choose to abide by the rules, we are doing a great disservice to player development within Associations and across the entire province/country.

 

[OHL4Life]

For me, it's the stories about a team cooking the books. Either to pay the coach more, or to give a kid a free ride and have the other parents unknowingly pay for it. Also, lots of examples putting a parent on the staff so they can have financial gain at the expense of other parents. Basically, if they have to hide what they are doing, it probably qualifies as corruption in my books.

Also, that story about Niagara drafting all those kids off the same minor hockey team/same agent so they could get university offers.

Getting sponsorship is a good thing if there are no strings attached. But that's not always the case.

Open borders will make things interesting. Likely more free rides as players can truly go anywhere. If the money comes from sponsors, great. If it comes from other parents, not great.

+1 to parents ruining it for everyone.

those for me are fair.

niagara is for me less of a minor hockey issue and more of a lack of morals by the team. its a joke that the league claims they investigated that, but never talked to any of the scouts in the room.

im all for open borders personally, it needs to force organizations to be better and build programs for players to stay. if a player wants to play for a coach in ottawa but lives in windsor, and the parents are good with it, why hold the kid back?

 

[donjohnson]

It's not just that way in hockey, all travel sports are filled with corruption even on smaller teams where the coaches aren't paid. We've done travel baseball for years and on our first organization (played for 3 years) we did all sorts of fundraisers including getting sponsors and I have no idea what my money went towards. The final year the pre-year packet included information about starting to fundraise for a tournament that was 2 years down the line. Oh, did I mention they were cutting 2-3 kids per year...sure, I'll fundraise for a trip that I may not even play in...that was the last straw for us.

 

[DWI Dale]

sure, but how does one person running a team hurt players? for all we know that person is an awesome owner or the program. what if he comes in and brings a great development plan?

i think there probably are times when its a bad thing, see the stu hyman situation where money 'probably' was funneled from one team to another, but there's no way to truly know if the person owning the team is wrong. gagner and tavares recently 'bought' the marlies and are reforming it to a higher standard. that would be what you would define as 'corruption', so thats automatically bad? I hope you get my point.

if they acquired the team illegally that's bad. full stop. i truly don't care how great they do if they're buying control of a team under the table.

but it's also fair to analyze team leadership on a case by case basis, and determine how they are leveraging their power. if they "own" a team because their child is a marginal AA caliber player, but dad wants them to be AAA, whose interests is that serving? is there a child playing on the AA squad that deserves to be on the AAA? is it fair to the AAA teammates that some members of their team are only there because of who they know, or what their parent does for a living? we saw this play out in the OHL and they were rightfully called out for it.

i agree that there is no black and white, that's why associations must be willing to sift through the various shades of grey and call out impropriety, not allow "open secrets" like team sales and "pay to play" schemes to fester. i try to look at it from the perspective of what's best for player development across the province, not what's best for a single team in a single association.

 

[OHL4Life]

It's not just that way in hockey, all travel sports are filled with corruption even on smaller teams where the coaches aren't paid. We've done travel baseball for years and on our first organization (played for 3 years) we did all sorts of fundraisers including getting sponsors and I have no idea what my money went towards. The final year the pre-year packet included information about starting to fundraise for a tournament that was 2 years down the line. Oh, did I mention they were cutting 2-3 kids per year...sure, I'll fundraise for a trip that I may not even play in...that was the last straw for us.

and thats a very good point. we often read 'hockey culture' on here, but its not hockey culture, its the world we live in where youth athletics is now for profit.

 

[donjohnson]

and thats a very good point. we often read 'hockey culture' on here, but its not hockey culture, its the world we live in where youth athletics is now for profit.

If I was running a travel team I'd have a Google Spreadsheet that was always accessible by everyone. All of the expenses would be plugged in and every kid would get an equal share. If you get a sponsor, your number goes down, if you sell more mums than the other kids, your number goes down more than the other kids. Then if I just want to write a check for the whole thing, I don't have to piss around with the stupid fundraising.

Where is gets sketchy is when there's an "organizational-wide" fundraiser that you have zero clue what the money goes toward. That first team we were with had no indoor-location or anything like that yet we had to raise money for the "organization". I know they've got to pay some insurance and things like that but it just seems like a total boondoggle.

 

[HockeyPops]

At risk of taking this thread completely off topic, wondering others thoughts on the following proposal.

OHF Premiership League U12-U16

Form the league with 8 teams at U12. Top team from each league (GTHL, Alliance, SCTA, ETA, NOHA) plus 3 more teams. Could have a play in tournament or just have selection committee.

Each age group has a different 8 teams based on merit.

8 teams play in their own premiership league for the season.

Each year, 8th and 7th place (and 6th?) are automatically relegated back to their member organizations. These teams are replaced by top two (or three?) teams based on play in tournament, with the caveat that the 5 member organizations must always be represented.

Reasoning

Now with open borders, super teams are going to happen. This format attempts to reward and incentivize strong programs to stay together and build on successful seasons, while trying to keep an option open geographically close to home for all players.

Inspired by the English Premiership league and the Brier, where it is merit-based. Promotion and relegation would ensure the league stays strong, right up to U16.

Might cause issues in areas like the NOHA where pulling a team out of each age group might make it difficult to run a league with the remaining teams.

If you can build a great program in Belleville, Windsor, or the Sault, it would allow those teams to stay together and still play top competition all year. Likely makes the top teams more accessible to those players unable ($) to move to Toronto. But it also keeps these teams honest; players can go elsewhere if they don't like the direction the team is going.

Like it? Hate it?

 

[OHL4Life]

At risk of taking this thread completely off topic, wondering others thoughts on the following proposal.

OHF Premiership League U12-U16

Form the league with 8 teams at U12. Top team from each league (GTHL, Alliance, SCTA, ETA, NOHA) plus 3 more teams. Could have a play in tournament or just have selection committee.

Each age group has a different 8 teams based on merit.

8 teams play in their own premiership league for the season.

Each year, 8th and 7th place (and 6th?) are automatically relegated back to their member organizations. These teams are replaced by top two (or three?) teams based on play in tournament, with the caveat that the 5 member organizations must always be represented.

Reasoning

Now with open borders, super teams are going to happen. This format attempts to reward and incentivize strong programs to stay together and build on successful seasons, while trying to keep an option open geographically close to home for all players.

Inspired by the English Premiership league and the Brier, where it is merit-based. Promotion and relegation would ensure the league stays strong, right up to U16.

Might cause issues in areas like the NOHA where pulling a team out of each age group might make it difficult to run a league with the remaining teams.

If you can build a great program in Belleville, Windsor, or the Sault, it would allow those teams to stay together and still play top competition all year. Likely makes the top teams more accessible to those players unable ($) to move to Toronto. But it also keeps these teams honest; players can go elsewhere if they don't like the direction the team is going.

Like it? Hate it?

it would be interesting. costs would be tight depending on how it would be funded.

i think that would the box thinking is never a bad idea.

would they keep playing in the omha or alliance or gthl while also in this division, or leave it and play in this league only?

would be hard to get in 40 games if you are london and have to play belleville 10 times