Grub's Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | It's All Gone Pete Tong

[Flik]

I don’t think it’s a bully situation, I think it’s a person who has high expectations on himself and wants everybody around him to have the same expectations.

Let’s not forget, he was our best player in the playoffs, this is a guy who thrives in the playoffs.

I think it’s a personality clash between two people

It most certainly sounds like a bully situation to me, the issue seems to be that in some ways Miller is correct about a few things that he's saying to Petey, but the message has turned toxic.

What a f***ed up situation.

Classic Canucks luck, we finally look primed to contend again, but we bungle up our D corps this year and then a situation that's been brewing for years between our top two Cs finally boils over.

Oh well, the beat goes on~

 

[Canucker]

So much ridiculous and toxic speculation going on around here...Miller is a bully, EP is too soft mentally, Tocchet and management bungled this relationship. Meanwhile, we've been decimated by injuries, relying on a shockingly bad defense and yet we're still clicking at a .583 winning percentage...and we have people fully on board with tanking the season....what a f***ed up fanbase we have around here.

 

[mriswith]

So much ridiculous and toxic speculation going on around here...Miller is a bully, EP is too soft mentally, Tocchet and management bungled this relationship. Meanwhile, we've been decimated by injuries, relying on a shockingly bad defense and yet we're still clicking at a .583 winning percentage...and we have people fully on board with tanking the season....what a f***ed up fanbase.

The uproar is almost entirely due to managements public messaging against the players and not because of a toxic fanbase. Mgmt is out here fanning the flames almost as hard as they can.

But you're 100% right about a shockingly bad defense... and complete radio silence from mgmt on their glaring failure this offseason in that regard. They seem perfectly happy to scapegoat EP for only pacing 70 points meanwhile we're icing 6 bottom pairing at best dmen who can't pass, defend or hold possession.

 

[Canucker]

The uproar is almost entirely due to managements public messaging against the players and not because of a toxic fanbase. Mgmt is out here fanning the flames almost as hard as they can.

But you're 100% right about a shockingly bad defense... and complete radio silence from mgmt on their glaring failure this offseason in that regard. They seem perfectly happy to scapegoat EP for only pacing 70 points meanwhile we're icing 6 bottom pairing at best dmen.

Management should be railing on the players though...they haven't performed adequately. It's been pretty underwhelming from both Miller and EP who are the main drivers of the offense.

 

[supercanuck]

Management should be railing on the players though...they haven't performed adequately. It's been pretty underwhelming from both Miller and EP who are the main drivers of the offense.

You're correct. Both have been underwhelming, but unfortunately management is clearly just railing on one of those 2.

 

[Canucker]

You're correct. Both have been underwhelming, but unfortunately management is clearly just railing on one of those 2.

Well...I'd argue that he was asked directly about EP....I didn't see anything about asking if Miller is a problem, plus after Miller's leave of absense, I'm sure its probably something that they want to tread lightly on.

Plus, I'm sure Allvin probably has a bad taste in his mouth over EP's contract negotiations last season....the guy was difficult to deal with, wanted to be paid like one of the top players in the league and has kind of sunk back into the dolldrums offensively. Has to be frustrating.

 

[mriswith]

Management should be railing on the players though...they haven't performed adequately. It's been pretty underwhelming from both Miller and EP who are the main drivers of the offense.

Do you think they should be strongly stoking trade rumours with Miller and EP again?

 

[supercanuck]

I feel like JT is the kind of guy who would bully the Sedins for that Marchand punching thing in 2011. I'm sure half of HF would agree with him, and half would not. Unfortunately, for EP, the former and current management group are clearly the OBC types who would have sided with JT. It's clearly not a fit and I'm shocked that this management team resigned him to that contract knowing this.

 

[Canucker]

Do you think they should be strongly stoking trade rumours with Miller and EP again?

Meh...I don't think he's "stoking" per se...I think he's just showing his frustration and wants the players to get the message that they need to start performing "or anything can happen"....it just so happens that EP is the guy who might have taken the brunt of that.

 

[supercanuck]

Well...I'd argue that he was asked directly about EP....I didn't see anything about asking if Miller is a problem, plus after Miller's leave of absense, I'm sure its probably something that they want to tread lightly on.

Plus, I'm sure Allvin probably has a bad taste in his mouth over EP's contract negotiations last season....the guy was difficult to deal with, wanted to be paid like one of the top players in the league and has kind of sunk back into the dolldrums offensively. Has to be frustrating.

Call me skeptical, but it's an IMac article and whatever was asked was probably given to him in advance.

Personally, I never saw anything wrong with EP saying he won't negotiate until the end of season. Wouldn't be the first time a player has done that. It became the in-season distraction that he was trying to avoid. Management basically forced/threatened him to sign.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

This is very clearly, an off ice, and in practice work ethic thing. Not a micro manage play by play issue.

It has been apparent for a long time that EP spends more time at the beach and in photoshoots than the gym. His skills diminish every season, as early as his 2nd year. His shot is worse, his skating to start most seasons is brutal. Players, coaches and now brass have all called him on it. It's year 7 now, and is no longer acceptable.

Contrast to players like Horvat and Hughes. Bo was seen as a slug prospect, who worked with skating coaches to become our best skater in a couple years. Then steadily improved every season. Hughes turns weaknesses into strengths in a matter of months, because he trains hard against top players like his brothers.

While JT can play casual AF at times, he keeps himself physically capable of matching against the McDrai's and Mackinnons of the league, all while juggling a busy family life.

 

[Canucker]

Call me skeptical, but it's an IMac article and whatever was asked was probably given to him in advance.

Personally, I never saw anything wrong with EP saying he won't negotiate until the end of season. Wouldn't be the first time a player has done that. It became the in-season distraction that he was trying to avoid. Management basically forced/threatened him to sign.

I don't have a problem with EP's contract tactics either...you do what you think is best for yourself. However, I also don't have a problem with management wanting to try and get his contract resolved sooner than later...and I don't have a problem with management having higher expectations for EP since his contract demands were met. Not being in the room or seeing all the interactions makes it more difficult to really assess where the problems actually stem from and if they are minor or major, and if they can be fixed, or if they even need to be.

 

[supercanuck]

I don't have a problem with EP's contract tactics either...you do what you think is best for yourself. However, I also don't have a problem with management wanting to try and get his contract resolved sooner than later...and I don't have a problem with management having higher expectations for EP since his contract demands were met. Not being in the room or seeing all the interactions makes it more difficult to really assess where the problems actually stem from and if they are minor or major, and if they can be fixed, or if they even need to be.

You mentioned that "the guy was difficult to deal with" during contract negotiations which I assumed implied that you didn't think his request (not really a "tactic", IMO) was reasonable.

 

[VanJack]

I'm sure there are lots of teams around the NHL where some players in the room can't stand each other.

The difference is, they play in markets where the only things the media and people really care about are the NFL, NBA, MLB and College Football, not necessarily in that order.

Disfunction in the room the local NHL team?...Yawn!...tell me something really important.

 

[Canucker]

You mentioned that "the guy was difficult to deal with" during contract negotiations which I assumed implied that you didn't think his request (not really a "tactic", IMO) was reasonable.

For management I'm sure it was difficult to deal with...I believe it was a tactic, but who really knows for sure?

 

[TruGr1t]

I'll probably get flamed for this one, but is it that outrageous to think Miller may have hit peak in his age 27-30 seasons (not coincidentally the statistical peak of most NHLers) and is now on a downward trajectory?

 

[VanJack]

I'll probably get flamed for this one, but is it that outrageous to think Miller may have hit peak in his age 27-30 seasons (not coincidentally the statistical peak of most NHLers) and is now on a downward trajectory?

That's basically why--if it comes down to Miller or Pettersson--Miller has to be the first guy out the door.

A team acquiring him will probably get two or three decent seasons out of him; but the back-half of that $8m contract has the potential to be pretty ugly.

 

[CanadianPirate]

I'll probably get flamed for this one, but is it that outrageous to think Miller may have hit peak in his age 27-30 seasons (not coincidentally the statistical peak of most NHLers) and is now on a downward trajectory?

That's a very reasonable thought and it's why I think if they trade Petterson the Canucks will have slammed their contention window shut.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I must say I am loving the tone of these thread themes.

What a f***ed up situation.

Beyond this, what are we capable of as fans to make the team better?

Y'all are aware it's possible no one is the victim?

 

[Canucker]

That's basically why--if it comes down to Miller or Pettersson--Miller has to be the first guy out the door.

A team acquiring him will probably get two or three decent seasons out of him; but the back-half of that $8m contract has the potential to be pretty ugly.

Whats worse, Miller at $8m performing like a 2nd-3rd line center in the last few years of his deal, or EP at $11.6 for the remainder of his contract as a 70-80pt center? IMO either scenario is sub-optimal and both quite possible.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

I would normally be 50/50 on trading EP or JT but:

1. Miller is in his 30’s and EP is hitting his peak age.
2. Miller seems to rub people the wrong way.
3. Miller’s style of play lends to a drop off at a faster rate than someone like EP.
4. Miller being told to take a leave of absence from the team for an extended period.
5. EP’s play with Miller out.
6. Teams might value Miller’s skill set more.

So as much as mgmt and coaching might be trying to “lite a fire under” under EP, Miller is the one to trade if necessary IMO.

 

[David71]

what if miller doesnt sign that 8 yr deal? should have traded him before. horvat gets kept. but the team doesnt aquire hronek. hindsight 2020 so much drama with the canucks.

 

[ManVanFan]

The Vancouver Canucks are 20-23-5 without Elias Pettersson all-time.​

Miller does not miss many games. The 10 he missed this year they went 5-3-2. Miller has only missed 7 other games as a Canuck.

 

[mriswith]

Whats worse, Miller at $8m performing like a 2nd-3rd line center in the last few years of his deal, or EP at $11.6 for the remainder of his contract as a 70-80pt center? IMO either scenario is sub-optimal and both quite possible.

When Miller is bad, he's bad and it stands out. You finish watching the game thinking wow Miller sucked tonight.

When EP is bad, he's just invisible and you forget he even played. He's quietly putting up a solid defensive performance, quietly driving possession and winning his matchups even without Hughes, and disappointingly not on the scoresheet at the end of the game. The most you remember from his game is the 3x he fell down on the ice for little to no reason.

I think there's way more risk with Miller than EP. EP's downside is still a ~7M player, Miller's downside is get him off the team asap.

 

[Diversification]

I would normally be 50/50 on trading EP or JT but:

1. Miller is in his 30’s and EP is hitting his peak age.
2. Miller seems to rub people the wrong way.
3. Miller’s style of play lends to a drop off at a faster rate than someone like EP.
4. Miller being told to take a leave of absence from the team for an extended period.
5. EP’s play with Miller out.
6. Teams might value Miller’s skill set more.

So as much as mgmt and coaching might be trying to “lite a fire under” under EP, Miller is the one to trade if necessary IMO.

You're forgetting number 7: Miller has a NMC. That will affect his trade value, perhaps significantly.

I can envision a scenario for either being traded.

Petey to a team like Detroit, Carolina, Buffalo or Ottawa. All 4 of those teams can offer a centerpiece worth considering: Kasper, Necas, Byram, Tkachuk.

Miller might waive for NYR, Carolina, CBJ, Pitt. Rangers need to send salary back. Might be something like K'Andre Miller and Lindgren. Carolina is not going to love the age and length of term, likely won't offer much if anything interest at all. CBJ has some nice future pieces but not much that will help us in the near term. Pitt is bone dry unless we want someone like Letang (I wouldn't).

If they trade Petey, it might happen in season. Miller might be offseason with more a futures return and capspace to spend in FA.

Any way you look at it, we would likely lose the trade except for Petey to Ottawa for Tkachuk, assuming he wants to sign with us long term (risky).