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[thecupismine]

I know I'm beating a dead horse but this was clear in the playoffs last year and it has continued this season. People talk about the defense but I don't trust this offense, even with all the talent.

I don't question the talent, mind you. It's the way they play.

It's been obvious since last year - this is very, very clearly a puckmoving issue (and Petterson playing like a scrub). Outside of Hughes/Hronek, this team plays half the game without someone who can make a clean breakout pass. Brannstrom fixes this a little bit, but it still needs work.

Blaming Tocchet also seems crazy to me. This core has had the same issue with generating chances since Travis Green, regardless of how they play. They scored a lot under Boudreau, but still had issues controling the flow of play because again, the defense was bad at transition play.

It reminds me of how Vigneault's teams were blamed for playing too conservatively, then Ohlund/Mitchell were replaced with Ehrhoff/Hamhuis and magically the team became a top 5 offensive team in the league.

 

[HairyKneel]

Yeah it definitely feels like I'm watching the early-mid 2000s Minnesota Wild teams

I don't think it's that bad but your point is noted. I'd like to see how they play with Thatcher the Snatcher back. Thing is that bottom pairing is weak and if they even had a pairing as good as Soucy/Myers or close to it they'd be laughing. That middle pairing is getting crushed in large part due to their zone starts and QOC.

Defensive depth is so key. You can never have enough good D men. A good D is the engine of a good team. Robinson, Lapointe, Savard.... oh yeah we also have these kids Engblom and Langway. Potvin, Persson, Langevin, Morrow. Coffey, Huddy, Lowe and Slats would knife a guy from free agency or a trade. Pittsburgh is the only team with sustainable success that won with a mediocre D. Sorry for the rant but I hope they get another solid D man but I don't want them to cockblock Willander on the right side. FH is here long term. Quinten has two years beyond this season here. His contract will be in the 15 million range if he keeps doing what he's doing. He's a great kid and not some kid hat wants to leave the country as soon as he can. He wants to win here.

Sorry for the long winded rant here Nuckles. I do love the attention to detail with the D but agreed I don't want to watch kitty bar the door hockey long term. With the prices they charge, they need to amp it up a bit. I hope (think) they know this. It's an entertainment business at the end of the day. Sure sometimes you lay an egg but you need an aesthetically good product to sell to the fans. I'm going to Springsteen in three weeks and I know he'll put on a good show

This might be controversial, but here goes: this is 100% on the coaching staff. I don't think Tocchet is anything more than a mid-level coach - he can do well when a team is governing themselves, or when he has roster that collectively plays exactly how he wants them to play.

Fact is, he is not a good match for some of our more skilled players and he is forcing them to move away from everything that has made them successful professionals in this league. A quality coach should be getting the most out of players to make them the best versions of themselves - not just Mini Tocchets hitting everything that moves and grinding teams into the ice. There is zero reason this team should be struggling to produce at the level they are currently showcasing with the amount of talent on this roster.

I think the Jack Adams went to Rick's head a bit and he came into camp thinking he knew best across the board. I seriously think Allvin and Rutherford need to consider a coaching change if we see a solid coach sent packing in the first quarter of the season if a team is having a poor start. The hot 1st half last year had everyone fooled - it wasn't anything Rick did. It was that every star player had figured out how to work together and play to each other's strengths.

Interesting take. Totally disagree

 

[brock hughes007]

This might be controversial, but here goes: this is 100% on the coaching staff. I don't think Tocchet is anything more than a mid-level coach - he can do well when a team is governing themselves, or when he has roster that collectively plays exactly how he wants them to play.

Fact is, he is not a good match for some of our more skilled players and he is forcing them to move away from everything that has made them successful professionals in this league. A quality coach should be getting the most out of players to make them the best versions of themselves - not just Mini Tocchets hitting everything that moves and grinding teams into the ice. There is zero reason this team should be struggling to produce at the level they are currently showcasing with the amount of talent on this roster.

I think the Jack Adams went to Rick's head a bit and he came into camp thinking he knew best across the board. I seriously think Allvin and Rutherford need to consider a coaching change if we see a solid coach sent packing in the first quarter of the season if a team is having a poor start. The hot 1st half last year had everyone fooled - it wasn't anything Rick did. It was that every star player had figured out how to work together and play to each other's strengths.

I think he has lost some of the players and it's showing this year.I am not a Tocchet fan anyways.Alvin is not going to pull the plug just yet.I agree with what your getting at tho.

 

[credulous]

whether it's coaching or talent level it's obvious this team has subpar puck movement and subpar offense mostly because of the defense personnel. hughes can do it and hronek can do it inconsistently but when any other defenders are on the ice the team struggles to get any kind of speed or motion exiting their own zone or entering the oppositions. they rely far too much on their forecheck to generate any kind of offense

they really need to either reconsider the systems they run to account for the personnel they have or they need to reinvent the defense. again

 

[VanJack]

I think he has lost some of the players and it's showing this year.I am not a Tocchet fan anyways.Alvin is not going to pull the plug just yet.I agree with what your getting at tho.

In the off-season the Canucks overhauled half their roster.......a coach can only do so much during a training camp and an exhibition schedule.

If the Canucks are still stumbling along in January, then maybe you can start legitimately questioning the coach.

 

[Vector]

When 2/3s of your offensive drivers are injury/ineffective, your offense is going to falter. The defence beyond Hughes/Hronek struggling to cleanly breakout obviously doesn't help but that doesn't account for the top-6 being unable to generate quality chances when they maintain possession. If when Miller and Pettersson get healthy and confident, the offense will turn around. The extent to which it will is the question and not one anyone actually knows the answer to.

 

[Jay26]

This might be controversial, but here goes: this is 100% on the coaching staff. I don't think Tocchet is anything more than a mid-level coach - he can do well when a team is governing themselves, or when he has roster that collectively plays exactly how he wants them to play.

Fact is, he is not a good match for some of our more skilled players and he is forcing them to move away from everything that has made them successful professionals in this league. A quality coach should be getting the most out of players to make them the best versions of themselves - not just Mini Tocchets hitting everything that moves and grinding teams into the ice. There is zero reason this team should be struggling to produce at the level they are currently showcasing with the amount of talent on this roster.

I think the Jack Adams went to Rick's head a bit and he came into camp thinking he knew best across the board. I seriously think Allvin and Rutherford need to consider a coaching change if we see a solid coach sent packing in the first quarter of the season if a team is having a poor start. The hot 1st half last year had everyone fooled - it wasn't anything Rick did. It was that every star player had figured out how to work together and play to each other's strengths.

In my mind, not controversial at all. I've considered the coaching issue going back to the playoffs but I haven't really leaned in to it, given the team's success. Figured he deserves some faith and patience. I also believe in players being accountable and "figuring it out", whatever it is.

But yeah, it definitely checks out.

 

[Jay26]

It's been obvious since last year - this is very, very clearly a puckmoving issue (and Petterson playing like a scrub). Outside of Hughes/Hronek, this team plays half the game without someone who can make a clean breakout pass. Brannstrom fixes this a little bit, but it still needs work.

Blaming Tocchet also seems crazy to me. This core has had the same issue with generating chances since Travis Green, regardless of how they play. They scored a lot under Boudreau, but still had issues controling the flow of play because again, the defense was bad at transition play.

It reminds me of how Vigneault's teams were blamed for playing too conservatively, then Ohlund/Mitchell were replaced with Ehrhoff/Hamhuis and magically the team became a top 5 offensive team in the league.

Right, but how does this explain why it's like pulling teeth to get shots on net (or even attempt to shoot) when they're already established in the offensive zone? Pushing the play isn't really the issue here, at least for me.

By the way, I'm not suggesting that puck movement isn't a concern. We all know the D needs a lot of work. Just saying it isn't the whole picture.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Though I think a longer term play would be:
Suter Miller Boeser
DeBrusk Pettersson Hoglander
Joshua Blueger Garland
Heinen X Sherwood

This makes the most sense to me with 4 tried and tested lines.

I think this will ultimately be it as well. 1st & 3rd line stay exactly the same as last season (were excellent), with lines 2 & 4 (weak) getting a major boost.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

I know I'm beating a dead horse but this was clear in the playoffs last year and it has continued this season. People talk about the defense but I don't trust this offense, even with all the talent.

I don't question the talent, mind you. It's the way they play.

A big story in last years playoffs was the defensive play of the Canucks, still kind of surprising that we’re a very good defensive team but an average offensive team. Our power play needs to be much better and our Superstars have to produce like Superstars. Canucks have to generate more 5-on-5 and it starts with more offensive zone time and puck possession, better puck control with smarter puck movement.

 

[Baby Pettersson]

Willander and a 1st for Anderson.

Yes? No?

 

[Vector]

Willander and a 1st for Anderson.

Yes? No?

Absolutely not.

 

[Jay26]

Willander and a 1st for Anderson.

Yes? No?

No way. If Willander were any lesser of a prospect then you'd have to seriously consider that but it's looking like Willander will be a core member of this team going forward. At least there's enough there to reasonably hope he will be.

 

[Nuckles]

The only way I'd consider moving Willander is if it's near the deadline and

1. the Canucks are at the top of the standings
2. all the key players are healthy and playing well
3. the player being acquired is signed beyond this season for cheap (or retained salary)
4. and they've already acquired a couple of other good pieces so this trade would absolutely put them over the top

 

[VanillaCoke]

With the chef mixing up meatballs I seriously doubt either (any) top swedish prospect are available for even preliminary discussions.

It's probably hoglander that doesn't last the season.

 

[Vector]

If they are going to add anyone, someone has to be subtracted from the line-up. Bains and Juulsen would probably my be the first two. Hoglander holds actual trade value and is continuously moved up and down. Forbort and Desharnais for salary matching purpose. Sprong as well but to a lesser extent.

 

[SelltheTeamFrancesco]

Top prospects hardly ever get trade, except for each other. The best prospect I can remember being trade at the deadline is Erik Brannstrom in the Mark Stone trade. Obviously Forsberg in the Erat trade. Most trades at the deadline look like the Hronek trade, a bunch of picks and maybe a b+ prospect added on top.

 

[dez]

If they are going to add anyone, someone has to be subtracted from the line-up. Bains and Juulsen would probably my be the first two. Hoglander holds actual trade value and is continuously moved up and down. Forbort and Desharnais for salary matching purpose. Sprong as well but to a lesser extent.

Desharnais' second year is problematic, similar to Aman, teams don't want salary beyond this season, another contract PA will have to attach a pick to.

 

[Vector]

Desharnais' second year is problematic, similar to Aman, teams don't want salary beyond this season, another contract PA will have to attach a pick to.

If push comes to shove, you can bury over half of his contract in the AHL. You won’t need to attach any sort of actual asset to get out from him.

 

[credulous]

If push comes to shove, you can bury over half of his contract in the AHL. You won’t need to attach any sort of actual asset to get out from him.

you basically "retain" 850k if you demote desharnais. it's not a big deal to send him down but it does mean he's basically untradeable unless you attach an asset or someone decides they can get something out of him

 

[Vector]

you basically "retain" 850k if you demote desharnais. it's not a big deal to send him down but it does mean he's basically untradeable unless you attach an asset or someone decides they can get something out of him

If you’re only saving 850k, then the asset you’re sending with him isn’t of any value anyway. At this point, his contract slot is worth more than him.

 

[brock hughes007]

In the off-season the Canucks overhauled half their roster.......a coach can only do so much during a training camp and an exhibition schedule.

If the Canucks are still stumbling along in January, then maybe you can start legitimately questioning the coach.

Delete

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

When 2/3s of your offensive drivers are injury/ineffective, your offense is going to falter. The defence beyond Hughes/Hronek struggling to cleanly breakout doesn't help but that doesn't account for the top-6 being unable to generate quality chances when they maintain possession. If when Miller and Pettersson get healthy and confident, the offense will turn around. The extent to which it will is the question and not one anyone actually knows the answer to.

Exactly. Another (Brannstrom) bottom pairing puck moving D isn’t going to help the power play score or our superstars to start producing like superstars, heck It’ll probably just hinder the Canucks good defensive game. Our Star players have to start burying them, they have a much superior supporting cast than most of the other NHL Stars do. Our Stars need to really step up, period.

 

[VanJack]

Willander and a 1st for Anderson.

Yes? No?

Wilander is practically 'untouchable'. Finding a rare right shot d-men with that kind of mobility and edgework is nigh on impossible. You're lucky if you draft a kid like that once in a decade.

There's not an impending UFA d-man out there that would ever justify sacrificing Wilander at the TDL....and certainly not to a division rival like Calgary.

 

[TruGr1t]

Waiving Aman cleared a spot to activate Joshua. They can send Bains down and bring one of Raty or Lekkerimaki up. I don’t think they’ll call-up Lekkerimaki unless Joshua’s return doesn’t facilitate an offensive turnaround.

Yes, Raty makes sense, Dhaliwal's comment on Lekkerimaki was more confusing. He is playing well, generating a ton of shots down there, and we've had to move Suter to wing due to the fact nobody has really popped in the top-six outside Garland. But not sure how they juggle that roster.

Bains down for Raty makes a bunch of sense, especially when Joshua returns. I think it's becoming pretty evident Suter is a better winger than centre.