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[andora]

I see a bit of a pattern here and I hope management adjusts their negotiating strategy. It's one thing to figure out your bottom line and stick with it. It's another to be stubborn and low ball and the proceeding to meet the player's original demands "too late." Castonguay being a former agent should know the market. 3X$3m for Myers, 2X$2M for Descharnais but 1x$1.5M for Cole is a joke. It's like offering something similar to RNH to Horvat.

When their tactics actually start costing us high impact players or Star players then maybe we can worry about it.

Was our offer to horvat actually out of touch?

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

I’m completely fine with the Nucks moving on from Z.

He needs to be constantly motivated and even then, he’s a Top 4 at best.

I think mgmt is planning to acquire a legit Top 4 dman by the TDL at the latest.

 

[Baby Pettersson]

I’m completely fine with the Nucks moving on from Z.

He needs to be constantly motivated and even then, he’s a Top 4 at best.

I think mgmt is planning to acquire a legit Top 4 dman by the TDL at the latest.

Exactly. I think they have long term plans to find a better top 4 D and will be pulling the trigger close to the deadline.

 

[Josepho]

Cole is 35 and the wheels were clearly falling off at the end of last season. I would rather gamble on Desharnais' upside at $2mil than Cole at anything similar.

 

[Jerry the great]

When their tactics actually start costing us high impact players or Star players then maybe we can worry about it.

Was our offer to horvat actually out of touch?

only if you're hung up on the idea his 50 game heater was repeatable.

 

[Nucker101]

I love Z, but man do some people here overrate him as a hockey player

 

[rypper]

I think I just liked the luxury of having a player like Zadorov on the bottom pairing, to move up when injuries happen. Obviously cost plays into it huge and was the deciding factor.

 

[Peter Griffin]

I’m completely fine with the Nucks moving on from Z.

He needs to be constantly motivated and even then, he’s a Top 4 at best.

I think mgmt is planning to acquire a legit Top 4 dman by the TDL at the latest.

Should be their #1 target and hopefully they can find a true #3 to anchor that 2nd pairing.

 

[krutovsdonut]

like many aging veterans, cole would have won a starter's job, looked great early, then faded as the season went on, but at the same time have been hard to sit down because very professional and respected veteran. eventually you have to sit him and throw in cold the guy you should have been preparing all season.

leafs found this out with giardano last season.

and before we get cocky about passing on cole, anyone celebrating myers' play right now should keep this lesson in mind given he was our high minute dman yesterday

 

[F A N]

When their tactics actually start costing us high impact players or Star players then maybe we can worry about it.

I disagree but I'm a worrier.

Was our offer to horvat actually out of touch?

only if you're hung up on the idea his 50 game heater was repeatable.

Well reportedly our initial offer was 8x$5.125M and Horvat reportedly wanted Couturier money (which is about where our final offer landed). My point here isn't so much about what Horvat or Zadorov is worth as much as management ended up offering the player what they were initially seeking (in Zadorov's case we offered more). So it follows that if there was a desire/plan to sign the players in question then management failed here in execution.

 

[andora]

I disagree but I'm a worrier.





Well reportedly our initial offer was 8x$5.125M and Horvat reportedly wanted Couturier money (which is about where our final offer landed). My point here isn't so much about what Horvat or Zadorov is worth as much as management ended up offering the player what they were initially seeking (in Zadorov's case we offered more). So it follows that if there was a desire/plan to sign the players in question then management failed here in execution.

What did we end up offering horvat in the end?

What did we offer more than what zadorov was seeking?

Do you think the 5th year was offered in panic at the end or if the 5th year was always on the table - as in mgmt was willing to do 5 yrs if necessary but preferred 4

Just because you are willing to re sign players, not getting them to sign to what you deem as acceptable/max willing to offer doesnt mean it is failed execution. If they are following a disciplined process in evaluation and salary planning it suggests the opposite with execution

 

[F A N]

What did we end up offering horvat in the end?

What did we offer more than what zadorov was seeking?

It was reported that the Canucks' last offer to Horvat was 7x$7.5M and the last offer to Zadorov was 5x$5M.

It was reported that the Canucks offered 4x$4.6M before the playoffs to Zadorov and Zadorov wanted 5 years. It's in line with Zadorov's salary demands when he was in Calgary.

Do you think the 5th year was offered in panic at the end or if the 5th year was always on the table - as in mgmt was willing to do 5 yrs if necessary but preferred 4

I think the Canucks' offer to Zadorov before the playoffs was clearly not competitive and if the Canucks wanted to re-sign Zadorov (which we did) it took more. I don't think the 5 years was to Zadorov was on the table before the playoffs given the reports.

Just because you are willing to re sign players, not getting them to sign to what you deem as acceptable/max willing to offer doesnt mean it is failed execution. If they are following a disciplined process in evaluation and salary planning it suggests the opposite with execution

Sure but if you end up coming up to what the player was asking initially anyways what does that tell you? If it isn't a failure in execution then it's a failure in valuation. Keep in mind that we're talking about players who ended up getting more from another team. You can even go back to the Miller extension. The Canucks reportedly came up significantly to get it done. Had they not done that Miller would have been another player who got more than what the Canucks were offering.

 

[andora]

It was reported that the Canucks' last offer to Horvat was 7x$7.5M and the last offer to Zadorov was 5x$5M.

It was reported that the Canucks offered 4x$4.6M before the playoffs to Zadorov and Zadorov wanted 5 years. It's in line with Zadorov's salary demands when he was in Calgary.



I think the Canucks' offer to Zadorov before the playoffs was clearly not competitive and if the Canucks wanted to re-sign Zadorov (which we did) it took more. I don't think the 5 years was to Zadorov was on the table before the playoffs given the reports.



Sure but if you end up coming up to what the player was asking initially anyways what does that tell you? If it isn't a failure in execution then it's a failure in valuation. Keep in mind that we're talking about players who ended up getting more from another team. You can even go back to the Miller extension. The Canucks reportedly came up significantly to get it done. Had they not done that Miller would have been another player who got more than what the Canucks were offering.

I guess it's a way to spin it but I just think I see it more neutral, not needing to label everything, if you go in tougher on negotiations you're going to get what you want more often than you don't and when you're dealing with non-impact non-star players oh well

How did zadorob get 6 years in the end.. and the fact he apparently talked to lindholm about playing there

His playoff performance may have got them the fifth year offered by us but why did it suddenly become six if he wanted five.

Horbat we went as high as 7.5.. jeez thank god

 

[Baby Pettersson]

The catch 22 in playing hardball with players is that sometimes they walk.

Much better then the alternative however in having a GM like Benning overpaying anything he can get his hands on with no financial discipline.

You guys can decide which one you'd prefer.

 

[Nick Lang]

In the case of Cole, I actually agree with the lowball offer and suspect they didn't really care one way or another. While he was good throughout the season, he started to fall off near the end and was a walking disaster in the Edmonton series. I'd argue 2M would have been the more "fair" response but he had no business asking for 3M again, and it sounds like Utah already regrets giving it to him.

Zadorov though, I agree was a whiff my management. Like I said above, while I roll my eyes at Zadorov feeling disrespected he wasn't our first priority, I equally think it was a silly for Allvin to wrangle his hands over five years instead of four. Heck, I'd argue a better tactic would be to offer six years but at a slightly lower cap. At least then it seems more like a negotiation than just playing hardball.

Ultimately, I'm willing to look passed it this off season given we very nearly had Guentzel. Not to mention, our acquisitions seemed promising. That's the key though. If Heinen, Desharnias, Forbort and DeBrusk are still roughly the same as they are right now, I'll be a little more critical next year about it.

Personally I completely agree with playing hardball with Zad. He brings some attractive attributes like his skating for a big man, some offensive acumen, and obviously his size and big hits. However, he's overall a poor defender who makes very poor decisions in his own end, takes bad penalties, and has huge inconsistencies in his play.

For myself this is a player you don't want signed long-term to a legacy deal. 3 years is ideal and 4 was to make him happy. I don't want a player like that signed for 5 or 6 years. That's going to be an awful contract for a meh player who is not getting any better. He also showed his true colors and started mouthing off about us already. He's a blowhard.

 

[oceanchild]

I love Z, but man do some people here overrate him as a hockey player

I think that is true, but I also think that he brought more to the team than his ability to play hockey. He had that thing that you just couldn’t teach in his ability to handle this media and to some extent keep pressure off other players in the team. He was also a very large human and truculent in the right kind of way. I do believe the punishment he could put on people can change a series and win a game for you in the playoffs. Sometimes that is an important of a contribution as being the one to score the goal (which he can also do at times). The guy is a bit of a unicorn in today’s NHL and sure he has flaws (a bunch of them) but it’s hard to find a unicorn .

The catch 22 in playing hardball with players is that sometimes they walk.

Much better then the alternative however in having a GM like Benning overpaying anything he can get his hands on with no financial discipline.

You guys can decide which one you'd prefer.

Agreed, but also think his contract isn’t really out of line.

 

[Nick Lang]

I think that is true, but I also think that he brought more to the team than his ability to play hockey. He had that thing that you just couldn’t teach in his ability to handle this media and to some extent keep pressure off other players in the team. He was also a very large human and truculent in the right kind of way. I do believe the punishment he could put on people can change a series and win a game for you in the playoffs. Sometimes that is an important of a contribution as being the one to score the goal (which he can also do at times). The guy is a bit of a unicorn in today’s NHL and sure he has flaws (a bunch of them) but it’s hard to find a unicorn .


Agreed, but also think his contract isn’t really out of line.

There are a lot of people who loves Big Z's attitude. I don't really get that amped either way about media soundbites but it seems like a double edged sword. It's fun when you're winning and he's being a mouthpiece but it seems like his teammates and teams in general get tired of his antics and inflated self pretty fast too. It's annoying when guys like that can't be bothered to work on consistency but they can call everyone else out about whatever. He is funny, I'll give him that.

A couple comments from Bruins Central:

 

[bossram]

I love Z, but man do some people here overrate him as a hockey player

He played like 10 or 11 games at a top-four level (after never being used as more than a 5D) and many fans treat him like he's the next Zdeno Chara.

Allvin absolutely made the right decision.

 

[Jerry the great]

Well reportedly our initial offer was 8x$5.125M and Horvat reportedly wanted Couturier money (which is about where our final offer landed). My point here isn't so much about what Horvat or Zadorov is worth as much as management ended up offering the player what they were initially seeking (in Zadorov's case we offered more). So it follows that if there was a desire/plan to sign the players in question then management failed here in execution.

Sure they had plans to sign those guys.....at prices and term that work within a broader cap structure.

I think they missed on missing out on Zadorov..... if they'd offered $4.6x5 when they made the trade initially, they probably would have got him signed (assuming 3rd party reporting is accurate).

On Horvat, their miss was a win IMO. I actually think the initial 8 year deal at $5.125 MM was pretty close to fair given his ceiling was pretty well defined by then, he'd basically not leveled up much as a player compared to when he signed his previous deal and we were in year 4 of the ~flat cap era. He clearly was not a true all situations #1 C and any comparison to Couturier (who had established himself as an exceptional 2 way play driving #1 C) was wildly off the mark IMO. Horvat was and still is below average defensively at ES and a horrible penalty killer.

I can't remember the exact sequence of events that summer, but they were right to (eventually?) prioritize extending Miller.

End of the day, when you're dealing with players that have leverage due to pending free agency:

"Yea, you win some and lose some
It ain't always home runs
And that's just the way life plays"

 

[sandwichbird2023]

He played like 10 or 11 games at a top-four level (after never being used as more than a 5D) and many fans treat him like he's the next Zdeno Chara.

Allvin absolutely made the right decision.

That is clearly not true, nobody is clamoring to give him $8m+ for max term or anything close to it. $4.6m is a fair number for a player that can be slotted as a #4/5 (so a 2nd/3rd pairing player) that brings a lot of different elements that the team is somewhat lacking. It isn't the end of the world he signed elsewhere, but it would've been nice if we were able to keep him.

I get Allvin's hesitation to extend Zadorov before the playoff, you don't want to lock in to 5 years if the player cannot perform at the most important time of the year. I thought Z elevated him game enough to warrant that 5th year, and seems like Allvin did too with his final offer. It didn't work out, that's part of the business, so be it.

I guess Allvin is banking on Desharnais providing some of what Z provided, at less than half the cost. On paper that make sense, I hope VD works out here. If the Brannstrom-VD pairing works out as a solid 3rd pairing, that will be a huge stabilizer on our blueline.

 

[Vector]

If you were wondering why the Tyler Myers 1000 games t-shirt said "The Boy's Have Been Talkin' Tour", Thomas Drance has your answer.

The Canucks wore T-shirts to commemorate Myers’ 1,000th NHL game on Saturday. On the back of the shirts was a list of arenas Myers has called home throughout his NHL career.

It was laid out like a band T-shirt, with the tour destinations listed as part of “The Boys Have Been Talkin’ Tour.”

The idea stems from an inside joke between Myers and the training staff. It seems that occasionally when Myers provides some feedback or asks for something to be done just a bit differently, he’ll often begin the request by noting “the boys have been talkin'” about whatever it is.

There’s obviously a bit of a roast in this, but also a grain of truth to the idea that a veteran player with weight like Myers, a player who has been through it all — from a Calder-winning rookie to making deep playoff runs with the Winnipeg Jets, to overcoming various injuries — carries a certain weight in an NHL locker room. That he’s the guy most likely to filter what “the boys were talkin'” about into an active suggestion is actually sort of telling and captures some of the off-ice value good, hardworking professionals like Myers can bring to a team.

“He’s seen the ups and downs,” noted Boeser. “Any time a veteran who has played that many games speaks, you listen to a guy like that. Even the coaches listen to a guy like that.”

 

[bossram]

That is clearly not true, nobody is clamoring to give him $8m+ for max term or anything close to it. $4.6m is a fair number for a player that can be slotted as a #4/5 (so a 2nd/3rd pairing player) that brings a lot of different elements that the team is somewhat lacking. It isn't the end of the world he signed elsewhere, but it would've been nice if we were able to keep him.

I get Allvin's hesitation to extend Zadorov before the playoff, you don't want to lock in to 5 years if the player cannot perform at the most important time of the year. I thought Z elevated him game enough to warrant that 5th year, and seems like Allvin did too with his final offer. It didn't work out, that's part of the business, so be it.

I guess Allvin is banking on Desharnais providing some of what Z provided, at less than half the cost. On paper that make sense, I hope VD works out here. If the Brannstrom-VD pairing works out as a solid 3rd pairing, that will be a huge stabilizer on our blueline.

People are here still whining they let him go when Z clearly wanted to get paid too much. People here (let alone casual fans...yikes) were saying to give him 6+ years at well above $5M per, and even beyond that. Me saying people are treating him like Chara is hyperbole, but saying the majority of fans wildly overrated Zadorov is not hyperbole at all.

Sure, $4.6M for 4 years might be a fair number (personally I would not go that high). Bottom-line is that Z didn't accept that. Allvin had a line that he valued Z, he held it, and Zadorov wanted more. Allvin let him go because the price was too high. This is unequivocally the right decision.

 

[F A N]

People are here still whining they let him go when Z clearly wanted to get paid too much. People here (let alone casual fans...yikes) were saying to give him 6+ years at well above $5M per, and even beyond that. Me saying people are treating him like Chara is hyperbole, but saying the majority of fans wildly overrated Zadorov is not hyperbole at all.

Sure, $4.6M for 4 years might be a fair number (personally I would not go that high). Bottom-line is that Z didn't accept that. Allvin had a line that he valued Z, he held it, and Zadorov wanted more. Allvin let him go because the price was too high. This is unequivocally the right decision.

That's not quite what happened though. Initially, the disagreement was over term: 4 vs 5 years. Allvin ended up offering 5x$5M to Zadorov (perhaps after prioritizing others) but by then Zadorov had felt a bit disrespected and he did get 6x$5M.

We all have our opinions on what Z is worth but that doesn't change the fact that Allvin ended up offering him 5x$5M when Z was willing to sign for 5x$4.6M before the playoffs. So not quite a case of letting Zadorov go because the price was too high. That's what is frustrating about losing Z aside from the (lack of) replacements that were brought in. Of course we'll most likely make moves to address the defence eventually.

 

[bossram]

That's not quite what happened though. Initially, the disagreement was over term: 4 vs 5 years. Allvin ended up offering 5x$5M to Zadorov (perhaps after prioritizing others) but by then Zadorov had felt a bit disrespected and he did get 6x$5M.

We all have our opinions on what Z is worth but that doesn't change the fact that Allvin ended up offering him 5x$5M when Z was willing to sign for 5x$4.6M before the playoffs. So not quite a case of letting Zadorov go because the price was too high. That's what is frustrating about losing Z aside from the (lack of) replacements that were brought in. Of course we'll most likely make moves to address the defence eventually.

The price was too high. Allvin's hard line $5x5. His initial offer was less, in the area of $4.6M x 4 or 5. That's negotiating.

Allvin wouldn't go above his line because Z isn't worth it. I personally think that was still too high, but credit to Allvin for making the right decision.

No, I don't think anyone should be "disappointed" that the Canucks avoided paying $30M to a guy who has, aside from like a 10-12 game stretch, has never been considered or used as more than a 5D, by multiple coaches.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

People are here still whining they let him go when Z clearly wanted to get paid too much. People here (let alone casual fans...yikes) were saying to give him 6+ years at well above $5M per, and even beyond that. Me saying people are treating him like Chara is hyperbole, but saying the majority of fans wildly overrated Zadorov is not hyperbole at all.

Sure, $4.6M for 4 years might be a fair number (personally I would not go that high). Bottom-line is that Z didn't accept that. Allvin had a line that he valued Z, he held it, and Zadorov wanted more. Allvin let him go because the price was too high. This is unequivocally the right decision.

A few things here:
1) Idon't think people are "still whining", but it is definitely a valid criticism that we went from Hughes-Soucy-Z last playoff to Hughes-Soucy-Forbort/Brannstrom this season. Our LD definitely took a hit. You may or may not agree with paying Zadorov $4.6m x 5 or $5m x 5, but the defense got weaker this year is probably not in dispute. Had Allvin replaced Z with an equal quality 2/3LD, I think most fans would be ok with losing Z to UFA.
2) I still don't think most fans have issues with letting Zadorov walk. I haven't comb through all the posts but I don't remember seeing many (or any) "6+ years at WELL ABOVE $5m" offer that you stated. Again, I think the issue is we went into this season with a somewhat injury-prone Soucy as 2LD and a pretty limited player in Forbort as 3LD.
3) In a rising cap world, I really don't think a #4/5D that can move up and down the lineup is a price too high. If we had young players or prospects ready to take over, that would've been different, but we have nothing in the pipeline on the LD front. D-Petey might make it but even then is he reliable enough for a contending team in the next couple seasons, where our window is most open? After him we have long shots that may or may not even be AHL players. Again, if we had contingency plans, thats one thing. But going into this season with Soucy/Forbort as 2LD/3LD in a contending window is definitely a let down.

Again, I don't think losing Z is the end of the world, and its fine that Allvin "held the line", but seeing the current blueline comparing to last playoff, it definitely feels a lot weaker.