Gretzky/Ovechkin. Major gap in supporting cast talent.

[archangel2]

Gretzky scored 894 Goals while playing with at least 11 players that would go on to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Jari Kurri, Mark Messier, Glenn Andersen, Luc Robitaille, Paul Coffey, Kevin Lowe, Larry Robinson, Rob Blake, Brian Leetch, Pat Lafontaine and Grant Fuhr.

Ovechkin has 895 while never really playing with a slam dunk Hockey Hall of Fame candidate. Backstrom and Carlson would be the only possibilities IMO and they are borderline. Sergei Fedorov played a total of 70 games as a Capital when he was nearly 40 years old and had already established himself as 1st ballot HHOFer so should he count? Backstrom assisted on 279 Ovechkin goals so less than 1/3rd. What he has accomplished is more impressive because of who he accomplished it with IMO.

And goaltending. With the Oilers? 99 had like 7 hall of famers on one team alone. Same in LA(all be it some of the same people)

 

[GRob83]

Gretzky's goal scoring declined due to injuries, not a lack of ability to translate his game to a new era.

Are you sure about that? He certainly sucked as a coach, which is kind of inexplicable for the smartest hockey mind of all time no?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Gretz goals went around 50% down in late twenties, from 80-90 to 40-50, and even further in 30s.
Gretz is playmaker, OV is goals scorer, their secondary function diminished with age.

You’re right, but in this context Gretzky’s “secondary function” of scoring goals made him a 5-time goalscoring leader and the all-time leading goal scorer in history. At his peak he was scoring near 50% more goals than anyone else in the league, including the HHOF teammates he was dishing videogame numbers of assists to.

Ovechkin had three years in the top-10 for assists.

These aren’t on the same level. Gretzky actually had two primary functions, goals and assists, and then one of those categories tailed off as he aged.

 

[GRob83]

You’re right, but in this context Gretzky’s “secondary function” of scoring goals made him a 5-time goalscoring leader and the all-time leading goal scorer in history. At his peak he was scoring near 50% more goals than anyone else in the league, including the HHOF teammates he was dishing videogame numbers of assists to.

Ovechkin had three years in the top-10 for assists.

These aren’t on the same level. Gretzky actually had two primary functions, goals and assists, and then one of those categories tailed off as he aged.

Gretzky tallied a boatload of assists by winning faceoffs back to Coffey. No pass involved. It's just another way centers are able to rack up more points than wingers. Imagine going to the circle for a powerplay faceoff knowing that Kurri, Coffey, Messier and Anderson are on the ice. Easy money.

 

[Video Nasty]

So we’re still going to do this? The guy broke the record and there is still a level of insecurity so high that Gretzky needs to be dragged? I don’t get it.

 

[Grifter3511]

Are you sure about that? He certainly sucked as a coach, which is kind of inexplicable for the smartest hockey mind of all time no?

This comment is out to lunch. All the best coaches (with minor exceptions) were plumbers and grinders. Do you think Gretzky ever had to worry about the Xs and Os of the game? 'K, take the puck behind the net. Wait for a man to get open in a scoring position while not getting checked, and then put the puck perfectly on his stick.'

The best in any field often make the worst teachers because not only is so much of their ability inate, but they think and did things that 90% of the players can't so they can't relate to most of the players.

 

[CTHabsfan]

Are you sure about that? He certainly sucked as a coach, which is kind of inexplicable for the smartest hockey mind of all time no?

He couldn't transfer his ability to other players.

 

[kevsh]

Enough to know that the goaltending was absolute garbage and scoring was extremely high

For the record, #99 won the goal scoring title by 28 goals in '81-82. No argument goal scoring was easier back then overall but he did far better than anyone else.

 

[kevsh]

Are you sure about that? He certainly sucked as a coach, which is kind of inexplicable for the smartest hockey mind of all time no?

That is just a terrible argument. You're trying way too hard.

 

[Voight]

I guess what I'm trying to point out is that Nicklas Backstrom and John Carlson have the best chance at being Hall of Famers and neither of them are locks. Backstrom is probably borderline and Carlson a long shot IMO. Nowhere near as good as Gretzky's past teammates.

IMO Backstrom has a better case than borderline.

NHL Stats

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Seventh in points during his prime.

5x top 10 points
7x top 10 assists

 

[3074326]

So we’re still going to do this? The guy broke the record and there is still a level of insecurity so high that Gretzky needs to be dragged? I don’t get it.

Yeah, it’s insufferable after hearing this nonsense for two decades. Ovechkin played with talented players. Absurd not to think so. Comparing most players teammates to Gretzky’s teammates is beyond silly. Pretty absurdly high bar.

Drop the insecurity, OP. Ovie is the scoring king. You don’t have to be his white knight anymore.

 

[kugelbahn]

You’re right, but in this context Gretzky’s “secondary function” of scoring goals made him a 5-time goalscoring leader and the all-time leading goal scorer in history. At his peak he was scoring near 50% more goals than anyone else in the league, including the HHOF teammates he was dishing videogame numbers of assists to.

Ovechkin had three years in the top-10 for assists.

These aren’t on the same level. Gretzky actually had two primary functions, goals and assists, and then one of those categories tailed off as he aged.

I do not think anybody here argues that they are on same level as players.
I was just replying that secondary function (however you call it) went down for both.
Gretz is undisputed best payer because of both goals scoring and playmaking.

We are comparing two all-time great goals scorers and supporting cast or era for goals scoring specifically.

Here are adjusted goals scoring seasons from

NHL & WHA Yearly Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

NHL & WHA Yearly Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals

www.hockey-reference.com

for what it is worth. It is "relative to the league" as well, adjusts mainly for average goal scoring level of that season with a simple formula.

 

[landy]

That Wayne guy is soooooo overrated.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I do not think anybody here argues that they are on same level as players.
I was just replying that secondary function (however you call it) went down for both.
Gretz is undisputed best payer because of both goals scoring and playmaking.

We are comparing two all-time great goals scorers and supporting cast or era for goals scoring specifically.

Here are adjusted goals scoring seasons from

NHL & WHA Yearly Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

NHL & WHA Yearly Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals

www.hockey-reference.com

for what it is worth. It is "relative to the league" as well, adjusts mainly for average goal scoring level of that season with a simple formula.

View attachment 1010132

FWIW, I do think that Ovechkin rather easily takes the title of GOAT goal scorer. Not because of what they did at their peaks (IMO that’s more of an argument) but because the totality of Ovechkin’s record as a goal scorer puts him firmly a step behind Gretzky’s career achievements.

 

[Duffy13]

I do not think anybody here argues that they are on same level as players.
I was just replying that secondary function (however you call it) went down for both.
Gretz is undisputed best payer because of both goals scoring and playmaking.

We are comparing two all-time great goals scorers and supporting cast or era for goals scoring specifically.

Here are adjusted goals scoring seasons from

NHL & WHA Yearly Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

NHL & WHA Yearly Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals

www.hockey-reference.com

for what it is worth. It is "relative to the league" as well, adjusts mainly for average goal scoring level of that season with a simple formula.

View attachment 1010132

Dye and Morenz? They didn't play hockey, it was rugby rules on ice, they weren't even allowed to use a forward pass until 1929. The nets didn't have to be consistent from rink to rink, each team could have no more than 12 skaters. Offsides didn't exist until 1930, Freezing the puck was forbidden and if a goalie did freeze the puck a faceoff 10 feet from front of the net took place with no players allowed to be between the goalie and the faceoff... Like how the hell are they on an era adjusted list? The game entered the modern era in the 40s anything before that was an experiment.

Edit: Jesus Christ, I missed Weiland, on the list. What a joke.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Dye and Morenz? They didn't play hockey, it was rugby rules on ice, they weren't even allowed to use a forward pass until 1929. The nets didn't have to be consistent from rink to rink, each team could have no more than 12 skaters. Offsides didn't exist until 1930, Freezing the puck was forbidden and if a goalie did freeze the puck a faceoff 10 feet from front of the net took place with no players allowed to be between the goalie and the faceoff... Like how the hell are they on an era adjusted list? The game entered the modern era in the 40s anything before that was an experiment.

Edit: Jesus Christ, I missed Weiland, on the list. What a joke.

H-R numbers can be useful for comparing most seasons within a reasonable margin of error, but they don’t translate super well when comparing eras where players got wildly different amounts of ice time as in the 1920s.

 

[Karl Eriksson]

IMO what Gretzky did was more impressive, because a) he wasn't primary a sniper and b) goal scoring is really only a small part of his legacy, when in case of Ovechkin it will be biggest part of his legacy.

This. No one needs goals. Everything but goals matters.

 

[acor]

This. No one needs goals. Everything but goals matters.

How many Ovechkin goals were unasisted? Gretzky (and many other players from past and presence) participated in more goals scored than Ovechkon.

 

[PhilJets]

One of my fave player is OVIE

but Gretzky made his supporting cast and linemates superstars.
Ovie’s linemates most of the time objective is to feed him the puck.

 

[daver]

One factor that never gets talked about is how much less time Wayne would be practicing in this era as his schilling for BET365.com would take up a lot of his time.

 

[KingsFan7824]

Gretzky scored 894 Goals while playing with at least 11 players that would go on to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Jari Kurri, Mark Messier, Glenn Andersen, Luc Robitaille, Paul Coffey, Kevin Lowe, Larry Robinson, Rob Blake, Brian Leetch, Pat Lafontaine and Grant Fuhr.

Sergei Fedorov played a total of 70 games as a Capital when he was nearly 40 years old and had already established himself as 1st ballot HHOFer so should he count?

You're going to ask that about Fedorov, but throw Robinson and LaFontaine in there for Gretzky? Leetch's best days were basically behind him when Gretzky got to the Rangers.

 

[JackSlater]

Yes, Gretzky did have better teammates with the dynasty Oilers than Ovechkin had in Washington. And... what? They also both peaked as goal scorers before their best offensive teammates really entered their primes.

 

[GRob83]

You're going to ask that about Fedorov, but throw Robinson and LaFontaine in there for Gretzky? Leetch's best days were basically behind him when Gretzky got to the Rangers.

I mentioned Fedorov because he is literally the only Hall of Famer that Ovechkin has even played 1 game with. Leetch was 28 when Gretzky joined the Rangers and won the Norris Trophy the same year. Lafontaine was still close to a point per game player and finished 2nd on the team in scoring the following year so what are you even talking about?

 

[Karl Eriksson]

How many Ovechkin goals were unasisted? Gretzky (and many other players from past and presence) participated in more goals scored than Ovechkon.

And I argue goalie equipment has tripled in size. You won't win here.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Gretzky scored 894 Goals while playing with at least 11 players that would go on to be inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Jari Kurri, Mark Messier, Glenn Andersen, Luc Robitaille, Paul Coffey, Kevin Lowe, Larry Robinson, Rob Blake, Brian Leetch, Pat Lafontaine and Grant Fuhr.

Ovechkin has 895 while never really playing with a slam dunk Hockey Hall of Fame candidate. Backstrom and Carlson would be the only possibilities IMO and they are borderline. Sergei Fedorov played a total of 70 games as a Capital when he was nearly 40 years old and had already established himself as 1st ballot HHOFer so should he count? Backstrom assisted on 279 Ovechkin goals so less than 1/3rd. What he has accomplished is more impressive because of who he accomplished it with IMO.

The difference in supporting cast is enormous. It was also easier to score in those days. But your post misses a fundamental point : Gretzky had 2,000 assists and was more of a passer than a scorer. Gretzky's performance is bound to be indefinitely more impressive than a player who specialized in scoring.