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[credulous]

who you cutting from this roster to fit zadorov? even if you assume forbort never gets signed you still need to find another 3.5m. you can get there if you don't sign heinen and myers but then you have a problem on the right side

 

[bossram]

A few things here:
1) Idon't think people are "still whining", but it is definitely a valid criticism that we went from Hughes-Soucy-Z last playoff to Hughes-Soucy-Forbort/Brannstrom this season. Our LD definitely took a hit. You may or may not agree with paying Zadorov $4.6m x 5 or $5m x 5, but the defense got weaker this year is probably not in dispute. Had Allvin replaced Z with an equal quality 2/3LD, I think most fans would be ok with losing Z to UFA.
2) I still don't think most fans have issues with letting Zadorov walk. I haven't comb through all the posts but I don't remember seeing many (or any) "6+ years at WELL ABOVE $5m" offer that you stated. Again, I think the issue is we went into this season with a somewhat injury-prone Soucy as 2LD and a pretty limited player in Forbort as 3LD.
3) In a rising cap world, I really don't think a #4/5D that can move up and down the lineup is a price too high. If we had young players or prospects ready to take over, that would've been different, but we have nothing in the pipeline on the LD front. D-Petey might make it but even then is he reliable enough for a contending team in the next couple seasons, where our window is most open? After him we have long shots that may or may not even be AHL players. Again, if we had contingency plans, thats one thing. But going into this season with Soucy/Forbort as 2LD/3LD in a contending window is definitely a let down.

Again, I don't think losing Z is the end of the world, and its fine that Allvin "held the line", but seeing the current blueline comparing to last playoff, it definitely feels a lot weaker.

1. Yes, the blueline got weaker comparatively. They moved assets (cap space) from the blueline, to bolster the forward corps instead. This was the right organizational direction. The Canucks' biggest weakness last season was a lack of scoring chance generation. Their strength was chance prevention. They weren't adding another "true" top-four D-man while still signing Debrusk + Sherwood + Heinen (and retaining Joshua, Garland, and to a lesser extent, Blueger). Fans can disagree with this approach, but I see it as the right call.

2. Absolutely there were people on HFboards willing to give Z $5M x 6 years, and beyond. I remember a poster (who consistently has horrible takes) saying they should go $6x6. I'm not even mentioning casuals or people on Twitter.

3. This is a fair argument. Getting a useful player locked in during an era of cap inflation does (on a relative basis) mitigate the cap expense. But again, they didn't have the cap space to address everything. They prioritized the forwards. I also think it's pretty predictable that Allvin will try to address the blueline in-season, as he's tried to protect their ability to bank cap space to make an in-season addition.

 

[Vector]

who you cutting from this roster to fit zadorov? even if you assume forbort never gets signed you still need to find another 3.5m. you can get there if you don't sign heinen and myers but then you have a problem on the right side

It's a fun thought experiment. Here's all the free agents (I'll include Brannstrom) they signed.

DeBrusk - 5.5
Joshua - 3.25
Myers - 3.0
Heinen - 2.25
Desharnais - 2.0
Blueger - 1.8
Sherwood - 1.5
Forbort - 1.5
Sprong - 0.975
Brannstrom - 0.9

If we assume the 4.6m was the max the Canucks were willing to go cap hit wise then if you remove Forbort, Desharnais, and Heinen that frees 5.75m. Would then probably not sign Sprong and run PDG and Friedman.

 

[HairyKneel]

Lankinen .875.

 

[Hodgy]

It's a fun thought experiment. Here's all the free agents (I'll include Brannstrom) they signed.

DeBrusk - 5.5
Joshua - 3.25
Myers - 3.0
Heinen - 2.25
Desharnais - 2.0
Blueger - 1.8
Sherwood - 1.5
Forbort - 1.5
Sprong - 0.975
Brannstrom - 0.9

If we assume the 4.6m was the max the Canucks were willing to go cap hit wise then if you remove Forbort, Desharnais, and Heinen that frees 5.75m. Would then probably not sign Sprong and run PDG and Friedman.

Ya, that is what I was thinking. And while its extremely early, Forbort and Desharnais have looked pretty poor.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

1. Yes, the blueline got weaker comparatively. They moved assets (cap space) from the blueline, to bolster the forward corps instead. This was the right organizational direction. The Canucks' biggest weakness last season was a lack of scoring chance generation. Their strength was chance prevention. They weren't adding another "true" top-four D-man while still signing Debrusk + Sherwood + Heinen (and retaining Joshua, Garland, and to a lesser extent, Blueger). Fans can disagree with this approach, but I see it as the right call.

2. Absolutely there were people on HFboards willing to give Z $5M x 6 years, and beyond. I remember a poster (who consistently has horrible takes) saying they should go $6x6. I'm not even mentioning casuals or people on Twitter.

3. This is a fair argument. Getting a useful player locked in during an era of cap inflation does (on a relative basis) mitigate the cap expense. But again, they didn't have the cap space to address everything. They prioritized the forwards. I also think it's pretty predictable that Allvin will try to address the blueline in-season, as he's tried to protect their ability to bank cap space to make an in-season addition.

I personally disagree somewhat with Allvin's execution, although I understood what he was trying to accomplish. I think a big part of our issue offensively last playoff was due to Petey's struggles. Early in the 2023-24 season we were scoring more than enough to win. Once Petey cooled off, things got dicey. My assumption was after a summer off, Petey will come roaring back and that will more or less solves our offensive woes. Going after Guentzel and signing JDB was the right idea to add to team offense, but I didn't think going after Heinen was necessary. In terms of cap space, Z at $5m roughly equals to Forbort + Heinen + Sprong, and I personally prefer the former. Plug in Aman for Heinen and not carrying Sprong, we don't really spend all that much more on the cap. It was doable retaining Z, still bring back Myers and add VD, if we really wanted to.

It is fine to try to address the blueline in season, and they absolutely must now, but I prefer they try to add a minor piece to an already solid blueline, rather than trying to add an impact piece to a fairly shallow blueline. In terms of assets (picks/prospects) it would be cheaper and easier to acquire getting a minor piece.

Different team building philosophy I guess, neither is "right" or "wrong", both could prove successful/unsuccessful in the end.

 

[Vector]

Ya, that is what I was thinking. And while its extremely early, Forbort and Desharnais have looked pretty poor.

I've said multiple times, so I'm definitely repeating myself, but I think both of them were signed as place holders and depth now instead of trading what few assets they had for similar players later.

 

[bossram]

I personally disagree somewhat with Allvin's execution, although I understood what he was trying to accomplish. I think a big part of our issue offensively last playoff was due to Petey's struggles. Early in the 2023-24 season we were scoring more than enough to win. Once Petey cooled off, things got dicey. My assumption was after a summer off, Petey will come roaring back and that will more or less solves our offensive woes. Going after Guentzel and signing JDB was the right idea to add to team offense, but I didn't think going after Heinen was necessary. In terms of cap space, Z at $5m roughly equals to Forbort + Heinen + Sprong, and I personally prefer the former. Plug in Aman for Heinen and not carrying Sprong, we don't really spend all that much more on the cap. It was doable retaining Z, still bring back Myers and add VD, if we really wanted to.

It is fine to try to address the blueline in season, and they absolutely must now, but I prefer they try to add a minor piece to an already solid blueline, rather than trying to add an impact piece to a fairly shallow blueline. In terms of assets (picks/prospects) it would be cheaper and easier to acquire getting a minor piece.

Different team building philosophy I guess, neither is "right" or "wrong", both could prove successful/unsuccessful in the end.

The offense was hot early in the 23-24 season because they were shooting a zillion percent and that was unsustainable and predictably came down. The throughline was that their scoring chance generation was not at a high level, both early and late in the season, and in the playoffs. I mentioned the point about poor scoring chance generation multiple times early last season and was proven correct. This offseason they prioritized players who can create offense, particularly on the rush (Debrusk, Sprong), which was a huge area of need. Again, this was the right call from Allvin.

Even if you do a direct swap of the three players mentioned for Z, the math still doesn't work out. They still need more players on the roster and extra bodies. You still need another couple forwards. Even if they are toward league minimum, that is ~$1.6-$2M in cap space you are not accounting for.

Perhaps it may be easier/cheaper to address a forward need in-season, than a defense need. But it wasn't the team defense that needed to be addressed in the first place.

 

[pitseleh]

It's a fun thought experiment. Here's all the free agents (I'll include Brannstrom) they signed.

DeBrusk - 5.5
Joshua - 3.25
Myers - 3.0
Heinen - 2.25
Desharnais - 2.0
Blueger - 1.8
Sherwood - 1.5
Forbort - 1.5
Sprong - 0.975
Brannstrom - 0.9

If we assume the 4.6m was the max the Canucks were willing to go cap hit wise then if you remove Forbort, Desharnais, and Heinen that frees 5.75m. Would then probably not sign Sprong and run PDG and Friedman.

I do wonder how much of their approach was about leaving space for Guentzel. Sounds like they upped their offer around the draft when it started to become clear that Tampa was in it, but was too late at that point.

 

[Vector]

I do wonder how much of their approach was about leaving space for Guentzel. Sounds like they upped their offer around the draft when it started to become clear that Tampa was in it, but was too late at that point.

That's what Dhaliwal was implying. Once it became clear that Guentzel wasn't an option, the Canucks pivoted back to Zadorov but by that point he decided that he was offended.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

The offense was hot early in the 23-24 season because they were shooting a zillion percent and that was unsustainable and predictably came down. The throughline was that their scoring chance generation was not at a high level, both early and late in the season, and in the playoffs. I mentioned the point about poor scoring chance generation multiple times early last season and was proven correct. This offseason they prioritized players who can create offense, particularly on the rush (Debrusk, Sprong), which was a huge area of need. Again, this was the right call from Allvin.

Even if you do a direct swap of the three players mentioned for Z, the math still doesn't work out. They still need more players on the roster and extra bodies. You still need another couple forwards. Even if they are toward league minimum, that is ~$1.6-$2M in cap space you are not accounting for.

Perhaps it may be easier/cheaper to address a forward need in-season, than a defense need. But it wasn't the team defense that needed to be addressed in the first place.

I agree that the chance generation wasn't very good, I'm assuming a part of it was due to the system, but the late season regression was made much worse by Petey's struggle. Not only was EP's line not very good after February, the PP1 was also sputtering from that point on. Again, my assuming was a healthy Petey and the addition of Debrusk was more than enough. I just don't see Heinen as a needle mover and think his signing was redundant.

According to capwages.com, our 12F (excluding Heinen and Sprong) comes to $47.59167m; our 6D (excluding Forbort and Juulsen) comes to $24.25m; 3G comes to 6.725m; retained salary on Mikheyev and Poolman is $1.2125m; and OEL's buyout is $2.346667m. Total $82.034587m. Add Zadorov at $5m comes to $87.034587m. We can add a F at $0.9m to make a 23 men roster, and still come under the $88m cap. So, its tight but doable, but this way they won't bank much cap space for a deadline add. Mind you, we are currently not banking much either, its no major difference.

Anyways, its more a philosophical difference, like I said before. We are putting a lot of pressure on Hughes/Hronek this way, but they are our top pairing for a reason, so hope they can deliver. Also hope Heinen changes my mind about him, so far I'm seeing him as a redundant piece (especially once Joshua returns), a $2.25m 4th liner is not what we need right now.

 

[F A N]

I guess it's a way to spin it but I just think I see it more neutral, not needing to label everything, if you go in tougher on negotiations you're going to get what you want more often than you don't and when you're dealing with non-impact non-star players oh well

Not sure why you have to label it as a spin. Regardless, I don't know if you have done much negotiations but "if you go in tougher on negotiations you're" NOT "going to get what you want more often than you don't." What you're advocating here is also opposite of what has been reported as Rutherford's approach. The purpose is to come up with a deal that works for both sides. Not try and press every advantage and screw the other side.

How did zadorob get 6 years in the end.. and the fact he apparently talked to lindholm about playing there

Huh? Not sure what you're trying to say here.

His playoff performance may have got them the fifth year offered by us but why did it suddenly become six if he wanted five.

What's with all these questions that you can speculate the answer yourself or yar? As I mentioned, he reportedly wanted a 5-6 year contract from the Flames. It sounds like he was willing to accept 5x$4.6M before the playoffs which is where the team and Z left the negotiations. Are you suggesting that Zadorov is somehow being greedy for asking what he did get on the open market?

The price was too high. Allvin's hard line $5x5. His initial offer was less, in the area of $4.6M x 4 or 5. That's negotiating.

I think you're missing my point here. Allvin's last offer to Zadorov before the playoffs was reportedly 4x$4.6M. Zadorov was willing to accept that AAV but with a 5 year term. At the end, Allvin was willing to offer 5x$5M to keep Zadorov. This is actually the type of negotiations you want to avoid.

I say this sharing similar views as you previously when it came to Zadorov's worth, but what we individually think Zadorov is worth doesn't change the analysis. It's too early to say what the "right decision" is, but I assume that if given a choice, Allvin would have signed Zadorov to 5x$4.6M when he had the opportunity to do so before the playoffs.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

That's what Dhaliwal was implying. Once it became clear that Guentzel wasn't an option, the Canucks pivoted back to Zadorov but by that point he decided that he was offended.

I can't blame Allvin for his priorities, it was the right approach. Z getting offended is too bad, but I wouldn't have change the order of operation there. Perhaps signing Z to $5m x 5 right after the playoff was possible, but it probably means no shot at Guentzel, so I get why Allvin wants to leave as much room as possible for UFA season.

 

[Vector]

Interview with Darren Dreger
Time Stamp 41:35

Miller:
-no one is going to disclose specifics
-anytime a centreman isn't taking faceoffs, it's arm related
-has been told by people he trusts, that are close to the organization, is that Miller's injury is not serious
-sounds like something Miller can play through

Goaltending:
-Demko is not physically ready to join the team
-teams need three quality NHL goalies

Joshua:
-is not far away
-has been given the indication that he's a couple of weeks away
-just having him around is a huge boost
-10 days to 2 weeks from being available

Heinen:
-thinks he's a good fit
-just figuring out the chemistry right now
-coaching staff likes his game

Ray Ferraro:
-one of the people that were submitting Ferraro's BC Sports Hall of Fame nomination called Dreger to get his opinion; gets an email 2 or 3 weeks ago acknowledging that Ferraro will be inducted; replies to the email asking if Ferraro knows and got confirmation that he did; calls Ray and congratulates him but it's silent on the other end; danced around the subject for a couple of minutes before Dreger tells him and it turned out Ferraro just forgot and was leaving Dreger sweating that he spoiled a surprise

 

[bossram]

I think you're missing my point here. Allvin's last offer to Zadorov before the playoffs was reportedly 4x$4.6M. Zadorov was willing to accept that AAV but with a 5 year term. At the end, Allvin was willing to offer 5x$5M to keep Zadorov. This is actually the type of negotiations you want to avoid.

I say this sharing similar views as you previously when it came to Zadorov's worth, but what we individually think Zadorov is worth doesn't change the analysis. It's too early to say what the "right decision" is, but I assume that if given a choice, Allvin would have signed Zadorov to 5x$4.6M when he had the opportunity to do so before the playoffs.

I don't think so. That was Allvin's final offer before the playoffs, because that was commensurate with Z as a player, before the playoffs.

The playoffs were the first time in Z's career he'd actually played successfully above a 5D role. Given that information, I think it was reasonable for Allvin's evaluation of Z to improve, and with that, an increased contract offer (again I do not agree with that evaluation, but that isn't the point here).

After the playoffs, Z's self-worth also inflated. He thought he was worth substantially more. It was too rich for Allvin, and went above his hard line (post-playoffs).

 

[Nick Lang]

A few things here:
1) Idon't think people are "still whining", but it is definitely a valid criticism that we went from Hughes-Soucy-Z last playoff to Hughes-Soucy-Forbort/Brannstrom this season. Our LD definitely took a hit. You may or may not agree with paying Zadorov $4.6m x 5 or $5m x 5, but the defense got weaker this year is probably not in dispute. Had Allvin replaced Z with an equal quality 2/3LD, I think most fans would be ok with losing Z to UFA.
2) I still don't think most fans have issues with letting Zadorov walk. I haven't comb through all the posts but I don't remember seeing many (or any) "6+ years at WELL ABOVE $5m" offer that you stated. Again, I think the issue is we went into this season with a somewhat injury-prone Soucy as 2LD and a pretty limited player in Forbort as 3LD.
3) In a rising cap world, I really don't think a #4/5D that can move up and down the lineup is a price too high. If we had young players or prospects ready to take over, that would've been different, but we have nothing in the pipeline on the LD front. D-Petey might make it but even then is he reliable enough for a contending team in the next couple seasons, where our window is most open? After him we have long shots that may or may not even be AHL players. Again, if we had contingency plans, thats one thing. But going into this season with Soucy/Forbort as 2LD/3LD in a contending window is definitely a let down.

Again, I don't think losing Z is the end of the world, and its fine that Allvin "held the line", but seeing the current blueline comparing to last playoff, it definitely feels a lot weaker.

A number of people simply don't account for the fact that our cap space is severely limited and we were always going to suffer somewhere. I have to disagree. $5 mil for a third line defender is too much percentage wise .. especially when you have no ELC's and two defenders already making near $8, and one about to increase dramatically.

Imo and what I think Allvin is doing is targeting a 2 LD. It would have been silly to spend that money on Z when we have Soucy already who can slide down to 3 LD if need be.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

A number of people simply don't account for the fact that our cap space is severely limited and we were always going to suffer somewhere. I have to disagree. $5 mil for a third line defender is too much percentage wise .. especially when you have no ELC's and two defenders already making near $8, and one about to increase dramatically.

Imo and what I think Allvin is doing is targeting a 2 LD. It would have been silly to spend that money on Z when we have Soucy already who can slide down to 3 LD if need be.

To the first bolded point, I don't look at it that way, I think based on last years usage and projecting forward, Soucy and Z essentially share the 2LD/3LD slot. Roster flexibility is a good thing, it allows player to play up and down the lineup based on merit and situation, it also hedge against injuries.

To the second bolded point, its great to target a 2LD, but with what cap space though? The money that we didn't spend on Z, has already been spent elsewhere. We have to dump significant amount of cap in any trade for a 2LD, it isn't like we have $5m sitting there ready to be deployed.

Also, I'm not sure why everybody here has Soucy as 2LD set in stone? Prior to coming over, Soucy has been used mostly as a 3LD in 2 other different organizations over 5 seasons. For all the flak Zadorov took for "only playing like a 2LD for 10-12 games", the sample size is not much better for Soucy as a 2LD either (only 40 games played last season due to injuries).

 

[David71]

A number of people simply don't account for the fact that our cap space is severely limited and we were always going to suffer somewhere. I have to disagree. $5 mil for a third line defender is too much percentage wise .. especially when you have no ELC's and two defenders already making near $8, and one about to increase dramatically.

Imo and what I think Allvin is doing is targeting a 2 LD. It would have been silly to spend that money on Z when we have Soucy already who can slide down to 3 LD if need be.

lets play gm fantasy here. if at somepoint this season the team is doing well, maybe mid november to early december depending on where the canucks are in the standings, wouldnt be surprised if chef alvin calls a couple of teams with LHD avaliabilty and see what he assets he would give up to aquire that piece.

say LA for example. van gets gavirkov signed for 1 more year after this year i think? or last year of his deal. maybe he gives b- c level prospect+pick?

hughes hronek
vladislav garivkov/myers
soucy/VD.

2-year contract with a cap hit of $5,875,000 per season. His contract expires at the end of the 2024-25 season,