Speculation: Glen Sather ready to retire?

[Bluenote13]

This thread is depressing

I'm as negative as any, but according to some of you the team never has a chance in hell of winning anything, every move we make is horrible, the front office is clueless, etc.

I've been following this organization closely for 30 plus years. I've seen alot of this before. It's not easy to say 'hey, maybe theyll get it right this time' when most of the times I've seen the team fail for the exact same incompetence I see today.

 

[True Blue]

I'm as negative as any, but according to some of you the team never has a chance in hell of winning anything, every move we make is horrible, the front office is clueless, etc.

The front office has shown themselves to be fairly incompetent.

What has shown you that they should be looked upon as favorites to win anything?

Over 70 years, and largely the same story.

 

[haveandare]

Is that really the standard that for a player that you gave up half your core and picks for, should be held to? That a $7.8 player was two points behind Derek Stepan? For what he is paid and what was given up for him, he should be one of the very best in the league.

What have his goal totals for the Rangers been? And yes, if all he does is score 30 goals, then at $7.8 he is grossly overpaid.

Sorry, but St. Louis does not get the benefit of a fittin gin period. At his price, and considering that lots of folks here consider him to be one of the very best in the league, he needs to make an instant impact. How has he benefitted this team so far?

Tell me about Nash's contributions. What have they been? And also tell me how MSL has mattered so far. The only way that the MSL trade is a winner is if they win the Cup.

Since he took over, how would you describe his personnel moves? What has been the typical result for the team on average during Sather's tenure?

"Half your core" is ridiculous. And yes, if two points behind Stepan means two points away from being a PPG player. Not many players score 30 goals a year. Nash will likely fall just short this year having missed about 20 games.

Who's saying MSL should get the benefit of the doubt period? I'm just asking why we're complaining about something that hasn't happened, and won't happen for at least another year+ How has he benefitted the team so far? It hasn't even been 10 games. You can hold him to whatever absurd standards you want, where he should come in and score like a monster right out of the gate, but that's just your opinion. Even though it's almost never thought of this way on HFNYR, a negative opinion isn't necessarily worth more than a positive one solely because it's negative.

The MSL trade is a winner to me if the team remains competitive and the young players develop on a team that has a prayer, and provides them a conducive situation to grow as a player in. I guess that doesn't matter to anybody. We've all seen how well bringing kids up to horrible teams has gone in Edmonton and Florida and on the Island and we've all seen how well bringing kids up to good teams has gone in La, Stl, Boston, Chicago, etc. It's almost as if prospects are more likely to turn into good players when they're on good teams surrounded by other good players. But, no, let's let Kreider play with some hacks so that NYR can get a high pick and then we can all whine about Kreider and that player picked not turning out to be world beaters as they tried to grow up on a team without talent around them.

My main question is just why are we complaining about stuff that might happen more than a year from now? Is this board already not completely saturated with complaints about current times, the immediate past and the immediate future? Sure, there are things to complain about with good reason, but it's almost all anybody does in any thread here. If there's nothing bad to say, nobody says anything. Look at any PGT after a win. Silence. On top of that, now we're whining about the 2015 draft? Is that not absolutely ridiculous to anybody else?

 

[haveandare]

Actually, the trades to sacrifice all those draft picks did happen already.



So you're jumping a year ahead of time and counting on things that haven't even happened yet.

Actually, you're talking about something more than a year away, so nothing is set in stone. You can actually trade for picks too. Crazy.

No, I'm arguing in favor of not jumping to definite conclusions about what is going to happen in mid 2015, today at the start of 2014. Good or bad. This place is an echo chamber of whining. At least the stuff about current times is justified. On top of that now, we're complaining about what might be in the 2015 draft?

And here I wondered what would happen when we ran out of things to complain about. Here's the answer, I guess. We'll complain about things over a year away as if they've already happened.

 

[True Blue]

"Half your core" is ridiculous. And yes, if two points behind Stepan means two points away from being a PPG player.

The standard for Nash should be higher than Stepan, don't you think?

Not many players score 30 goals a year.

When taking up $7.8m of cap space, he had better.

'm just asking why we're complaining about something that hasn't happened, and won't happen for at least another year+

He was acquired to push a bubble team over the top. Has he done that?

How has he benefitted the team so far? It hasn't even been 10 games.

Sorry, but with what was traded for him and for the reasons that he was to be acquired, he had better make an instant impact.

The MSL trade is a winner to me if the team remains competitive and the young players develop on a team that has a prayer, and provides them a conducive situation to grow as a player in.

The Rangers gave up their 29 year old Captain, and at least a 1st and second rounder. If that deal does not get them over the top, how can it be a winner? And younger players developing has absolutely nothing to do with the trade. If Carl Hagellin develops into a 2nd line player in several years, you are going to say that the MSL trade was a success?

We've all seen how well bringing kids up to horrible teams has gone in Edmonton and Florida and on the Island and we've all seen how well bringing kids up to good teams has gone in La, Stl, Boston, Chicago, etc.

What does any of this have to do with the St. Louis trade?

My main question is just why are we complaining about stuff that might happen more than a year from now?

because the move was made and put the team in a win-NOW mode. The trade is not getting the Rangers any closer to a playoff spot. And precious assets were given up when there was no need to give them up.

On top of that, now we're whining about the 2015 draft? Is that not absolutely ridiculous to anybody else?

People are complaining about the squandering of assets. And poor judgement. If that offends you, then don't read it.

 

[Tawnos]

Actually, you're talking about something more than a year away, so nothing is set in stone. You can actually trade for picks too. Crazy.

No, I'm arguing in favor of not jumping to definite conclusions about what is going to happen in mid 2015, today at the start of 2014. Good or bad. This place is an echo chamber of whining. At least the stuff about current times is justified. On top of that now, we're complaining about what might be in the 2015 draft?

And here I wondered what would happen when we ran out of things to complain about. Here's the answer, I guess. We'll complain about things over a year away as if they've already happened.

While I agree that this place is somewhat of an echo chamber, it's worth pointing out that Sather has made a trade for a first round pick exactly once in his tenure here, and that was during a fire sale. If he's still here, I would say that the chances are exceedingly slim that we see it happen.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Actually, you're talking about something more than a year away, so nothing is set in stone. You can actually trade for picks too. Crazy.

What would be crazy would be to go into 'win-now' mode and sacrifice the future, and then one year later make an about-face and trade away your current assets for a first round draft pick. Then again, this is Sather we're talking about here - if he had a long-term plan we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.

And here I wondered what would happen when we ran out of things to complain about. Here's the answer, I guess. We'll complain about things over a year away as if they've already happened.

The trade of the first round draft pick in what is widely predicted to be a very strong and deep draft class next year DID already happen.

 

[haveandare]

What would be crazy would be to go into 'win-now' mode and sacrifice the future, and then one year later make an about-face and trade away your current assets for a first round draft pick. Then again, this is Sather we're talking about here - if he had a long-term plan we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.



The trade of the first round draft pick in what is widely predicted to be a very strong and deep draft class next year DID already happen.

Teams don't do this blow it all for one year thing. Ever. No team. That is a caricature of the level of strategy that it actually takes to try to run a franchise and win a championship. Teams don't trade their entire future, they'll trade a first and a prospect maybe at most to get a good piece for a cup run. And the Rangers didn't trade the entire future either. There shouldn't be binary choice between "future" and "present" - the best decision should be made based on the circumstances that it arises in, with the hopes of being good now and being good down the road. If you try to do just one, you'll end up doing neither.

Regardless of how we might assume Sather is thinking, this team isn't "winning now" short of a literally historic turn around. Nash is already here. MSL is already here. Hank is locked up. McD is locked up. Girardi is locked up. You think making an "about face" and trying to recoup some picks when possible is a bad idea? What's the alternative? Sell even more assets which don't exist for another huge contract player who there is literally no room for? The way forward at this point, even if you're thinking like Sather, is to keep the guys who are here and are "big pieces," try to add younger players on ELC or early contracts around them, and trade whatever assets become available as those new players move in. That is pretty much the only alternative aside from selling these star players, which I think we all know is not what Sather is going to do.

And again, for the third time, the 2015 draft is insanely far away. You're complaining about how you think something more than a year away from now might go. I agree that trading that pick was unfortunate, but I'm not about to complain about the way the draft after this draft might turn out. At that rate, let's all get angry about Richards not being bought out, Sather living to be 110 and never stepping down, and whatever other situations might have a chance of happening in the future.

 

[Riverdale]

Sather living to be 110 and never stepping down

Seems pretty likely if you ask me

 

[haveandare]

The standard for Nash should be higher than Stepan, don't you think?

When taking up $7.8m of cap space, he had better.

He was acquired to push a bubble team over the top. Has he done that?

Sorry, but with what was traded for him and for the reasons that he was to be acquired, he had better make an instant impact.

The Rangers gave up their 29 year old Captain, and at least a 1st and second rounder. If that deal does not get them over the top, how can it be a winner? And younger players developing has absolutely nothing to do with the trade. If Carl Hagellin develops into a 2nd line player in several years, you are going to say that the MSL trade was a success?

What does any of this have to do with the St. Louis trade?

because the move was made and put the team in a win-NOW mode. The trade is not getting the Rangers any closer to a playoff spot. And precious assets were given up when there was no need to give them up.

People are complaining about the squandering of assets. And poor judgement. If that offends you, then don't read it.

- The standards for Nash should be that he play like a star player and score nearly at a PPG pace. When Stepan is doing that, and Nash is doing that as well, then no, Nash shouldn't be held to a higher standard.

- Nash hasn't put a bubble team over, because his coming coincided with that bubble team turning over about half of its forwards. The "bubble team" wasn't even here anymore when Nash got here.

- You saying MSL has to make an immediate impact does't mean he has to, and it definitely doesn't mean that he won't get comfortable with time simply because he didn't make your arbitrary deadline for when he should be performing at his highest level.

- You're defining what can make the MSL trade a success based on your opinion. If they don't win a cup, it's a waste. I disagree. If MSL can provide leadership to the young players, can score a lot of points for the next year, and can get solid ice time with one or two of the young guys consistently, I think they can learn from him, and maybe even accelerate their growth by playing with him. If that happens, it's worth it to me. Callahan was a tiny asset. I can't believe that anyone can possibly question that anymore. "Trading our 29 year old captain" conveniently leaves out that he was a pending ufa demanding to be horribly overpaid at the end of a disappointing, injury-laden season.

- Win-now mode isn't nearly the far end of the spectrum of strategy that people around here think it is. No team completely sacrifices the future for now, and the Rangers haven't either. They've traded too many picks, some in completely absurd trades (Clowe), and now they've go to try to get them back with keeping the stars that they sacrificed them for. There's never a "need" to give up assets. The Rangers traded picks for star players who were offered at all, or offered for lower prices than they otherwise would be, because they had NTCs and wanted to go to NY. I say keep those guys, let the rookies come up as they get ready, and trade away whoever's spots the rookies take for picks. I don't see any other way ahead.

I'll read what I want and comment on what I want. The Rangers seem to offend a lot of people here, and yet those people watch them constantly and talk about how much they suck. I could say the same to you - if it offends you, don't watch - but you're free to do as you please, just as I am.

 

[AHB*]

Lol @ anyone arguing for Nash.

"He'll come close to 30 this year."

Who cares, he's not paid to put up 20+ goals. He's paid to put up 40+.

He also stinks to high heaven in any other aspect of the game this year. You realize he's the eighth highest cap hit in the NHL, right?

That's 8. 7, yes, only 7 players are ahead of him.

Ovechkin
Malkin
Crosby
Perry
E. Staal
Getzlaf
Shea Weber

Sorry that my expectations are better then, well, he'll come close to 30 this year.

Should have kept Anisimov, Dubi and the 1st.

At least when they weren't scoring, they weren't just gliding either.

O yea, and just to put things in perspective, outside of that "hot" 11 game stretch he had, he has a whopping 11 goals in 42 games.

Before last night, it was 9, yes, 9 in 41.

That's an 18 goal pace for most of the season. Absolutely and utterly unacceptable for someone getting paid that much.

How anyone can defend this schlep, after we shipped off two fantastic, home-grown pieces for him is beyond me.

 

[frankthefrowner]

Be careful what you wish for folks.

I dont love Sather but he's a strong personality that has kept our Pejorative Slured owner from sticking his nose in our business. The concern of course would be and should be whose next? Gorton? Would Gorton have enough pull to tell Jim Dolan that he doesnt want to acquire a 38 year Datsyuk or some garbage in the future??

Im ok with a change sometimes the devil you know is far better then the devil you dont.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Be careful what you wish for folks.

I dont love Sather but he's a strong personality that has kept our Pejorative Slured owner from sticking his nose in our business. The concern of course would be and should be whose next? Gorton? Would Gorton have enough pull to tell Jim Dolan that he doesnt want to acquire a 38 year Datsyuk or some garbage in the future??

Im ok with a change sometimes the devil you know is far better then the devil you dont.

Thats a point that the Knicks have to worry about much more.

I dont get the feeling that Dolan even wants to meddle in Rangers affairs in any way.

 

[frankthefrowner]

Thats a point that the Knicks have to worry about much more.

I dont get the feeling that Dolan even wants to meddle in Rangers affairs in any way.

You really dont know as Glen Sather had enough clout to sell Jimmy on his ideas.. The Same way Jackson will basically whip his 7 footer out and slap jimmy across the face with it if he interefers. Will Gorton or whoever is next have that ability? I have my doubts. There is also a very strong possibility that messier could swoop in and steal that gig.

 

[OverTheCap]

Jim Dolan approaches his two franchises very differently. He can't keep his meddling hands off the Knicks while he generally lets the Rangers GM do his own thing with little to no accountability. Unfortunately, neither of these extremes has been successful. A measured middle ground is needed.

 

[AHB*]

Be careful what you wish for folks.

I dont love Sather but he's a strong personality that has kept our Pejorative Slured owner from sticking his nose in our business. The concern of course would be and should be whose next? Gorton? Would Gorton have enough pull to tell Jim Dolan that he doesnt want to acquire a 38 year Datsyuk or some garbage in the future??

Im ok with a change sometimes the devil you know is far better then the devil you dont.

There are two options, both of which, I see better then where we have been for the last 8-9 years.

1) We get a competent GM who builds a good franchise through savvy trades, smart FA signings and good home grown development.

2) We utterly fail with Dolan or another GM involved, get a top draft pick for a year or two and hopefully rebuild like an actual team, instead of doing all this middling bs.

Some people are fine with first round exits year after year, I'm not one of them. And I'll take anything other then Sather, who at this point, I am absolutely 110% convinced, he will never win a cup here. He is a dreadful GM who makes awful moves and steps in **** every one in a while.

You realize this guy was heavily responsible for the dark years right?

So he's created a team that was absolutely awful for a bunch of years, then moved that team to absolutely mediocre for the next handful.

Seriously, what could be worse then this, outside of John Spano?

 

[frankthefrowner]

There are two options, both of which, I see better then where we have been for the last 8-9 years.

1) We get a competent GM who builds a good franchise through savvy trades, smart FA signings and good home grown development.

2) We utterly fail with Dolan or another GM involved, get a top draft pick for a year or two and hopefully rebuild like an actual team, instead of doing all this middling bs.

Some people are fine with first round exits year after year, I'm not one of them. And I'll take anything other then Sather, who at this point, I am absolutely 110% convinced, he will never win a cup here. He is a dreadful GM who makes awful moves and steps in **** every one in a while.

You realize this guy was heavily responsible for the dark years right?

So he's created a team that was absolutely awful for a bunch of years, then moved that team to absolutely mediocre for the next handful.

Seriously, what could be worse then this, outside of John Spano?

To be fair to glen Sather, he got here in 2000 we were already pretty well entrenched in the dark years. He certainly didnt help. But you can lay the blame on many people for pretty much having no farm system when he got here.

Also while we love to second guess his free agent signings alot of us were applauding him when he made them. The only one I recall that got universally hated was Redden...

But Gomez and Drury were the top free agent centers in that FA class and we were all frothing at the mouth about getting BOTH! Holik was brought in to be an over priced checking line center and he might have done that job well if we actually had him do that job. He wound centering Lindros and Pavel Bure on the top line. We all loved getting Brad Richards and of course he comes and loses 50 percent of his effectiveness like every other free agent on the planet. We are all a bunch of second guessers here but if you look back at how we reacted to the deals at the time. We generally are for them.

 

[Beacon]

Slats will retire as soon as it will be time to rebuild again. He'll continue going for the Cup, get one good run by dumping our youth, then retire and we'll be left with a mess for another half a dozen years.

 

[RangerBoy]

This is a deeply flawed team. Even AV after the Ottawa game said we'll take the win and move on. It was not an impressive win. Even Jim Dolan didn't seem very impressed by the team. He is concerned about making the playoffs. Didn't mention winning a championship with this group when he spoke to Michael Kay/Don LaGreca and Mike Francesa.

 

[RangerBoy]

Dolan says Sather is the smartest hockey guy he knows. Gorton has been working for the Rangers since 2007 in various capacities. If Sather recommends Gorton for the GM job,Dolan isn't saying no since Slats is the smartest hockey guy he knows. Gorton is the Rangers #2. He does everything Sather doesn't like doing. Messier left the organization. There wasn't a job in management for him so he tried to become the head coach. Then Messier left. Francesa knows the Garden guys like Barry Watkins. There were many factors why the Rangers didn't hire Messier as coach. One factor is Messier will eventually be fired as the coach. The Garden didn't want to fire Messier. Patrick Ewing has never worked for the Knicks when he has been an assistant coach for other teams. Ewing has a good relationship with Dolan. The day will come when Messier or Ewing will get fired and that will be a public relations nightmare. They can hire Gorton and fire him in the future. No one will care. Hiring a team icon is a big problem. Francesa had Messier on his show during Super Bowl from the M&M store. He told Messier why the Rangers didn't hire him. Messier said he didn't look at it that way because that would mean he failed but he understood that sentiment.

 

[GAGLine]

Also while we love to second guess his free agent signings alot of us were applauding him when he made them. The only one I recall that got universally hated was Redden...

But Gomez and Drury were the top free agent centers in that FA class and we were all frothing at the mouth about getting BOTH! Holik was brought in to be an over priced checking line center and he might have done that job well if we actually had him do that job. He wound centering Lindros and Pavel Bure on the top line. We all loved getting Brad Richards and of course he comes and loses 50 percent of his effectiveness like every other free agent on the planet. We are all a bunch of second guessers here but if you look back at how we reacted to the deals at the time. We generally are for them.

We are allowed to be wrong. We aren't paid to build a cup-winning team. It's Sather's job to make the right moves. It's his job to have the foresight to see how his moves will benefit the team. It's his job to build this team into a cup winner. He hasn't done that. He hasn't come close to doing that.

Whether we as fans agree or disagree with the move at the time it is made is completely irrelevant. All that matters are the results, and the results haven't been there.

Any other team would have fired Sather by now.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Teams don't do this blow it all for one year thing. Ever. No team. That is a caricature of the level of strategy that it actually takes to try to run a franchise and win a championship. Teams don't trade their entire future, they'll trade a first and a prospect maybe at most to get a good piece for a cup run. And the Rangers didn't trade the entire future either. There shouldn't be binary choice between "future" and "present" - the best decision should be made based on the circumstances that it arises in, with the hopes of being good now and being good down the road. If you try to do just one, you'll end up doing neither.

Regardless of how we might assume Sather is thinking, this team isn't "winning now" short of a literally historic turn around. Nash is already here. MSL is already here. Hank is locked up. McD is locked up. Girardi is locked up. You think making an "about face" and trying to recoup some picks when possible is a bad idea? What's the alternative? Sell even more assets which don't exist for another huge contract player who there is literally no room for? The way forward at this point, even if you're thinking like Sather, is to keep the guys who are here and are "big pieces," try to add younger players on ELC or early contracts around them, and trade whatever assets become available as those new players move in. That is pretty much the only alternative aside from selling these star players, which I think we all know is not what Sather is going to do.

And again, for the third time, the 2015 draft is insanely far away. You're complaining about how you think something more than a year away from now might go. I agree that trading that pick was unfortunate, but I'm not about to complain about the way the draft after this draft might turn out. At that rate, let's all get angry about Richards not being bought out, Sather living to be 110 and never stepping down, and whatever other situations might have a chance of happening in the future.

I don't think you and I are on the same page - and probably never will be - so I suppose we'll just agree to disagree.

- Yeah, I think it would be insane to go into win-now mode, and think that one year later we can trade a major player, while we are in win-now mode, to recoup next year's first round draft pick.

- if, as you say, the team is 'not winning now short of a literally historic turn around', it makes zero sense to trade away a significant part of your future when even you admit the team is not winning now.

- the St Louis trade, sacrificing first a second round picks, is highly debatable even in a vacuum. When you take into account that Sather also sacrificed a first round pick for Nash and a second round pick for Clowe, THEN add in the first and second for St Louis, that's three years with a grand total of one first round and one second round draft pick. That's it.

- and even with all the above, three years of sacrificing draft picks, it brings us, in your words, to a place where we are 'not winning now, short of a literally historic turn around' is absolutely asinine. And I know you like to frame the 2015 first rounder like it's so far down the road, but Sather's three years of one first round draft pick and one second round draft pick actually started with last year's draft, continues of course through this year's draft, and goes through next year's draft - which by all accounts is supposed to be one of the best draft classes in quite a while.

I know you disagree with all of the above, but I think you're being very short-sighted and also completely wrong, and nothing you say will change my opinion. I'm sure you feel the same way about my opinion, so that's that.

 

[aufheben]

Slats will retire as soon as it will be time to rebuild again. He'll continue going for the Cup, get one good run by dumping our youth, then retire and we'll be left with a mess for another half a dozen years.

This is exactly what I fear/think will happen.

 

[True Blue]

This is exactly what I fear/think will happen.

As well

 

[True Blue]

- the St Louis trade, sacrificing first a second round picks, is highly debatable even in a vacuum. When you take into account that Sather also sacrificed a first round pick for Nash and a second round pick for Clowe, THEN add in the first and second for St Louis, that's three years with a grand total of one first round and one second round draft pick. That's it.

- and even with all the above, three years of sacrificing draft picks, it brings us, in your words, to a place where we are 'not winning now, short of a literally historic turn around' is absolutely asinine. And I know you like to frame the 2015 first rounder like it's so far down the road, but Sather's three years of one first round draft pick and one second round draft pick actually started with last year's draft, continues of course through this year's draft, and goes through next year's draft - which by all accounts is supposed to be one of the best draft classes in quite a while.

Great summary.