Look at Chris Clark's stats before you say "Gretzky made players around him better and that is something that Ovechkin has not done." It's an asinine statement. Clark went from a 10 goal max scorer in his career, to a 20 and 30 goal scorer as the RW on Ovie's line with Zubie as the Center. So before Backstrom.
Gretzky/Ovechkin. Major gap in supporting cast talent.
- Thread starter GRob83
- Start date
As a goal scorer Ovechkin has more impressive career taking supporting cast and era into account. If you look at anything beyond goals, it's not even in the ballpark.
The impressive thing about Gretzky is he had the goal scoring record in the first place, while being more of a career playmaker. At his peak as a goalscorer he was as good as anyone, but that was roughly 5 years. When it was all said and done, he had over twice the amount of assists than he had goals.
Era might have been different and numbers are not directly comparable, but when Gretzky was doing his 190-215 point seasons, the next best in the league was usually in the 120-140 range. When Gretzky had his 160+ assist season, he was the only player in the league to break 100.
The impressive thing about Gretzky is he had the goal scoring record in the first place, while being more of a career playmaker. At his peak as a goalscorer he was as good as anyone, but that was roughly 5 years. When it was all said and done, he had over twice the amount of assists than he had goals.
Era might have been different and numbers are not directly comparable, but when Gretzky was doing his 190-215 point seasons, the next best in the league was usually in the 120-140 range. When Gretzky had his 160+ assist season, he was the only player in the league to break 100.
Yeah, the first 6 years of Ovi's career he averaged 52 assists a season. After that though, his assists fell off a cliff (and I'm not including the two shortened seasons. Seasons 8-13 (skipping the two short years) he averaged 29 assists. So he was a pretty dynamic player early in his career, but by his late 20s those assists were really drying up.
kugelbahn
Registered User
- Feb 15, 2018
- 385
- 1,074
Gretz goals went around 50% down in late twenties, from 80-90 to 40-50, and even further in 30s.
Gretz is playmaker, OV is goals scorer, their secondary function diminished with age.
I think Backstrom without OV is a regular player (we will never know),
Kurri without Gretz was still great, 102P in 76G at age 28.
I agree. It wasn't meant as a specific criticism of Ovechkin as opposed to a response to the idea that Ovechkin made the players around him better. He did, but not for that long (unless you want to argue that he inflated Backstrom's assist totals significantly) compared to Gretzky, due to their primary functions.
This again?
Maybe Gretzky instead of assisting on 1963 goals and was more focused on some future guy possibly breaking his goal record should have been more selfish?
I for the record have had Ovechkin as the greatest goal scorer of all time but posts like this make me question my judgment and support players isn't only about HHOF team mates that's respectfully such a lazy opinion.
They are tied in Games Played. The major difference is that Gretzky was on ice for 3,524 goals compared to Ovechkins 2,338 which shows how much goaltending has improved since then. The Oilers averaged 5 goals per game while Gretzky was there basically playing on an All-Star team.
Sasha Orlov
Lord of the Manor
- Jun 22, 2018
- 8,275
- 28,004
Why do you think the Oilers were scoring so much? Maybe because of the guy putting up 200+ points per year?
If it was so easy back then, why weren't more guys putting up numbers like that?
Those 1200 extra goals Gretzky was on ice for just happens to be almost exactly how many more assists Gretzky has than Ovi. Almost like Gretzky was involved in making those goals happen.
Mick Riddleton
We are allies, this is a partnership not an empire
Cherry-picking styles in both time frames is an easy game. If goaltending was so bad, why didn't everyone score 90 plus goals and have 200 plus points ? I will tell you why, elite players rise to the top. Ovie did it in this era. Enjoy this moment as everyone enjoyed Wayne and his accomplishments.
Why did the Oilers win a Stanley Cup their 2nd year without Gretzky (sweeping his Kings 4-0 along the way)? Why did Gretzky never win another Stanley Cup after leaving Edmonton?
Sasha Orlov
Lord of the Manor
- Jun 22, 2018
- 8,275
- 28,004
FiveTacos
Registered User
Yeah every era has its advantages and disadvantages. It unquestionably was easier to score then. But at the same time you were far more likely to have your body worn out and career shortened by dirty plays back then too. And no question modern stick tech is a big advantage for modern goal scorers. It is what it is, at the end of the day if you were lucky enough you got to see them both.
A sign of not knowing hockey: bashing goalies and defense of an era where one player scored tons more than the rest. If goalies and defense were that bad we would have several 200 point players.
Tiresome with so many clueless forumists. Denials.
Tiresome with so many clueless forumists. Denials.
Just pointing out that almost all of the players that Won a Cup with Gretzky also Won without him. He can't say the same. Edmonton without Gretzky in the 80's still would have been Cup favorites. The Capitals without Ovechkin would be a lottery team.
Mike C
Registered User
TheLegend27
Registered User
Gretzky made a lot of those players appear better than they are. Off topic, but Crosby has had a better supporting cast than Ovi for the most part. That 2016 Pens team was super deep and didn’t need Crosby to play like Crosby to win. Malkin also single handily gifted Crosby another cup back in 2009.
FiveTacos
Registered User
Gretz's teams in LA were by and large pretty mediocre. They were lucky to even make one Finals, and that one appearance Gretzky practically dragged them there playing with a bad back.
And anyway if you wanna head down that path, then I don't want to hear a single excuse about Ovechkin's many playoff losses explained away by blah blah blah supporting cast. Because you don't get to have it both ways.
bleedgreen
Registered User
So many of his po goals are predicated on people feeding him one timer passes. Clearly he had more than enough pp talent around him his whole career. He’s always had good defenseman feeding him those passes. His game was so much more based on people feeding him vs how Gretzky did it I don’t know how you can say he didn’t have enough talent around him. He wouldn’t have come close without good passing to him.
Gretzky has won the exact amount of cups without the Oilers as Ovechkin has without the Caps.
They went 10-5-1 when Ovechkin went down with an injury. That's a far cry from a lottery team.
Ovechkin most definitely had the better 5v5 linemates during their careers. Backstrom was way better than anything Sid regularly had to work with.
Bear of Bad News
Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
- Sep 27, 2005
- 13,622
- 33,002
Hey. Grant Fuhr had fourteen assists one year and he earned every damn one of them.
I mean, I assume.
AlwaysSunnyInTampa
Oh no! We suck again!!
I don't think anyone is going to argue otherwise that Gretzky didn't make his teammates better. But if we are going to compare eras, Ovechkin would have scored 100 goals a season on a near-regular basis in Gretzky's day. It feels like every Gretzky highlight ever is either him clapping a goal 20 feet out unobstructed or passing to Kurri or Coffey doing the same. Gretzky scored those goals because he had the common sense to shoot at every possible opportunity. Easily the smartest player of all time.
But imagine your goal scoring dropping off that percipitously at 28 because everyone abandoned the stand up style and not losing much in the way of talented teammates. What Ovechkin has done is lunacy and its only made more crazy by the fact that he undebatedly had lesser teammates
But imagine your goal scoring dropping off that percipitously at 28 because everyone abandoned the stand up style and not losing much in the way of talented teammates. What Ovechkin has done is lunacy and its only made more crazy by the fact that he undebatedly had lesser teammates
Last edited:
