Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part VIII

[Tuna99]

GM’s always make their worst moves when they are at their most desperate - as a team the players have out the GM on notice they want to win NOW, the fans have out him on notice they want to win NOW, and the desperation comes from his owner and the GM saying they need a top 6 W and a top 4 D and striking out on both of those things.

Dorion is in the worst possibleposition because a game that is supposed to be about the players and coaches is now squarely on this shoulders. It’s not up for the players to perform, for the coach to perform - it’s on the GM to perform and he’ll take all the blame for any failure.

Stupid of Dorion to put himself in this position, but stupid is as stupid does

 

[Golden_Jet]

all true, he’s still an idiot for saying Chabot and the players told him they want to make the playoffs and his reply is “we’re looking to play meaningful games.”

What’s he supposed to say, We’re 3 years away be patient.

 

[aragorn]

Anyone else at least a little apprehensive on what Dorion calls help and who he'd trade the 7th for.

He's going to have to add to that 7th to get a really impactful established top 6 forward (Fiala, Keller). And I don't mean the guys you want off the team.
Start looking at lower end 2nd liners and higher end 3rd liners.

Guys like
Jason Dickenson
Connor Garland
Jonathan Marchessault
Sonny Milano
Andre Burakovsky


It will be interesting to see if Dorion can swing a decent deal for that pick or pick +
I am totally fine with hanging on to it but the pressure is on Dorion and he has left it until the players are starting to put additional pressure on him.,
The 2nd line at a bare bones minimum has to improve to be in the playoff conversation.

Dorion has a big problem, this team needs to improve around 30 pts to make the playoffs next yr (not impossible but very difficult) in one of if not the toughest division in the league, that's a tall order. If he trades the 7th OA for a quality player & it goes south as the Dadonov deal did than he's screwed especially if the team that picked 7th gets a really good player.

He's also screwed if the team doesn't improve from this past season regardless of what he does to try & improve it. Keeping the first & building for the future at the least gives him a chance to say it's getting better. This could be his last yr if the team is not a playoff contender & they will need to stay healthy & hope other teams have their own problems. I'm not sure he can survive another bad trade or signing, he really needs Giroux to sign here to save his ass, a good draft & at least one good deal. Can he pull it off?

 

[Golden_Jet]

GM’s always make their worst moves when they are at their most desperate - as a team the players have out the GM on notice they want to win NOW, the fans have out him on notice they want to win NOW, and the desperation comes from his owner and the GM saying they need a top 6 W and a top 4 D and striking out on both of those things.

Dorion is in the worst possibleposition because a game that is supposed to be about the players and coaches is now squarely on this shoulders. It’s not up for the players to perform, for the coach to perform - it’s on the GM to perform and he’ll take all the blame for any failure.

Stupid of Dorion to put himself in this position, but stupid is as stupid does

I agree with you on when GMs make their worst moves, which makes me nervous.

 

[Tuna99]

What’s he supposed to say, We’re 3 years away be patient.

He should not talk about that happened in the exit interviews. He’s totally put himself on the spot with very little cap space to make significant deals.

He should just say what we all know to be true - he’s got some Cap work to do to create flexibility in other areas and that’s it, don’t say anything else because it’s all there - players are going out the door and better players are coming in the door.

When your own players out you on notice and you come back with “we are looking to play significant games next year” it’s like saying you are getting a family vehicle and coming home with taxi coupons and a bicycle. It’s something but it’s nothing close to what you need

 

[Loach]

Dorion has a big problem, this team needs to improve around 30 pts to make the playoffs next yr (not impossible but very difficult) in one of if not the toughest division in the league, that's a tall order. If he trades the 7th OA for a quality player & it goes south as the Dadonov deal did than he's screwed especially if the team that picked 7th gets a really good player.

He's also screwed if the team doesn't improve from this past season regardless of what he does to try & improve it. Keeping the first & building for the future at the least gives him a chance to say it's getting better. This could be his last yr if the team is not a playoff contender & they will need to stay healthy & hope other teams have their own problems. I'm not sure he can survive another bad trade or signing, he really needs Giroux to sign here to save his ass, a good draft & at least one good deal. Can he pull it off?

If things start the same as the last couple years, he will fire DJ to buy time.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

GM’s always make their worst moves when they are at their most desperate - as a team the players have out the GM on notice they want to win NOW, the fans have out him on notice they want to win NOW, and the desperation comes from his owner and the GM saying they need a top 6 W and a top 4 D and striking out on both of those things.

Dorion is in the worst possibleposition because a game that is supposed to be about the players and coaches is now squarely on this shoulders. It’s not up for the players to perform, for the coach to perform - it’s on the GM to perform and he’ll take all the blame for any failure.

Stupid of Dorion to put himself in this position, but stupid is as stupid does

Dorion must have been desperate for years now.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

New bodies in management or coaching will not change the way things have turned in here. Nobody can survive this level of twisted scrutiny.

How exactly are people supposed to react? Dorion has made some pretty boneheaded moves for the last couple years, moves that nobody in charge of a budget team should make. What constitutes bad performance in your eyes? If Dorion was doing this shit as the Leafs or Habs GM this board would be having a field day every day.

 

[Ice-Tray]

How exactly are people supposed to react? Dorion has made some pretty boneheaded moves for the last couple years, moves that nobody in charge of a budget team should make. What constitutes bad performance in your eyes? If Dorion was doing this shit as the Leafs or Habs GM this board would be having a field day every day.

Well, the owner is gone, so now we can see how the franchise is run without all the micromanagement and financial strangulation.

It’s my an excuse to simply move the residual anger on to the next person.

As for what Dorion has done? I pay close attention to the core and it’s development, that’s all that is important, for now and the future. I couldn’t care less that fringe gambles work or not, and I’m happy when one becomes a real keeper.

The truth is we have added core players to the roster each year, and the team have been developing nicely a the speed of the core players that will ultimately take us all the way. We haven’t been cutting development corners, we’ve gone low and slow, despite howls from fans that are unhappy or impatient.

He has shared the basics of the plan since the start of the rebuild, and the scouts and coaches have been open with their strategies and sometimes their mistakes.

This next off season requires another step, as we need to add a player or two that matches where the core kids are at now. We’ll see what he can do, but if he is able to bring in what he said he wants to, then that’s a solid next step.

Fans seem to lose sight of the fact that every single team brings in guys on a hope and a prayer and they fail to meet expectations most of the time, that’s the gamble.

We’ve actually been pretty good with giving short term contracts, and being able to trade guys away for assets. Our worst two contracts are an overpaid young player, and a goalie who would be worth his deal if he could stay healthy.

The sky is absolutely not falling, and yet here we are…

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Well, the owner is gone, so now we can see how the franchise is run without all the micromanagement and financial strangulation.

It’s my an excuse to simply move the residual anger on to the next person.

We have 11 million in salary tied up to Murray and Hamonic as a budget team next year. Why?

There is no hindsight here. Murray had a .899 save percentage the year before Dorion signed him to that ridiculous contract and Hamonic is Hamonic.

Now we're told it's unreasonable to expect Dorion to add a 7-8 million dollar player in the offseason because of the market, fans, $25 ticket prices, yada yada. Well no shit we can't add someone after those brilliant signings. These are fundamental things any semi-competent GM avoids.

We can't just praise Dorion when something turns out right and scatter to find any excuse in sight when he does something bad. It's also easy to sum up his tenure in some step-by-step guide, but forget the actual moves he's been making and how they've made it harder to acquire players because his horrible cap-management.

Everyone knows how little I cared for Melnyk, but Dorion has just amplified his constraints on the team.

 

[slamigo]

The sky is absolutely not falling, and yet here we are…

I for one am not on the 'criticize everything, bemoan every move' bandwagon. However, the club needs to show that it has clear leadership and direction. That's why I feel strongly that it needs a proper President of Hockey Operations. I don't care who owns the team. Could be a board of shareholders for all I care. I just want a stabilizing leadership presence and this interim board isn't that. You're suggesting that Dorion is now free to deal without micromanagement or financial strangulation? How do we know that? I think that the club is very close to competing.

I would like to see it set up like this:

Board - deals with ownership, conduit of ownership's intentions to the team
President - corporate face of the team, in control of all hockey operations, hires/fires GM
GM - regular GM as seen in pretty much every other club

 

[Knave]

For some context on Dorion and his managing of this team.

Lets look at 2023-2024 estimated totals owed to players:

3 forwards under contract at $20.6M. 3 defensemen under contract at $13.4M. 2 goalies under contract at $11M.

$45M for
F - Tkachuk, Batherson, White
D - Chabot, Zaitsev, Sanderson
G - Murray, Forsberg

How much is Norris going to cost? Stutzle? Pinto if he's healthy and able to do well? How about Zub?

And remember we're a budget team. Lets say Norris and Stutzle command only 7M each for some reason. We're up to $60M and we have to sign 7 wingers, 3 defensemen. League minimum is really close to $1M. What's the budget of this team? $70M? $75M? Either way there is no room to add significant pieces.

Do we just let Formenton and Joseph walk this offseason to make room for Norris and Stutzle's salaries? And then bye Brown and Zub next offseason? Sign a bunch of guys to near league minimum and call it a day?

We're basically hoping that Dorion will suddenly stop being Dorion in years 7 and 8 of his time as GM. That he can convince the board for a significantly higher budget for the next couple of years. That he can thread the needle and find a way to shed salary to other teams without paying out the ass and make value signings. Dorion has shown us nothing to indicate he can do either of these things well.

 

[Sting]

Yeah, I'm sorry, but Dorion doesn't get to use the "we won't be a cap team unless we sell out" and use that as an excuse for not spending money when we've literally wasted 20.5 million of next year's cap on Murray, Zaitsev, Hamonic, Del Zotto and White. Let that sink in.

Nearly 1/3 of our cap is going to borderline NHL players. And we're complaining about not having money because the games aren't being sold out.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Yeah, I'm sorry, but Dorion doesn't get to use the "we won't be a cap team unless we sell out" and use that as an excuse for not spending money when we've literally wasted 20.5 million of next year's cap on Murray, Zaitsev, Hamonic, Del Zotto and White. Let that sink in. Nearly 1/3 of our cap is going to players that borderline shouldn't be in the NHL. And we're complaining about not having money because the games aren't being sold out.

It would have been cheaper to get rid of him by a lot. Now the Sens org will continue to pay for his mistakes. We'll see what he does this off season.

 

[Sweatred]

I for one am not on the 'criticize everything, bemoan every move' bandwagon. However, the club needs to show that it has clear leadership and direction. That's why I feel strongly that it needs a proper President of Hockey Operations. I don't care who owns the team. Could be a board of shareholders for all I care. I just want a stabilizing leadership presence and this interim board isn't that. You're suggesting that Dorion is now free to deal without micromanagement or financial strangulation? How do we know that? I think that the club is very close to competing.

I would like to see it set up like this:

Board - deals with ownership, conduit of ownership's intentions to the team
President - corporate face of the team, in control of all hockey operations, hires/fires GM
GM - regular GM as seen in pretty much every other club

What’s a good president cost ? $2 million ? Woudl you take $1-2 million out of the one ice budget to get someone good ? I don’t think we can get someone good to come here for $250K…

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

What’s a good president cost ? $2 million ? Woudl you take $1-2 million out of the one ice budget to get someone good ? I don’t think we can get someone good to come here for $250K…

would you pay 2 million for a president that could avoid multi million dollar mistakes from the GM

 

[HSF]

What’s a good president cost ? $2 million ? Woudl you take $1-2 million out of the one ice budget to get someone good ? I don’t think we can get someone good to come here for $250K…

Of course we can afford it. We have 2mill in MDZ in the AHL. This is about how the organization has been run.

We have all been part of poorly run businesses before. Usually its not because of how much money a business has but more so how its being wasted on the wrong people and egos

 

[Ice-Tray]

We have 11 million in salary tied up to Murray and Hamonic as a budget team next year. Why?

There is no hindsight here. Murray had a .899 save percentage the year before Dorion signed him to that ridiculous contract and Hamonic is Hamonic.

Now we're told it's unreasonable to expect Dorion to add a 7-8 million dollar player in the offseason because of the market, fans, $25 ticket prices, yada yada. Well no shit we can't add someone after those brilliant signings. These are fundamental things any semi-competent GM avoids.

We can't just praise Dorion when something turns out right and scatter to find any excuse in sight when he does something bad. It's also easy to sum up his tenure in some step-by-step guide, but forget the actual moves he's been making and how they've made it harder to acquire players because his horrible cap-management.

Everyone knows how little I cared for Melnyk, but Dorion has just amplified his constraints on the team.

Hamonic is a problem now? He’s actually played pretty well for us and is well worth the price paid for him and his contract next year. This seems like a manufactured issue.

Murray is a shame, mostly due to injuries now. His contract also isn’t an issue at the moment because we aren’t close to being a cap team. We’ll buy him out, or roll with him until injuries sideline him.

Pretty sure Dorion said he was looking to add salary this off season so I’ not sure where you’re getting that it’s an unreasonable expectation. It certainly isn’t coming from the GM so why mention it?

No one in here would accuse you, or virtually anyone else in here of praising Dorion, not sure where that idea came from. He certainly isn’t getting too much praise in here by any stretch no matter what he says or does.

We haven’t seen cap management from this team in a very long time, because we haven’t been anywhere near the cap.

No one in here was happy with the previous ownership.

I’m fine with your opinions being out there in the universe, I’m not looking to change them.

 

[HSF]

New bodies in management or coaching will not change the way things have turned in here. Nobody can survive this level of twisted scrutiny.

awwww then they aren't fit for the job

 

[Senator Stanley]

How does Jim Clark still have a job here? He's been the Director of Pro Scouting since 2014-15.

Jim Clark at eliteprospects.com

Eliteprospects.com staff profile of Jim Clark, 1954-03-16 Summerside, PE, CAN Canada.

www.eliteprospects.com

 

[Ice-Tray]

awwww then they aren't fit for the job

Hahaha! If only fitness for a job actually mattered.

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

I for one am not on the 'criticize everything, bemoan every move' bandwagon. However, the club needs to show that it has clear leadership and direction. That's why I feel strongly that it needs a proper President of Hockey Operations. I don't care who owns the team. Could be a board of shareholders for all I care. I just want a stabilizing leadership presence and this interim board isn't that. You're suggesting that Dorion is now free to deal without micromanagement or financial strangulation? How do we know that? I think that the club is very close to competing.

I would like to see it set up like this:

Board - deals with ownership, conduit of ownership's intentions to the team
President - corporate face of the team, in control of all hockey operations, hires/fires GM
GM - regular GM as seen in pretty much every other club

This is good.

Board. Anyone wanting to buy into the club - their shares give the number of votes.
President needs to happen yesterday.
GM - could be delayed another year.... if they get PD some REAL help. Otherwise there is a risk of wrecking the rebuild. I think if any GM comes in it has to be someone very well connected and someone with sway in the league that can get some talent to come to the city.

 

[Sweatred]

Of course we can afford it. We have 2mill in MDZ in the AHL. This is about how the organization has been run.

We have all been part of poorly run businesses before. Usually its not because of how much money a business has but more so how its being wasted on the wrong people and egos

Possible - it hard to ask the org to be perfect on pro acquisitions when we struggle to draw players here and a potential overpay is often neutralized in taxes .

We hated the Hamonic trade but try to find 2-3 potential RD that would choose to come here this off season who are better.

Same for MDZ … we want that magical vet D that will choose to come here. when players are coming here they demand more years or salary like MDZ, Burrows etc. we got first hand knowledge that the only way Burrows would choose to come here is if we bribed him with an extra year. We ended up buying him out so he basically took a $2 million cheque to come here.

In the end they look like
Bad deals compared to what Tampa or NYR or whoever has to handout to get guys into their markets .

 

[Gil Gunderson]

Murray is a shame, mostly due to injuries now. His contract also isn’t an issue at the moment because we aren’t close to being a cap team. We’ll buy him out, or roll with him until injuries sideline him.

We have an internal cap, which makes his contract worse for us than it would be for any other team. It literally means we're less likely to get a significant player in the offseason. This is the point I'm trying to make here.

It wasn’t some gamble gone wrong due to bad luck either. Goalies that post a .899 save percentage don’t get rewarded with a monster contract immediately after.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Possible - it hard to ask the org to be perfect on pro acquisitions when we struggle to draw players here and a potential overpay is often neutralized in taxes .

We hated the Hamonic trade but try to find 2-3 potential RD that would choose to come here this off season who are better.

Same for MDZ … we want that magical vet D that will choose to come here. when players are coming here they demand more years or salary like MDZ, Burrows etc. we got first hand knowledge that the only way Burrows would choose to come here is if we bribed him with an extra year. We ended up buying him out so he basically took a $2 million cheque to come here.

In the end they look like
Bad deals compared to what Tampa or NYR or whoever has to handout to get guys into their markets .

lol in the end they look like bad deals because Dorion chronically overpays for replacement level players. has nothing to do with Tampa or NYR.

and players don't want to come here because they want to win but know that with a guy like Dorion in charge its not happening.

If we have good GM , good front office, good team. players will want to come. if your team is in the basementt for 5+ years no one will want to come.