Value of: Good RH PMD to Rangers

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

The Jets have Josh Morrissey on deck and ready to graduate at LD; they don't really even have any nearby need to move for an LD as such. The kid skates like a young Scott Niedermayer - his footwork is freakin' incredible, and the Jets are building largely from within.

Sounds great for Winnipeg, Wish Detroit could draft great young D talent any more after Lidstrom it seems like Detroit's D prospects just aren't cutting it case in point probably both Ouellet and Sproul. Pretty much why Detroit has to trade for D our guys just aren't cutting it. Hopefully guys like Russo, Hicketts and Saarijarvi will crack the lineup sooner rather then later. But knowing Holland i'm not holding my breath.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Trading Kreider for a rental.

 

[vipernsx]

Besides Shattenkirk, the only potentially realistic guys I can think of are Trouba and Cody Ceci.

First....James Wisniewski should be on a PTO with NYR not TBL! Hell, throw him a 1yr 1m deal, it's better than a PTO.

Dumba is still out there, though will cost a pound of flesh.
(My guess is the talk about Stepan moving was to Minny for Dumba deal. It only works if Gorto is able to bring in a replacement center, which he wasn't able to work out with Edmonton for RNH. Instead Minny signs Staal and Edmonton moves out Hall so the door is probably shut.)

Gryba could be a bottom pair signing with some PMD ability.

 

[Gump Hasek]

Sounds great for Winnipeg, Wish Detroit could draft great young D talent any more after Lidstrom it seems like Detroit's D prospects just aren't cutting it case in point probably both Ouellet and Sproul. Pretty much why Detroit has to trade for D our guys just aren't cutting it. Hopefully guys like Russo, Hicketts and Saarijarvi will crack the lineup sooner rather then later. But knowing Holland i'm not holding my breath.

Detroit's roster is sort of in a transition; it is unfortunate that you haven't hit on any young D of late.

I conversely don't understand why so many Jets fans are panicked about our LD. It is a bit thin at the prospect level but they can continue to reload at the draft in the meantime and they can always move some B forward prospects for D prospects if management feels a need to add there.

Expect Morrissey will seamlessly slide into the Jets D during the coming season. An incredible skater that can either skate it out in transition and/ or also has a fantastic first pass, is super smart, and was raised by a father that runs a school for d-men; he is the prototypical D for the new era:

 

[Shootertooter]

Klein is a #4/5D that got exposed playing as a 2D at points last season. He's also 31, has value around the NHL because he's a decent player with a good contract, and I don't want to extend him at age 33, so its best to try to trade him for a similar caliber player who might play a slightly different style. Also, I wouldn't mind if we traded him for a younger player, although the player doesn't have to be younger.

With Zucc, he's a very good player, but we don't need Zuccarello to win. We have good forwards without Zucc, we need to acquire a Top 4 RH PMD, otherwise we probably won't be contenders.

Um, yeah we do, I am pretty confident that had Zuc not taken a McD slap shot to the cranium in the Pens series, we probably get to the finals a second time instead of dropping game 7 to Tampa.

 

[Shootertooter]

Shattenkirk for Kreider, Girardi and a 2017 2nd.

I think in order to burn G's salary into this you'd have to make a larger offer. Realistically Kreider isn't going to be traded. But with Vesey here, I could see Miller being moved out. Maybe a Miller, a 1st and either of Girardi/Staal would make at least the salaries more even. Not saying that even this would work, but giving up a 2nd with G is a wishful thinking.

 

[Shootertooter]

You are right, my user name doesn't matter towards this discussion, but I think you don't know what you are saying if you think Miller has more upside than Buch. I can't think of a single aspect of the game, besides face-offs, weight and NHL experience where Miller has an advantage. It wouldn't be a surprise if Buch had a better season than Miller this season. Both are good players and have a lot of trade value, but Buch should have more value in a trade.

I'm going to agree with you on this. Offensively speaking, Buch is projected to be highly skilled and I would imagine of a higher offensive ceiling than Miller. Miller is turning out to be a hell of a player, I think right now he plays a more complete, 3 zone game than Buch. That could change, but as far as purely gifted offensively, I think Buch is a guy the Rangers have not had in their system since Gaborik. Even he learned to play a little bit of defense under Tort's.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I'm going to agree with you on this. Offensively speaking, Buch is projected to be highly skilled and I would imagine of a higher offensive ceiling than Miller. Miller is turning out to be a hell of a player, I think right now he plays a more complete, 3 zone game than Buch. That could change, but as far as purely gifted offensively, I think Buch is a guy the Rangers have not had in their system since Gaborik. Even he learned to play a little bit of defense under Tort's.

Why is Miller usually the first guy sent to the box by AV when he decides who is going to serve a penalty? He obviously doesn't think much of Miller's two way game. Miller has always had a problem with too many turnovers in bad parts of the ice.

Assuming Buch isn't good defensively because he's Russian is a bad assumption. He PK's, and plays well in all three zones. It might take some time at the NHL level, but at the KHL level, he was good defensively.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

To NYR:
Dumba
Pominville

To MIN:
Nash
2nd round pick

 

[Shootertooter]

Why is Miller usually the first guy sent to the box by AV when he decides who is going to serve a penalty? He obviously doesn't think much of Miller's two way game. Miller has always had a problem with too many turnovers in bad parts of the ice.

Assuming Buch isn't good defensively because he's Russian is a bad assumption. He PK's, and plays well in all three zones. It might take some time at the NHL level, but at the KHL level, he was good defensively.

AV is a guy who has consistently played Glass over better skilled younger players and sat Mcilrath in favor of Staal and Girardi when they stunk up the joint........we should not be basing Miller's play, skill level, value or reputation on AV's deployment of him. AV has also been notorious for playing his guy over the kids.

Saying Miller has "always had a problem" with turnovers is kind of a stretch. He's a young player with less than 200 NHL games experience, who has been learning while being inserted and scratched from the line up the past few seasons and in a full 82 game campaign appeared to finally "get it" last season.

I'm not saying Buch is a liability defensively, nor did I make any reference to what he did defensively in the KHL. I've seen the same highlights of him making decent defensive plays, I am saying he is touted for his offensive prowess over anything else, nobody is even talking about how he plays defense because they are highly impressed with his offense.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

AV is a guy who has consistently played Glass over better skilled younger players and sat Mcilrath in favor of Staal and Girardi when they stunk up the joint........we should not be basing Miller's play, skill level, value or reputation on AV's deployment of him. AV has also been notorious for playing his guy over the kids.

Saying Miller has "always had a problem" with turnovers is kind of a stretch. He's a young player with less than 200 NHL games experience, who has been learning while being inserted and scratched from the line up the past few seasons and in a full 82 game campaign appeared to finally "get it" last season.

I'm not saying Buch is a liability defensively, nor did I make any reference to what he did defensively in the KHL. I've seen the same highlights of him making decent defensive plays, I am saying he is touted for his offensive prowess over anything else, nobody is even talking about how he plays defense because they are highly impressed with his offense.

I always talk about his defensive ability.

Last season, he really improved his defense. The season before he wasn't much of a defensive player, but last season he became so much better defensively, and was actually good defensively.

I think Miller is very good, but I think him along with a lot of younger players like Hayes and Kreider aren't very good defensively. Buch and Vesey both come into the NHL with reputations of being pretty good defensively where they had played, they could also struggle defensively in the NHL. Maybe they will, and in that case, Miller and Buch will both be bad defensively.

I'd like to see some improvements from Miller defensively. I think he could be a really important shutdown player, if he did. He takes FO's really well, he's physical, and he has good speed. He could be like Dubinsky, if he did improve his defense. Kreider improving his defense would also be good. Kreider on the PK could really create some odd man chances for us. Do you remember how many odd man chances Hagelin would get on the PK because of his speed?

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Rangers exercise their CBA rights to trade Vesey+Klein for Ryan Ellis.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Rangers exercise their CBA rights to trade Vesey+Klein for Ryan Ellis.

Add in a 2017 2nd, and you have a deal.

 

[Mr Clutch]

Rangers exercise their CBA rights to trade Vesey+Klein for Ryan Ellis.

Haha no college free agent would never come to nyr again

 

[bernmeister]

I like this trade. Makes sense for both teams.

No Miller was 15OA and plays better than selected.
not untouchable, but more than Montour.

Within one page of the initial post:

OP: "I want to talk about trades for a RH PMD that don't involve McD, Stepan, Ziba, or Skjei."

Bern: "Screw that, let's talk about these two deals that worked like gangbusters on my video game that involve two of the guys you don't want to move!"

Once again, because you "disagree w/premise" and think you're so much smarter than everyone else, you jack ANOTHER thread.

Not jacking because it is saying continue with target of RH PMD, but yield to FACT that there is NEED for Rangers to go still younger, and move McD and Step for the right prices.

As to the rest of your
it is unjustified.
Inherent in every proposal is FACT that it is one suggestion in competition with other bids. There is a competition of ideas here.
I stepped up to say, you want to reject what I said, PROVE you have something better than what I came up with, which provides trading partners with established production in exchange for good value.

As to
"and think you're so much smarter than everyone else,"
those are YOUR words, not mine.

When something is in error - such as apparently Montour is exempt - that is something else.
And my props must hold their own vs counter ideas.

But I make no apologies for standing by my attempt to move vets and enlarge younger core, and consistent with that, to tell people to stop trying the reverse and move the younger core, unless there is an exception to the rule where the return is too ridiculous to turn down.

Montour + 2nd is good value for Miller. I would also take that.

I'd rather move Kreider though.

not enough for Miller and Kreider is extremely hard to replace. So no x2

They aren't trading him.

Concur, Kreider stays

Bern, you had Brassard in every trade proposal, until his NTC kicked in. Now you do it with Stepan. Once his NMC starts, you will move on to Kreider to trade him before the clause kicks in.

Stop trading away players with pending clauses just because...

I will not stop, NYR should have no more NMCs. period.
Again, even that not the case, we are better w/the return for higher end talent which has reasonable potential to add more production over reasonable time

take a step back to go 3 forward

DO IT
STOP WITH THE (*(yQ4TU87@!##$%!^ WIN NOW BSt
get better, then dominate

Completely disagree. Your theory excludes term. You may have convinced a message-board poster to agree with you, but I highly doubt that the GM of an NHL team that is building a young roster would agree to trade a 22 y/o RHD stud (that he can sign to a 6-8 year term) in exchange for an LD that is 5 years older and is only signed for 3 years.

They aren't equivalent assets, and the Jets aren't looking to get older.

Pass.

totally reasonable argument for the other side of the coin.
what you are overlooking is
dearth of LD prompts consideration of a righty for lefty swap for balance. I think that is very hard to ignore. It is fair if you want to say I'd rather deal Myers etc instead and get less. But if ya want McD, this is what he costs.

And true, long term 6 or so years down the road equilibrium swings the pay pendulum the other way, until McD's new long term contract.
But short term, this is great savings for Wini on McD's sweetheart deal

That is a huge equalizer plus you are not acknowledging.
4.7 for mcDonaugh is almost ridiculous
THAT's the flip side.

Shattenkirk for Kreider, Girardi and a 2017 2nd.

prefer to keep Kreider
we should be able to pay less to move Staal, and that will do it

Armstrong isnt stupid enough to take on girardi.

Kreider and a 2nd is arguably not enough to get shattenkirk alone (armstrong is probably looking for a player like kreider and at least a first pick, if not more) and throwing girardi into it when he has negative value makes the package worse.

Besides, armstrong would just re-sign shattenkirk at $7 mil before taking back a girardi/kreider package eating up $10 mil. Just makes no sense

largely agree except Shatty is worth K + 2nd +

Trading Kreider for a rental.

concur

First....James Wisniewski should be on a PTO with NYR not TBL! Hell, throw him a 1yr 1m deal, it's better than a PTO.

Dumba is still out there, though will cost a pound of flesh.
(My guess is the talk about Stepan moving was to Minny for Dumba deal. It only works if Gorto is able to bring in a replacement center, which he wasn't able to work out with Edmonton for RNH. Instead Minny signs Staal and Edmonton moves out Hall so the door is probably shut.)

Gryba could be a bottom pair signing with some PMD ability.

1 no, stop adding deadwood like wiz just cause we can
2 move a guy like Step for max return regardless of position

from your surplus, you can then strive on deals for balance

 

[Vatican Roulette]

Orlov?

Not right handed, but plays the right side, offensive defenseman.

Orlov for McIlrath?

Expanded:

Orlov, Vanecek

For

McIlrath, Fast

 

[Gump Hasek]

totally reasonable argument for the other side of the coin.
what you are overlooking is
dearth of LD prompts consideration of a righty for lefty swap for balance. I think that is very hard to ignore. It is fair if you want to say I'd rather deal Myers etc instead and get less. But if ya want McD, this is what he costs.

And true, long term 6 or so years down the road equilibrium swings the pay pendulum the other way, until McD's new long term contract.
But short term, this is great savings for Wini on McD's sweetheart deal

That is a huge equalizer plus you are not acknowledging.
4.7 for mcDonaugh is almost ridiculous
THAT's the flip side.

Your theoretical flip side does not in any way offset that the Jets aren't looking to get older, that their organizational plan was to build a young roster that grows together. The Jets aren't seeking any savings on Trouba and have tons of cap space available to get it done. While McD may indeed be signed to a cheapo deal, the Jets would surely rather keep the player that fits into their young roster build and would much prefer to willingly pay the higher ticket price for some added term... and keep their much younger d-man as a result. Best of luck looking elsewhere.

6-8 years of Trouba >> 3 years of McD.

Pass.

 

[jetsforever]

um yes

yield to reality
McD
McDonagh 4.7 x3 + Ranger 3rd in 2017, and NYR 4th in 2018
for
Trouba, [RFA = 0, but will result in savings for Wini since it is not paying Trouba 6 or more] + Jets 2nd in 2017, and Jets 3rd in 2018
cap is close enough

this deal was approved by Maukkis who underscored he would not recommend it to NY in a vacuum, and that moving Trouba, a 9OA, was not cut and dried either; however, his final conclusion remains, objectively, for Jets getting McD on that sweet contract, and the balance it provides adding needed LD to ample RD, it was worth it, even if it meant also losing on two separate picks exchanges; NY takes on more cap.

McD is ideal for Wini, which is RD heavy.
Rangers eliminate that McD can invoke protection clause soon, and this trade defeats that; acquire Trouba, who will cost more $ now but will be more cost effective later, but they get younger and also add in an area of need, unless he is flipped....

I am strongly against trading Trouba but I would do this as a Jets fan due to the LD/RD alignment.
Apparently we aren't allowed to mention McDonagh in this thread though

 

[LiveLongandProspal]

To NYR:
Dumba
Pominville

To MIN:
Nash
2nd round pick

We don't have a second rounder next year, but I would do that trade

 

[Savant]

We don't have a second rounder next year, but I would do that trade

No freaking way.

Pominville has a worse contract than Nash and is less useful. Rangers can get out from Nash and get a decent return from him in between the deadline and next summer pretty easily. Adding Dumba isn't worth the extra year of money Pominville is getting.

 

[bernmeister]

Your theoretical flip side does not in any way offset that the Jets aren't looking to get older, that their organizational plan was to build a young roster that grows together. The Jets aren't seeking any savings on Trouba and have tons of cap space available to get it done. While McD may indeed be signed to a cheapo deal, the Jets would surely rather keep the player that fits into their young roster build and would much prefer to willingly pay the higher ticket price for some added term... and keep their much younger d-man as a result. Best of luck looking elsewhere.

6-8 years of Trouba >> 3 years of McD.

Pass.

Thanks, your vote is cast. Your presentation of that argument is without error, except possibly it does not acknowledge you have first dibs on extending McD after 3 years, it is not guarantee you get no more than 3.

I am strongly against trading Trouba but I would do this as a Jets fan due to the LD/RD alignment.
Apparently we aren't allowed to mention McDonagh in this thread though

the topic is Play Making Right Hand Defenseman to Rangers
Trouba qualifies
if McD yields Trouba that's fair

And your vote is recorded,
let's get some more input from everyone before putting my specific prop in its own thread.....

 

[LordNeverLose]

No freaking way.

Pominville has a worse contract than Nash and is less useful. Rangers can get out from Nash and get a decent return from him in between the deadline and next summer pretty easily. Adding Dumba isn't worth the extra year of money Pominville is getting.

LOLOLOL "adding Dumba"

Dumba isn't the add, he's by far the most valuable asset in that deal. By a lot. Minny easily declines that and laughs as they hang up.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Orlov?

Not right handed, but plays the right side, offensive defenseman.

Orlov for McIlrath?

Expanded:

Orlov, Vanecek

For

McIlrath, Fast

We don't have the need for Vanecek. Orlov for McIlrath works though.

 

[hockeykicker]

Orlov?

Not right handed, but plays the right side, offensive defenseman.

Orlov for McIlrath?

Expanded:

Orlov, Vanecek

For

McIlrath, Fast

why does washington do this?

 

[voxel]

Gryba could be a bottom pair signing with some PMD ability.

Um, what? Guy handles the puck like a grenade. His style of play belongs in a pre-lockout era. You want K.Russell instead.