Management GM Pierre Dorion/Front Office Thread - Part VIII

[Masked]

Calgary isn't trading Tkachuk before the trade deadline.

I wasn't aware that we were only discussing moves that would take place before the trade deadline.

Assen na yo!

 

[DaveMatthew]

I wasn't aware that we were only discussing moves that would take place before the trade deadline.

Assen na yo!

My comment was based on Dorion saying that he wanted most of next year's team to be together after the deadline, since he thought continuity has been a problem (it takes new players too long to adjust).

With that said, I think it's highly unlikely that Calgary trades Tkachuk at all.

 

[coladin]

Gambrell for $1 million x 1-2 or White for $5.25 x 3 for 4C ?

White most likley ends up on Stutzle's wing

 

[DaveMatthew]

White most likley ends up on Stutzle's wing

Or Pinto.

I think you could see any combination of:

Tkachuk - Norris -Batherson
Formenton - Stützle - Pinto
Paul (if signed) - White - Brown

Or

Tkachuk - Norris -Batherson
Formenton - Stützle - White
Paul (if signed) - Pinto - Brown

Or

Tkachuk - Norris - Batherson
Formenton - Stützle - Brown
Paul (if signed) - Pinto - White

I remember Pinto played RW at the WJC, and was great.

As we've seen this year with injuries, center depth is critical. Having 5 players in your top 9 capable of playing there would be great. If we go out and get a big fish this summer (Fiala, Giroux, etc), I could see us buying White out. But I think that's super unlikely, so there's no reason to get rid of him.

 

[aragorn]

If PD wants most of the team to be in place before the TDL than who are we talking about & how many spots are we looking at that could possibly be filled? This is my interpretation of how it could go.

The Forwards:
IMO there are probably ten spots at forward with players they already have that can fill them. They may not be where everyone thinks they should be, but these are the 10 guys IMO unless one or two are traded that should have a spot locked after training camp. That leaves two spots & they have some players who could probably fill them in Sokolov, Crookshank, & Kastelic or Gambrell, Gaudette & Ennis if any of them are retained.

While most want an upgrade at 2nd line RW I'm not sure they will spend the assets to upgrade the 2nd line RW spot when they already have Pinto who has won the 2nd line C spot twice. Once at the end of last season when he first arrived & at the beginning of this season during training camp, he did it again. I really think this is the only question whether they will bring in a scoring 2nd line RW or let Pinto or even C. Brown play on that line. It didn't work out so well when they brought in Dadonov, will they take the risk again & spend valuable assets given how much this owner has lost due to Covid?

Tkachuk - Norris - Batherson
Formenton - Stutzle - Pinto
Paul - White - C. Brown
Sokolov - Kastelic - Watson/Ennis maybe

Goaltending:
Forsberg is a UFA & Gustavsson I believe has a one way contract for next season. That pretty much sums it up for me, it's perfectly reasonable to assume because of this Gustavsson becomes the backup for next season & Murray the starter & Forsberg traded by the TDL.

Murray - Gustavsson/Sogaard

The Defence:
There are 6-7 spots available for next yr & Chabot, Holden & Zub should take 3 of them. Zaitsev unless traded or bought out should most likely also get one of those D spots to start next yr. DJ has said that Brannstrom has arrived & he has played well so unless he is traded, I'll give him a spot for next yr too. Most believe that Sanderson will most likely play in Ottawa next yr rather than Belleville so when he arrives he also gets a spot. That's all six spots taken with MDZ as the 7th D unless he is traded or bought out & Thomson as the 1st callup.

Chabot - Brannstrom
Holden - Zub
Sanderson - Zaitsev/MDZ

 

[Sweatred]

White most likley ends up on Stutzle's wing

but Brown IS better than White … Soko may be better soon too. Is that a good idea ?

White was dreadful protecting Stutzle last season (24 year old with a 18-19 year old .. they hardly connected on more than a few points all season. Basically .. every point Jimmy has came when he wasn’t playing with White.. and you want to put them back together ?

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Tkachuk - Norris - Batherson
Formenton - Stützle - Brown
Paul (if signed) - Pinto - White

This is what I see happening too. I think we are adding a top 6 or top 9 player for sure, though. Whether it's Kuzmenko or Giroux/Fiala/Hertl/Forsberg or both. If we don't, then that top 9 is what I see us deploying next year.

 

[BankStreetParade]

but Brown IS better than White … Soko may be better soon too. Is that a good idea ?

White was dreadful protecting Stutzle last season (24 year old with a 18-19 year old .. they hardly connected on more than a few points all season. Basically .. every point Jimmy has came when he wasn’t playing with White.. and you want to put them back together ?

Not even close lol.

 

[Sweatred]

Not even close lol.

I think you missed the “soon too” part. The target is a 4C who can’t PK or win a face off or 3-4 soft RW… I’ll take those odds.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I'd really really hope he's learned to at least top 5 or top 10 protect the pick.

Learned? Last time we traded a first it was lottery protected.

 

[Sens Vader]

I think our top 9 is just missing one piece

Tkachuk Norris Batherson
Formenton Stützle XXX
Paul Pinto Brown

Paul can move to 4C when Grieg or Sokolov makes the jump

 

[BankStreetParade]

I think you missed the “soon too” part. The target is a 4C who can’t PK or win a face off or 3-4 soft RW… I’ll take those odds.

Ah so you make a generally vague statement and then when anything falls into the parameters of your vague statement you get to claim you were right?

So we deconstruct that statement starting with "may" which gives you an out if Sokolov never amounts to anything at the NHL level. Then you pile the "soon too" on top of it to give yourself an unreasonably long window of opportunity where Sokolov can fit the statement you're making. What's soon in this case? A few months? A year? 2 years? Within 3 years?

Then you'll continue arguing as if this is a declarative statement rather than the wishy-washy maybe he will maybe he won't bet hedging that it is.

 

[Boud]

Ah so you make a generally vague statement and then when anything falls into the parameters of your vague statement you get to claim you were right?

So we deconstruct that statement starting with "may" which gives you an out if Sokolov never amounts to anything at the NHL level. Then you pile the "soon too" on top of it to give yourself an unreasonably long window of opportunity where Sokolov can fit the statement you're making. What's soon in this case? A few months? A year? 2 years? Within 3 years?

Then you'll continue arguing as if this is a declarative statement rather than the wishy-washy maybe he will maybe he won't bet hedging that it is.

Jeez man do you even enjoy posting here lol I feel like all I see from you is complaining about other posters.

 

[Sweatred]

Ah so you make a generally vague statement and then when anything falls into the parameters of your vague statement you get to claim you were right?

So we deconstruct that statement starting with "may" which gives you an out if Sokolov never amounts to anything at the NHL level. Then you pile the "soon too" on top of it to give yourself an unreasonably long window of opportunity where Sokolov can fit the statement you're making. What's soon in this case? A few months? A year? 2 years? Within 3 years?

Then you'll continue arguing as if this is a declarative statement rather than the wishy-washy maybe he will maybe he won't bet hedging that it is.

I know what the word “may” means — it’s a word I assume “many” people would use with “some ” AHL prospects. I have enough confidence to suggest I think he will work his way into the lineup over the next 16 months.

I like Soko and I “think” he plays in our top 9.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Jeez man do you even enjoy posting here lol I feel like all I see from you is complaining about other posters.

Holding people accountable to the things they say is "complaining about other posters"? Cool point of view. Or is this post technically considered complaining about someone complaining? I just wanna make sure I meet your rigorous quality assurance for what people can and can't write about.

 

[Boud]

Holding people accountable to the things they say is "complaining about other posters"? Cool point of view. Or is this post technically considered complaining about someone complaining? I just wanna make sure I meet your rigorous quality assurance for what people can and can't write about.

COVID affected all of us that's for sure. Take care of yourself - cheers.

 

[BankStreetParade]

I know what the word “may” means — it’s a word I assume “many” people would use with “some ” AHL prospects. I have enough confidence to suggest I think he will work his way into the lineup over the next 16 months.

I like Soko and I “think” he plays in our top 9.

So you'd buy out White today in the hopes that in about 16 months Sokolov might be ready to take his spot on the roster? Or they could simply let White play and try to boost his value (which you would say is zero right now, so nothing to lose since Soko is still 16 months away by your own estimations) and then look to move him or slot him somewhere in the lineup. I get that you don't like the guy but your ideas on what to do with him lack any coherence or semblance of a real plan.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

So you'd buy out White today in the hopes that in about 16 months Sokolov might be ready to take his spot on the roster? Or they could simply let White play and try to boost his value (which you would say is zero right now, so nothing to lose since Soko is still 16 months away by your own estimations) and then look to move him or slot him somewhere in the lineup. I get that you don't like the guy but your ideas on what to do with him lack any coherence or semblance of a real plan.

Aren't there some buyout timelines in play? I thought I saw that mentioned that this summer is a big one if they are to cut bait and buy him out for almost nothing as opposed to the years that follow, but I could be misremembering.

That poster obviously hates White, but there's an argument of cutting your losses and not just hoping he can make the money worth it to the Senators as opposed to what else they could use it for.

 

[BankStreetParade]

COVID affected all of us that's for sure. Take care of yourself - cheers.

Well thanks for chiming in on the topic I was discussing! Very helpful tangent to the discussion

 

[BankStreetParade]

Aren't there some buyout timelines in play? I thought I saw that mentioned that this summer is a big one if they are to cut bait and buy him out for almost nothing as opposed to the years that follow, but I could be misremembering.

That poster obviously hates White, but there's an argument of cutting your losses and not just hoping he can make the money worth it to the Senators as opposed to what else they could use it for.

There definitely are buyout timelines in play but it's honestly so overblown. The difference between buying him out this offseason vs. the one after adds about $2 million to the total buyout. Is that a lot of money in NHL terms? Not really. You could make the argument that Melnyk would rather save that $2 million but I'm wagering they would rather roll the dice and give him a full year to show where he's at rather than buy him out and watch him go somewhere else and potentially thrive. At the cost of $2 million extra, is it worth the potential negativity over a player assessment gone wrong? He's only 25, he's not doing growing his game and improving. I mean shit, he hasn't even played yet this year.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

There definitely are buyout timelines in play but it's honestly so overblown. The difference between buying him out this offseason vs. the one after adds about $2 million to the total buyout. Is that a lot of money in NHL terms? Not really. You could make the argument that Melnyk would rather save that $2 million but I'm wagering they would rather roll the dice and give him a full year to show where he's at rather than buy him out and watch him go somewhere else and potentially thrive. At the cost of $2 million extra, is it worth the potential negativity over a player assessment gone wrong? He's only 25, he's not doing growing his game and improving. I mean shit, he hasn't even played yet this year.

That seems pretty reasonable. Good argument to give him another year.

 

[DrEasy]

Aren't there some buyout timelines in play? I thought I saw that mentioned that this summer is a big one if they are to cut bait and buy him out for almost nothing as opposed to the years that follow, but I could be misremembering.

From Buyout FAQ - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

"Teams are permitted to buyout a players contract to obtain a reduced salary cap hit over a period of twice the remaining length of the contract. The buyout amount is a function of the players age at the time of the buyout, and are as follows:

• 1/3 of the remaining contract value, if the player is younger than 26 at the time of the buyout
• 2/3 of the remaining contract value, if the player is 26 or older at the time of the buyout"

 

[God Says No]

I think our top 9 is just missing one piece

Tkachuk Norris Batherson
Formenton Stützle XXX
Paul Pinto Brown

Paul can move to 4C when Grieg or Sokolov makes the jump

I don't like Formenton on the second line. He's a third liner right now. That also pushes Paul to the 4th line where he belongs. That means we need 2 top 6 wingers. I've been saying that for a while.

 

[DrEasy]

I don't like Formenton on the second line. He's a third liner right now. That also pushes Paul to the 4th line where he belongs. That means we need 2 top 6 wingers. I've been saying that for a while.

Yes, this is what ambitious teams should strive for. As we've seen time and time again (this year being exhibit A), injuries WILL happen, and so odds are that Formenton and Paul would still end up playing plenty of games on the 2nd and 3rd line respectively anyway, assuming they're not the ones getting injured.

If you start the season already with Formenton on the 2nd line and Paul on the 3rd, odds are that they will play plenty of games respectively on the 1st and 2nd lines respectively. Then you're not competitive anymore.

Depth matters.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I don't like Formenton on the second line. He's a third liner right now. That also pushes Paul to the 4th line where he belongs. That means we need 2 top 6 wingers. I've been saying that for a while.

It depends, really. If we get an elite top liner, then, naturally, we can only afford to put Formenton on that wing position, or someone who is not bonafide top 6, but top 6 capable. Just like the way Killorn is in TB's top 6.

If we don't have an elite winger for Stutzle, then I agree, we would definitely need another top 6 for a more balanced attack if we want to compete against high octane teams.

So.. what's missing is:

Legit top line winger. OR:

Two top 6ers/1 top 6 and 1 middle 6.

Example:

Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson
Formenton-Stutzle-Giroux/Forsberg/Hertl
Paul-Pinto-Brown

vs

Tkachuk-Norris-Batherson
Formenton-Stutzle-Smith
Nichushkin/Kuzmenko/Rakell-Pinto-Brown