Grub's Canucks & NHL News, Rumours, and & Fantasy GM | It's All Gone Pete Tong

sandwichbird2023

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I agree that what coaching and management and Miller are doing are obviously not helping and seem to be doing the opposite.

But I also do understand or acknowledge that there is a certain mentality or desire to win or whatever that is necessary to win a Stanley Cup. This manifests its way differently in different players (e.g., Sedin style verses Linden) but it needs to be there. And it appears that Tocchet and management don’t think it’s there with Pettersson. Of course we don’t know if that’s true or not. It’s possible they are being too rigid in terms of how they want Pettersson’s compete to manifest itself.
I find it hard to believe that Petey's perceived lack of mentality or desire to win is a thing. This is a kid that led the SHL in playoff scoring and won playoff MVP as a 19 years old kid playing against professionals. He also was amazing in the bubble playoff. I think Petey is just as competitive as anyone on the team.

I think the problem is he has essentially shut down. You can point the finger at Miller, coaching staff, management or Petey himself, I don't know where to blame, but to me it looks like he has lost the passion to play here.

If you believe that he can "flip it on" with 15 points in 10 games when JTM was out, then it seems logical to reason that he just "flip it off" as soon as Miller is back. In that case I would conclude that he has completely checked out of Vancouver.
 

VanJack

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What are the odds that Pettersson and Miller finish the year playing together in Vancouver?.....75-25? 50-50?.....or even less than that?

I put the odds at well under 50 percent. And the trade of one of them (probably Miller) will likely the only thing people remember about this Canuck season. That, along with whatever Allvin gets back in a trade.

Hope I'm wrong.....but just can't see any other scenario unfolding unless this team goes on an incredible heater.
 

sandwichbird2023

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What are the odds that Pettersson and Miller finish the year playing together in Vancouver?.....75-25? 50-50?.....or even less than that?

I put the odds at well under 50 percent. And the trade of one of them (probably Miller) will likely the only thing people remember about this Canuck season. That, along with whatever Allvin gets back in a trade.

Hope I'm wrong.....but just can't see any other scenario unfolding unless this team goes on an incredible heater.
Based on everything I have read and heard so far, I would think that one of Miller and Petey is gone before the draft, and I would be surprised if it is not Petey that is traded.

I say this assuming everything said and done is done honestly and with logic, then the Allvin interview is their last ditch, hail mary attempt to "fix" Petey. If he doesn't respond by the end of the season, they will trade him at the draft. There is no other logical explanation for their actions up to this point. I think Petey will welcome the change, to be honest.

So I would probably put it at 10% we go into July with both Miller and Petterson.
 
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ManVanFan

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Coddling is what Boudreau said Petey needs. He has coached EP and Petterson has some of his most productive stretches under BB so I'll take his word on how to handle this player.

Tough love seems to be what JTM has been giving Petey since 2021-22 as per Richardson, and how RT and Allvin is/was handling him, not giving him excuses nor "protecting" him to the public.

Its 2 extreme ways to handle a player, we saw which side Petey reacts better to, so I'm flabbergasted as to why management continues to go down the path they are going.
I don't think Coddling is the word I'd use to describe wanting positive encouragement instead of tough love.

This quote from Bruce from 2023 article.
“I need you to be special tonight and he’d say, ‘Yeah, I want to be special,’ ” he explained. “He loves to be challenged. He wants all the matchups he can get, where you think you need him the most. He’s been great about it. A true pro.”

The whole message just sounds very "old boys club" coming from Rutherford/Tocchet era.
 

Nucker101

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This is significant because this is coming from a former player inside the locker room
Makes me think this team is really screwing up Petey. Some dudes are just built different, leave the guy be and let him play his game. It's gonna suck if he's traded and his next team just lets him do his own thing and he goes back to being a dominant player.

He was fine in the bubble playoffs, it seems like Tocchet/Rutherford/Allvin/Miller want him to be something he's not. I'm sure there's some things that bother them, like maybe he doesn't take practice as seriously as they'd like but that didn't seem to hurt his play before.

If they want a certain type of player/personality then they should've just traded him instead of Horvat honestly.

Even Michael Jordan got fed up with Dennis Rodman, but Phil Jackson knew Rodman was built different and so he handled him differently and got the best out of him, he didn't try to make him behave like Jordan/Pippen.

Even freaking Torts with Michkov has acknowledged that he has to stay out of his way to an extent.

You'd hope a guy like Rutherford who's seen it all with so many different players/teams would know better.
 

VanJack

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Based on everything I have read and heard so far, I would think that one of Miller and Petey is gone before the draft, and I would be surprised if it is not Petey that is traded.

I say this assuming everything said and done is done honestly and with logic, then the Allvin interview is their last ditch, hail mary attempt to "fix" Petey. If he doesn't respond by the end of the season, they will trade him at the draft. There is no other logical explanation for their actions up to this point. I think Petey will welcome the change, to be honest.

So I would probably put it at 10% we go into July with both Miller and Petterson.
The reason I picked 'Miller' is that last month the Canucks went on a six-game eastern road swing and came back 4-1-1 without Miller.

Then there's the fact that Miller is six years older, and probably has a contract that more easily moveable. My prediction--Miller is a Ranger once again by the TDL, or maybe even earlier.
 

PavelBure10

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Everything that can go wrong had this season, pretty much has. Not only did we get injuries to every MVP player on this roster, but our top 2 forwards apparently hate eachother.

Can the stars ever align with this team? Or are we as Canucks fans not privileged enough to ever see a Cup raised in this city.

1970 is cursed for both expansion teams started that year.
 

supercanuck

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Anyone here ever work with a bully? I did, when I was 23, and didn't have enough work experience and maturity to deal with it, and I needed the money. Fortunately for me, this person got transferred 5 months later.

After hearing Brad Richardson speak about this situation, I'm pissed off that this has been going on this long.

Not work, but was bullied in school. Feared going to school everyday. I can see why EP is reacting the way he is if this has been going on since 2021-2022. Especially knowing that management/coaching are squarely on the bully's side must be disheartening.
 

sandwichbird2023

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I don't think Coddling is the word I'd use to describe wanting positive encouragement instead of tough love.

This quote from Bruce from 2023 article.
“I need you to be special tonight and he’d say, ‘Yeah, I want to be special,’ ” he explained. “He loves to be challenged. He wants all the matchups he can get, where you think you need him the most. He’s been great about it. A true pro.”

The whole message just sounds very "old boys club" coming from Rutherford/Tocchet era.
The coddling term was used during an interview Bruce did on TSN about a month or so ago. I don't have the link to it, but I don't think BB meant it in a way like Petey needs to be treated with kids gloves, just more so the old school style doesn't resonate with him. That's all. Sorry if I was unclear, but I was in no way implying anything negative about Petey, and I also don't think Boudreau meant it that way either.
 

ManVanFan

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Anyone here ever work with a bully? I did, when I was 23, and didn't have enough work experience and maturity to deal with it, and I needed the money. Fortunately for me, this person got transferred 5 months later.

After hearing Brad Richardson speak about this situation, I'm pissed off that this has been going on this long.
My wife is a psychiatric nurse. It's not uncommon for the older generations to not understand that not everyone enjoys being yelled at all the time.
 

mriswith

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I'm pretty floored mgmt is getting away with scapegoating EP for this season after completely bombing with the defense in the offseason and I don't think it will last. If trade rumours around EP heat up this market will turn on them.

People aren't stupid enough to watch this team night in and night out and then get told that EP is the problem while there's radio silence on the d.

Anyone here ever work with a bully? I did, when I was 23, and didn't have enough work experience and maturity to deal with it, and I needed the money. Fortunately for me, this person got transferred 5 months later.

After hearing Brad Richardson speak about this situation, I'm pissed off that this has been going on this long.
I get a similar feeling when I hear about the rumours that EP is "standoffish and doesn't engage with the team" aka he's alone and isolated and has been that way for a long time.

Combine that isolation with Miller apparently being way more of a weapons grade asshole than I previously thought, and a Benning tier decision to push Miller to get on EP's ass even more this year than normal...
 

sandwichbird2023

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The reason I picked 'Miller' is that last month the Canucks went on a six-game eastern road swing and came back 4-1-1 without Miller.

Then there's the fact that Miller is six years older, and probably has a contract that more easily moveable. My prediction--Miller is a Ranger once again by the TDL, or maybe even earlier.
I think the management and coaching staff prefer the high intensity and playstyle of Miller, over the higher skill level but someone that need to mature and prepare better (Allvin's words, not mine) of Petterson. Miller also has a NMC and is older, both likely reduce the likelihood of a better return. Petey is still perceived league wide as a Uber talented 1C who is young and locked up long term, so there will be more teams bidding on him.

In the end I still think management preferences for JTM over Petey will be the deciding factor. Also, I lost hope that Petey can turn it around here, even if we somehow get rid of JT. I think Petey needs and wants a fresh start, so holding on to him is just going to hurt every parties involved.
 
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Nuckles

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Rangers’ Zac Jones feels like he’s ‘rotting away’ after losing spot: ‘It f–king sucks’

No. 6 on your scorecard has become No. 7 on the defense depth chart and Zac Jones is not happy about it.

So when asked about this latest development in which he is set to be scratched for the fifth time in six games when the Bruins come to the Garden on Thursday, Jones took some time so that he could choose his words wisely.

“I don’t want to say that I don’t get a chance, because but it’s tough having been in that role the last two years and it’s like, I’ve got to play. It’s as simple as that,” Jones said. “I’m f–king 24 years old, it’s simple as that, and I’ve got to play, so it’s f–king really frustrating.

“It’s frustrating when you think you’re doing some things well and it’s just, you just keep getting taken out, taken out, taken out,” said the UMass product, who has been in the organization since the final month of the 2020-21 season. “I just feel like I’m rotting away a little bit.

“And it’s tough, It’s really f—king tough. I mean, I’m not a 32-year-old guy collecting a paycheck. I’m a guy who wants to earn my paycheck. I need to play. I have things I need to improve in order to be a full-time player and that’s what I want to be, I want to be a guy who plays 82 games and be in the lineup every night.

“I get that there are decisions to be made but, you know, it just sucks when it’s always you.”


Full article:

Rangers’ Zac Jones feels like he’s ‘rotting away’ after losing spot: ‘It f–king sucks’​

No. 6 on your scorecard has become No. 7 on the defense depth chart and Zac Jones is not happy about it.

Not at all.

So when asked about this latest development in which he is set to be scratched for the fifth time in six games when the Bruins come to the Garden on Thursday, Jones took some time so that he could choose his words wisely.

These were his first words.

“It f–king sucks,” he told The Post, his voice quivering with emotion. “It f–king sucks.”

Head coach Peter Laviolette made it clear last week that his preferred top six includes both recent acquisitions Will Borgen (for Kaapo Kakko) and Urho Vaakanainen (for Jacob Trouba). The decision leaves Jones on the outside —again— after playing in 25 of the first 31 contests and getting a run of 20 out of 21 games from Nov. 3 to Dec. 17.

And while Jones’ game dipped through the last month, there is not a single Ranger — maybe with the exception of Will Cuylle — who does not fall into that category. Scratching No. 6 seems like the path of least resistance as it did when Kakko was scratched in St. Louis on Dec. 15.

“I don’t want to say that I don’t get a chance, because but it’s tough having been in that role the last two years and it’s like, I’ve got to play. It’s as simple as that,” Jones said. “I’m f–king 24 years old, it’s simple as that, and I’ve got to play, so it’s f–king really frustrating.

“Yes, there were some hiccups here and there during my stretch of games but overall I thought I was one of our better players throughout the whole thing. I mean, the team wasn’t playing well, we weren’t winning, almost nothing was going right but I don’t want to look at it like that.

“It’s frustrating when you think you’re doing some things well and it’s just, you just keep getting taken out, taken out, taken out,” said the UMass product, who has been in the organization since the final month of the 2020-21 season. “I just feel like I’m rotting away a little bit.

“And it’s tough, It’s really f—king tough. I mean, I’m not a 32-year-old guy collecting a paycheck. I’m a guy who wants to earn my paycheck. I need to play. I have things I need to improve in order to be a full-time player and that’s what I want to be, I want to be a guy who plays 82 games and be in the lineup every night.

“I get that there are decisions to be made but, you know, it just sucks when it’s always you.”


Vaakanainen was on IR with an upper body issue when he was acquired in the Trouba trade on Dec. 6 and did not make his Rangers’ debut until Dec. 17. K’Andre Miller had been out of the lineup six games with an upper body injury he sustained on Dec. 11 before returning last Saturday in Tampa Bay. Borgen joined the squad on Dec. 18.

Jones can count.

“This [stretch of scratches] is kind of a surprise but at the same time it’s not,” he said. “It’s honestly nothing new, you come in with a positive mindset but you always have it in the back of your mind, I know guys are hurt, guys are coming back and that’s hard.

“You know in the back of your mind when everyone is ready it’s probably going to be you that’s out. And it’s like, no matter what you do you just feel like you’re stuck.”

Jones has been caught up ice too often during this stretch in which his team has gone 4-15 since Nov. 21. He has been on for two goals for and nine against with a 39.58 expected goal ratio. Overall, Jones has been on for 14 goals for and 11 against with an xGF of 47.13. When paired with Braden Schneider, the tandem has been on for nine goals for and five against with a 49.06 xGF.

Laviolette, who has Schneider on the third pair with Vaakanainen and Borgen on the second pair with Miller, said that he understood Jones’ frustration but, as is his nature, did not delve into the reasons for his decisions.

“That’s OK and I would expect anyone out of the lineup to be frustrated and want to be in there and play,” said the head coach. “Any messages I have for Zac, I’m not going to give them to you, I’m going to give them to Zac and talk to him directly.

“The roster has changed on the back end with different players bringing different things. That’s the decision now.”

It seems problematic for Jones to be able to carve a path to a regular spot here. It seems as if every game is a metaphorical life and death matter. Defensemen with more extensive track records are in the lineup with every game taking on the aura of a metaphorical life-and-death matter..

Chances are his best chance would come somewhere else.

“I don’t know. I don’t know,” said the defenseman, who has one goal and seven assists on the year. “I mean, we have a really good team here, we have a really good staff, there’s nothing bad about this organization.

“I just think, maybe it’s here, maybe it’s somewhere else. I wish I had a crystal ball and could tell you that.”

Jones said that he is taking it, “day by day,” and has not asked for a trade.

But maybe he just did.
 
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sandwichbird2023

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I get a similar feeling when I hear about the rumours that EP is "standoffish and doesn't engage with the team" aka he's alone and isolated and has been that way for a long time.
But that does lead to the next question, why is nobody on Petey's side and leave him isolated? By all accounts, Petey was good friends with Brock and Quinn early in his career. If somebody is bullying Petey or unjustifiably tough on him, you would think his buddies would step up and put a stop to it, or at least not leave Petey isolated.

Usually in these situations you have a fractured locker room ala Linden/Messier, where players pick sides and neither has all/none of the support. Having EP alone is such a weird and unusual scenario, especially with Brock and Quinn both being such great people. The only 2 logical conclusions are that 1) Miller is hard on EP but not overly tough (which seems to contradict the Richardson tidbit so probably not that), or 2) the whole team was frustrated with Petey's struggle the last 11 months, and think he DOES need some tough love?
 
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Quinton Byfield

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I find it hard to believe that Petey's perceived lack of mentality or desire to win is a thing. This is a kid that led the SHL in playoff scoring and won playoff MVP as a 19 years old kid playing against professionals. He also was amazing in the bubble playoff. I think Petey is just as competitive as anyone on the team.

I think the problem is he has essentially shut down. You can point the finger at Miller, coaching staff, management or Petey himself, I don't know where to blame, but to me it looks like he has lost the passion to play here.

If you believe that he can "flip it on" with 15 points in 10 games when JTM was out, then it seems logical to reason that he just "flip it off" as soon as Miller is back. In that case I would conclude that he has completely checked out of Vancouver.
I think the whole 15pts in 10 games without Miller in the lineup argument is overused and correlation does not equal causation. I don't think I saw that competitive fire in him during that time anyways. I don't believe I've seen that fire in him in a while, probably not since Boudreau was around.

The playoff bubble was 5 years ago. Miller was also great that year, together. So the assumption that once we trade Miller, he'll be the superstar player with a booming 1-T on the powerplay might be fraught in error.

Say you trade Miller, for an underwhelming return as these things always are, and Pete continues to be the same way, you'll have blown up the core and the chance to compete. People just want to rebuild, but that just means you're driving Quinn to the airport.

If we choose Pete over Miller, you're not picking one guy over another. You're picking Pete over contending now. I will never pick Pete over Quinn, especially on a 10 game sample against soft opponents in November.

I legitimately think it's a simple as Pete not being a fit for Tocchet hockey. It's boring, dull low event hockey that is heavy and taxing on a small body like Pete. I wish we had gotten our hands on Montgomery when he was available, but that was never on the table with this management group. They have chosen this brand of hockey with their signings.
 

Kryten

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But that does lead to the next question, why is nobody on Petey's side and leave him isolated? By all accounts, Petey was good friends with Brock and Quinn early in his career. If somebody is bullying Petey or unjustifiably tough on him, you would think his buddies would step up and put a stop to it, or at least not leave Petey isolated.

Usually in these situations you have a fractured locker room ala Linden/Messier, where players pick sides and neither has all/none of the support. Having EP alone is such a weird and unusual scenario, especially with Brock and Quinn both being such great people. The only 2 logical conclusions are that 1) Miller is hard on EP but not overly tough (which seems to contradict the Richardson tidbit so probably not that), or 2) the whole team was frustrated with Petey's struggle the last 11 months, and think he DOES need some tough love?
Yea
to the have you ever worked with a bully crowd…have YOU ever worked with a coworker who doesnt show up, has the skills to do a great job but would rather be on their phone. Gets paid more than you and all the other coworkers raise their concerns as well? Now what if youre a supervisor or boss to said person and have tried different approaches to motivate and none seem to work
 
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Nuckles

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He's a free article with some quotes from Zac Jones


“It's tough,’’ the 24-year-old defenseman told Newsday Wednesday about being relegated to the role of seventh defenseman for the Rangers. “It's really [expletive] tough. I mean, I'm just generally a pretty easygoing, happy person. And no matter what is going on in my life, I'm gonna try and come to the rink with a smile on my face . . . But it [expletive] sucks. Like, there’s nothing else I can say about it.’’

“I'm just gonna have to talk to my agent, talk to my family, and . . . yeah, probably at some point have a conversation with [GM Chris] Drury or Laviolette and go from there,’’ he said. “I don't have a crystal ball to tell you exactly what I'm gonna do, but we'll see what happens.’’
 
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ManVanFan

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I legitimately think it's a simple as Pete not being a fit for Tocchet hockey. It's boring, dull low event hockey that is heavy and taxing on a small body like Pete. I wish we had gotten our hands on Montgomery when he was available, but that was never on the table with this management group. They have chosen this brand of hockey with their signings.
I've always liked JM style too. It would be risky but David Carle. The current coach of U of Denver and USA coach at the WJ's for the past 2 years. Looks like a good bet to be joining the NHL ranks soon. 35 years old. Guy could be the next JM who was the previous coach of Denver before going to the Stars.
 

Canucks LB

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Anyone here ever work with a bully? I did, when I was 23, and didn't have enough work experience and maturity to deal with it, and I needed the money. Fortunately for me, this person got transferred 5 months later.

After hearing Brad Richardson speak about this situation, I'm pissed off that this has been going on this long.
I don’t think it’s a bully situation, I think it’s a person who has high expectations on himself and wants everybody around him to have the same expectations.

Let’s not forget, he was our best player in the playoffs, this is a guy who thrives in the playoffs.

I think it’s a personality clash between two people
 

sandwichbird2023

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I think the whole 15pts in 10 games without Miller in the lineup argument is overused and correlation does not equal causation. I don't think I saw that competitive fire in him during that time anyways. I don't believe I've seen that fire in him in a while, probably not since Boudreau was around.

The playoff bubble was 5 years ago. Miller was also great that year, together. So the assumption that once we trade Miller, he'll be the superstar player with a booming 1-T on the powerplay might be fraught in error.

Say you trade Miller, for an underwhelming return as these things always are, and Pete continues to be the same way, you'll have blown up the core and the chance to compete. People just want to rebuild, but that just means you're driving Quinn to the airport.

If we choose Pete over Miller, you're not picking one guy over another. You're picking Pete over contending now. I will never pick Pete over Quinn, especially on a 10 game sample against soft opponents in November.

I legitimately think it's a simple as Pete not being a fit for Tocchet hockey. It's boring, dull low event hockey that is heavy and taxing on a small body like Pete. I wish we had gotten our hands on Montgomery when he was available, but that was never on the table with this management group. They have chosen this brand of hockey with their signings.
Yes, the risk with trading Miller is you don't know if that is enough to bring Petey all the way back to his 100 pts 1C level. If not, like you said, you just shut any contending window with an $11.6m 2C on the roster.

Trading Petey also should bring back a much better package, and you can, in theory, use those to retool the roster and hope to compete.

If we use Hughes' current contract as the cup window, then it is reasonable to believe that having Miller is actually better, and any decline afterwards doesn't matter.

I think there are just too many factors working against keeping EP over JT at this point.
 

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