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Generational Talent vs Franchise Player

Gretzky and Lemieux entered the league about 5 years apart.

There's no reason to think why two amazing talents couldn't enter the league at relatively the same time. It might not be likely but it's realistically just a matter of probability.
Except they both wouldn't be the best prospect of the past decade or that time frame. And, generally, one player will always be held in slightly even regard. When if the last time we saw a draft where McKenzie's scouts were split right down the middle at 5 each. It's pretty uncommon for that to even happen, and then it would have to happen among the two best prospects of the past 10 years. The probability of that is tiny.

Look, Michael Jordan didn't enter the NBA as a generational talent. He proved to be the best player of all time though (the hyped up player was Ewing for the next years draft).
 
Except they both wouldn't be the best prospect of the past decade or that time frame. And, generally, one player will always be held in slightly even regard. When if the last time we saw a draft where McKenzie's scouts were split right down the middle at 5 each. It's pretty uncommon for that to even happen, and then it would have to happen among the two best prospects of the past 10 years. The probability of that is tiny.

Look, Michael Jordan didn't enter the NBA as a generational talent. He proved to be the best player of all time though (the hyped up player was Ewing for the next years draft).

A player's status as a generational player should be determined after their career is over. Not when they're entering the league.
 
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A player's status as a generational player should be determined after their career is over. Not when they're entering the league.
Except we were talking about the difference between generational talents (prospects) and generational players (established during their career). Generational talents don't always become generational players, but in Hockey, they generally have (Lemieux is one, Crosby probably is, McDavid is tracking, Lindros isn't because of injuries and issues).
 
I think Ovechkin, Crosby and McDavid appear to be in a class of their own. Call it Generational or whatever. All three will most likely end up being among the 20 best players in NHL history - a league that has been around for over 100 years with tens of thousands of players.

Malkin is not on their level and is not even close to "Generational." In fact, if we're being brutally honest, I don't even think Crosby is truly a "Generational" talent... or McDavid yet.

To me, there are only 4 Generational talents in history: Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux. That's it.

Crosby and Ovechkin are the best overall players in the post-2005 "New NHL" but only Ovechkin will go down as a player who be regarded as "the greatest all-time" in something, and that's goal scoring. By many accounts he's already considered the best goal scorer in history, and by the time he retires, he'll likely have scored more goals than Wayne Gretzky (which was one time considered unthinkable). If / when Ovechkin scores more goals than Gretzky, he will truly be an all-time "Generational" talent and might even end up as the 5th greatest player in history, ahead of Beliveau, Hull, Esposito, Rocket, etc.

I mean, Crosby has played 14 years and he has 2 MVP's and 2 Scoring Titles. Gretzky had 9 MVP's and 10 scoring titles. And he did some of it against prime Mario Lemieux. Although the best player over the last 15 years (or tied with Ovechkin), Crosby's awards aren't anything spectacular TBH. Like I said, 2 of each major award in 14 seasons. For comparison's sake, McDavid already has 1 MVP and 2 Scoring titles and he's not even through his 4th season. Point being, Sid's accomplishments are very good, but not Generational, and certainly not immortal.

This is where Ovechkin's legacy will pull him ahead... he'll go down as the greatest goal scorer in NHL history, and (if/when he beats Gretzky) his record will likely not be broken for decades. That is immortal status right there. The guy pretty much owns the Rocket Richard - he's like the Babe Ruth of hockey.

McDavid has the makings of being a special, special player who could end up a top-10 player of all-time, perhaps greater. One thing is for sure - both in terms of production and eye test - none of these players will top the all-time 4 legends of Howe, Orr, Gretzky or Lemieux.

Malkin, Kane, Kucherov, etc. are all awesome talents, but they are franchise players that teams can build around - annual all-stars. But we've seen players of their caliber before... in the 70's we had Lafleur, Clarke and Esposito. In the 80's we had Dionne, Yzerman, Bossy. Then Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, etc.

These days, "Generational" gets thrown around like candy because we live in sensational times with social media and the thirst to attention grab. Plain and simple. IMO, in order to be Generational, you either need to have transformed the game like none other, been an immortal talent wise, have accomplished something that no other human has in your sport, or be head and shoulders above your peers for well over a decade... like "you and the rest of the league" type of stuff. Gretzky did that, so did Orr, Howe and Mario for an extended period. In the cases of Mario and Orr, even though their careers were cut short, their raw talent was simply unparalleled on this side of Gretzky. In fact, many historians will say that both had more raw gifts and skills than Gretzky.
 
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I think Ovechkin, Crosby and McDavid appear to be in a class of their own. Call it Generational or whatever. All three will most likely end up being among the 20 best players in NHL history - a league that has been around for over 100 years with tens of thousands of players.

Malkin is not on their level and is not even close to "Generational." In fact, if we're being brutally honest, I don't even think Crosby is truly a "Generational" talent... or McDavid yet.

To me, there are only 4 Generational talents in history: Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux. That's it.

Crosby and Ovechkin are the best overall players in the post-2005 "New NHL" but only Ovechkin will go down as a player who be regarded as "the greatest all-time" in something, and that's goal scoring. By many accounts he's already considered the best goal scorer in history, and by the time he retires, he'll likely have scored more goals than Wayne Gretzky (which was one time considered unthinkable). If / when Ovechkin scores more goals than Gretzky, he will truly be an all-time "Generational" talent and might even end up as the 5th greatest player in history, ahead of Beliveau, Hull, Esposito, Rocket, etc.

I mean, Crosby has played 14 years and he has 2 MVP's and 2 Scoring Titles. Gretzky had 9 MVP's and 10 scoring titles. And he did some of it against prime Mario Lemieux. Although the best player over the last 15 years (or tied with Ovechkin), Crosby's awards aren't anything spectacular TBH. Like I said, 2 of each major award in 14 seasons. For comparison's sake, McDavid already has 1 MVP and 2 Scoring titles and he's not even through his 4th season. Point being, Sid's accomplishments are very good, but not Generational, and certainly not immortal.

This is where Ovechkin's legacy will pull him ahead... he'll go down as the greatest goal scorer in NHL history, and (if/when he beats Gretzky) his record will likely not be broken for decades. That is immortal status right there. The guy pretty much owns the Rocket Richard - he's like the Babe Ruth of hockey.

McDavid has the makings of being a special, special player who could end up a top-10 player of all-time, perhaps greater. One thing is for sure - both in terms of production and eye test - none of these players will top the all-time 4 legends of Howe, Orr, Gretzky or Lemieux.

Malkin, Kane, Kucherov, etc. are all awesome talents, but they are franchise players that teams can build around - annual all-stars. But we've seen players of their caliber before... in the 70's we had Lafleur, Clarke and Esposito. In the 80's we had Dionne, Yzerman, Bossy. Then Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, etc.

These days, "Generational" gets thrown around like candy because we live in sensational times with social media and the thirst to attention grab. Plain and simple. IMO, in order to be Generational, you either need to have transformed the game like none other, been an immortal talent wise, have accomplished something that no other human has in your sport, or be head and shoulders above your peers for well over a decade... like "you and the rest of the league" type of stuff. Gretzky did that, so did Orr, Howe and Mario for an extended period. In the cases of Mario and Orr, even though their careers were cut short, their raw talent was simply unparalleled on this side of Gretzky. In fact, many historians will say that both had more raw gifts and skills than Gretzky.
I'd honestly put the big four in the "once in a lifetime player" category. Those four players were all from another planet and we'll almost certainly never see another player like any of them in our lifetimes.

As for current candidates:
Crosby's concussion sauga took A LOT away from his trophy case and overall stats; I can totally see him winning at least 4-5 total MVPs and scoring titles in his career. Sad part is that he really had no control over it either since certain players decided to goon up. Overall though, his shortened peak and missed time due to various ailments will always be his downfall since he simply doesn't have the peak to compare with other ATGs. He's definitely a generational talent if we're talking about overall ability though.

Ovechkin's biggest pros is that he has been able to maintain a healthy and durable career, and will likely go down as the greatest goal scorer ever. The biggest knock on him will be that his game is not as versatile and well rounded as some of the other top players of all time. His overall impact to his team/teammates has also been questioned quite a lot as well compared to other ATGs. Despite that, I'd still easily put him in the gen talent category because of his otherworldly goal scoring ability

McDavid is definitely a gen talent based on his overall playing abilities but in terms of achievements, it's still wayyyy too early in his career to evaluate so maybe we'll come back to this discussion in 10 years or so.

Malkin, and Lindros before him, both sadly suffered from far too many injuries which cost them several seasons where they could've been very productive and put up elite numbers. Malkin has probably accomplished more than Lindros though and given how high his peak is, I think it at least puts him up for debate for the gen talent talk.
 
I'd honestly put the big four in the "once in a lifetime player" category. Those four players were all from another planet and we'll almost certainly never see another player like any of them in our lifetimes.

As for current candidates:
Crosby's concussion sauga took A LOT away from his trophy case and overall stats; I can totally see him winning at least 4-5 total MVPs and scoring titles in his career. Sad part is that he really had no control over it either since certain players decided to goon up. Overall though, his shortened peak due to various ailments will always be his downfall since he simply doesn't have the peak to compare with other ATGs. He's definitely a generational talent if we're talking about overall ability though.

Ovechkin's biggest pros is that he has been able to maintain a healthy and durable career, and will likely go down as the greatest goal scorer ever. The biggest knock on him will be that his game is not as versatile and well rounded as some of the other top players of all time. His overall impact to his team/teammates has also been questioned quite a lot as well compared to other ATGs. Despite that, I'd still easily put him in the gen talent category because of his otherworldly goal scoring ability

McDavid is definitely a gen talent based on his overall playing abilities but in terms of achievements, it's still wayyyy too early in his career to evaluate so maybe we'll come back to this discussion in 10 years or so.

Malkin, and Lindros before him, both sadly suffered from far too many injuries which cost them several seasons where they could've been very productive and put up elite numbers. Malkin has probably accomplished more than Lindros though and given how high his peak is, I think it at least gives puts him up for debate for the gen talent talk.

You make very good points but when discussing the elite of the all-time elite, injuries and "what ifs" only provides a little crutch. Even though Mario and Orr both... A) Played horribly injured throughout their careers, and B) Had their peaks unfortunately cut short...

They both legit DOMINATED during their runs. Orr had a stranglehold on the Norris his entire career and was a D scoring well over 100 points and winning Hart Trophies. Mario scored at the same PPG pace as Gretzky's best offensive season while battling cancer. Are you freaking kidding me?? Players miss multiple weeks these days with ankle sprains and a broken finger then fall out of the top 10-15 in scoring. Mario missed 20+ games while fighting cancer, not practicing, losing weight and energy, then returned on the night of his last cancer treatment and ended up putting the NHL through a shredder. I've said it over the years - what Mario did in 1992-93 was the single greatest feat by a professional athlete in sports history.

Then there was the eye test. Orr notoriously would take a puck while killing a penalty and rag the puck, skating through everyone until the 2 minutes were up. Lemieux would pull fans out of their seats on a nightly basis and make plays that NOBODY could before or after him. These guys were all-time artists, not players. They were on a completely different level, even though their careers were cut short.

Even with their injuries, Crosby, Lindros, Forsberg, Bossy, Malkin, etc. will never be close to Mario or Orr because they simply weren't close to as great. Period. And, if we look at those five above... all at their absolute best... I'm going....

1. Lindros
2. Forsberg
3. Crosby
4. Malkin
5. Bossy

Lindros and Forsberg were offensive juggernauts but also dominated and changed games physically. I've never in my life watched Crosby and said to myself, "Wow, I'm looking at a player who is head and shoulders better than anyone else on the ice." Never. To Sid's credit, he has been consistently great and a top player since day 1, so when you look at the last 15 years, you have to say either he or Ovechkin were the best. But even at his best, he wasn't levels ahead of Ovechkin, Malkin, Kane, Giroux, Benn, Getzlaf, Kucherov, McDavid, etc. Guys like Orr and Mario were levels above their peers.
 
You make very good points but when discussing the elite of the all-time elite, injuries and "what ifs" only provides a little crutch. Even though Mario and Orr both... A) Played horribly injured throughout their careers, and B) Had their peaks unfortunately cut short...

They both legit DOMINATED during their runs. Orr had a stranglehold on the Norris his entire career and was a D scoring well over 100 points and winning Hart Trophies. Mario scored at the same PPG pace as Gretzky's best offensive season while battling cancer. Are you freaking kidding me?? Players miss multiple weeks these days with ankle sprains and a broken finger then fall out of the top 10-15 in scoring. Mario missed 20+ games while fighting cancer, not practicing, losing weight and energy, then returned on the night of his last cancer treatment and ended up putting the NHL through a shredder. I've said it over the years - what Mario did in 1992-93 was the single greatest feat by a professional athlete in sports history.

Then there was the eye test. Orr notoriously would take a puck while killing a penalty and rag the puck, skating through everyone until the 2 minutes were up. Lemieux would pull fans out of their seats on a nightly basis and make plays that NOBODY could before or after him. These guys were all-time artists, not players. They were on a completely different level, even though their careers were cut short.

Even with their injuries, Crosby, Lindros, Forsberg, Bossy, Malkin, etc. will never be close to Mario or Orr because they simply weren't close to as great. Period. And, if we look at those five above... all at their absolute best... I'm going....

1. Lindros
2. Forsberg
3. Crosby
4. Malkin
5. Bossy

Lindros and Forsberg were offensive juggernauts but also dominated and changed games physically. I've never in my life watched Crosby and said to myself, "Wow, I'm looking at a player who is head and shoulders better than anyone else on the ice." Never. To Sid's credit, he has been consistently great and a top player since day 1, so when you look at the last 15 years, you have to say either he or Ovechkin were the best. But even at his best, he wasn't levels ahead of Ovechkin, Malkin, Kane, Giroux, Benn, Getzlaf, Kucherov, McDavid, etc. Guys like Orr and Mario were levels above their peers.
Oh I'm not trying to debate against Orr and Mario, those two are easily well above everyone in NHL history besides Wayne and Howe, but I do think you're underestimating some of the current guy's peak abilities.

Ovechkin pulled off a rare feat in 2008 by winning the Hart, Art Ross, Richard and Lindsay, while putting up an incredible 65 goals. Also, look at how many 45-50 goal seasons he's put up in an era that doesn't favor offensive players, and he's been doing this for over a decade now. He was also DOMINATING the whole league in the 09-10 season up until getting hurt at the Olympics or else he could've put up a year for the ages.

Crosby put up 120 points as a teenager (!!!) and pretty much swept all the awards up for grabs in 07. He also won the Art Ross by 17 points in 2014, which I believe is the widest margin in the new millennium. Also, his play for the first half of the 10/11 season was utter dominance, and literally no human on earth could hang with him that season. He was also lapping the field in 2013 until he suffered a freak injury after taking a puck to the face.

Malkin also became the first player since either Wayne or Mario to lead the league in points in both the RS and playoffs in 2009. His 2009 season was indeed one for the ages, especially given his postseason performance where he took home Conn Smythe. He also won the scoring title by 12 points in 2012, while carrying a Crosby-less Pens team to 109 points. Malkin's peak was arguably better than Crosby and Ovie's, he just doesn't have the durability/consistency to match up with the two in terms of overall career numbers and accolades.

Forsberg was an absolute monster at his peak too, and is in the top 10 all time in PPG. He had every skill and trick in the book and in terms of being better than his peers, he was pretty easily the best player from 2000-the lockout.

Lindros when healthy was Malkin/Forsberg level dominate but in terms of being the better than his peers, Lindros was never really that either. The 90's were dominated by Lemieux, Jagr, Hasek and an older Gretzky up until 94, and while Lindros did win an MVP, his total award case is smaller than all four above.
 
I think Ovechkin, Crosby and McDavid appear to be in a class of their own. Call it Generational or whatever. All three will most likely end up being among the 20 best players in NHL history - a league that has been around for over 100 years with tens of thousands of players.

Malkin is not on their level and is not even close to "Generational." In fact, if we're being brutally honest, I don't even think Crosby is truly a "Generational" talent... or McDavid yet.

To me, there are only 4 Generational talents in history: Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux. That's it.

Crosby and Ovechkin are the best overall players in the post-2005 "New NHL" but only Ovechkin will go down as a player who be regarded as "the greatest all-time" in something, and that's goal scoring. By many accounts he's already considered the best goal scorer in history, and by the time he retires, he'll likely have scored more goals than Wayne Gretzky (which was one time considered unthinkable). If / when Ovechkin scores more goals than Gretzky, he will truly be an all-time "Generational" talent and might even end up as the 5th greatest player in history, ahead of Beliveau, Hull, Esposito, Rocket, etc.

I mean, Crosby has played 14 years and he has 2 MVP's and 2 Scoring Titles. Gretzky had 9 MVP's and 10 scoring titles. And he did some of it against prime Mario Lemieux. Although the best player over the last 15 years (or tied with Ovechkin), Crosby's awards aren't anything spectacular TBH. Like I said, 2 of each major award in 14 seasons. For comparison's sake, McDavid already has 1 MVP and 2 Scoring titles and he's not even through his 4th season. Point being, Sid's accomplishments are very good, but not Generational, and certainly not immortal.

This is where Ovechkin's legacy will pull him ahead... he'll go down as the greatest goal scorer in NHL history, and (if/when he beats Gretzky) his record will likely not be broken for decades. That is immortal status right there. The guy pretty much owns the Rocket Richard - he's like the Babe Ruth of hockey.

McDavid has the makings of being a special, special player who could end up a top-10 player of all-time, perhaps greater. One thing is for sure - both in terms of production and eye test - none of these players will top the all-time 4 legends of Howe, Orr, Gretzky or Lemieux.

Malkin, Kane, Kucherov, etc. are all awesome talents, but they are franchise players that teams can build around - annual all-stars. But we've seen players of their caliber before... in the 70's we had Lafleur, Clarke and Esposito. In the 80's we had Dionne, Yzerman, Bossy. Then Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, etc.

These days, "Generational" gets thrown around like candy because we live in sensational times with social media and the thirst to attention grab. Plain and simple. IMO, in order to be Generational, you either need to have transformed the game like none other, been an immortal talent wise, have accomplished something that no other human has in your sport, or be head and shoulders above your peers for well over a decade... like "you and the rest of the league" type of stuff. Gretzky did that, so did Orr, Howe and Mario for an extended period. In the cases of Mario and Orr, even though their careers were cut short, their raw talent was simply unparalleled on this side of Gretzky. In fact, many historians will say that both had more raw gifts and skills than Gretzky.
When talking about the best of the best all-time. Sid's 3 Cups and 2 Conn Smythe's have to be equated in there somehow. When you are the best player on a cup-team, that is a big plus. Maybe he wasn't the best player in the playoffs during his respective cup runs, but he was pretty clearly the Pens franchise player and best player. I would say being the absolute best player on a cup-team is a significant benchmark to a guys legacy. While Malkin was a top 5 player for most of his first 10 years (and arguably top 3), it was always Sid's team. Kane gets some help with this too, but his status as the best Blackhawks players hasn't really been cemented until post-2015 cup, whereas previously it was viewed as between he, Toews and Keith. That help off-sets Ovi's 1 more Hart and Lindsay, and 1 cup/Conn Smythe is comparisson debates. Especially when you factor in stuff like the best on best golds with a very iconic goal to compliment it.
 
Oh I'm not trying to debate against Orr and Mario, those two are easily well above everyone in NHL history besides Wayne and Howe, but I do think you're underestimating some of the current guy's peak abilities.

Ovechkin pulled off a rare feat in 2008 by winning the Hart, Art Ross, Richard and Lindsay, while putting up an incredible 65 goals. Also, look at how many 45-50 goal seasons he's put up in an era that doesn't favor offensive players, and he's been doing this for over a decade now. He was also DOMINATING the whole league in the 09-10 season up until getting hurt at the Olympics or else he could've put up a year for the ages.

Crosby put up 120 points as a teenager (!!!) and pretty much swept all the awards up for grabs in 07. He also won the Art Ross by 17 points in 2014, which I believe is the widest margin in the new millennium. Also, his play for the first half of the 10/11 season was utter dominance, and literally no human on earth could hang with him that season. He was also lapping the field in 2013 until he suffered a freak injury after taking a puck to the face.

Malkin also became the first player since either Wayne or Mario to lead the league in points in both the RS and playoffs in 2009. His 2009 season was indeed one for the ages, especially given his postseason performance where he took home Conn Smythe. He also won the scoring title by 12 points in 2012, while carrying a Crosby-less Pens team to 109 points. Malkin's peak was arguably better than Crosby and Ovie's, he just doesn't have the durability/consistency to match up with the two in terms of overall career numbers and accolades.

Forsberg was an absolute monster at his peak too, and is in the top 10 all time in PPG. He had every skill and trick in the book and in terms of being better than his peers, he was pretty easily the best player from 2000-the lockout.

Lindros when healthy was Malkin/Forsberg level dominate but in terms of being the better than his peers, Lindros was never really that either. The 90's were dominated by Lemieux, Jagr, Hasek and an older Gretzky up until 94, and while Lindros did win an MVP, his total award case is smaller than all four above.
Shouldn't forget Fedorov. Between about 92-96 there was a strong argument for him being the best and most complete player in the league. He won a Hart, had another top 5 finish, and won 2 Selke's.
 
I mean, Crosby has played 14 years and he has 2 MVP's and 2 Scoring Titles. Gretzky had 9 MVP's and 10 scoring titles. And he did some of it against prime Mario Lemieux. Although the best player over the last 15 years (or tied with Ovechkin), Crosby's awards aren't anything spectacular TBH. Like I said, 2 of each major award in 14 seasons. For comparison's sake, McDavid already has 1 MVP and 2 Scoring titles and he's not even through his 4th season. Point being, Sid's accomplishments are very good, but not Generational, and certainly not immortal.

This is where Ovechkin's legacy will pull him ahead... he'll go down as the greatest goal scorer in NHL history, and (if/when he beats Gretzky) his record will likely not be broken for decades. That is immortal status right there. The guy pretty much owns the Rocket Richard - he's like the Babe Ruth of hockey.

McDavid has the makings of being a special, special player who could end up a top-10 player of all-time, perhaps greater. One thing is for sure - both in terms of production and eye test - none of these players will top the all-time 4 legends of Howe, Orr, Gretzky or Lemieux.

Malkin, Kane, Kucherov, etc. are all awesome talents, but they are franchise players that teams can build around - annual all-stars. But we've seen players of their caliber before... in the 70's we had Lafleur, Clarke and Esposito. In the 80's we had Dionne, Yzerman, Bossy. Then Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, etc.

These days, "Generational" gets thrown around like candy because we live in sensational times with social media and the thirst to attention grab. Plain and simple. IMO, in order to be Generational, you either need to have transformed the game like none other, been an immortal talent wise, have accomplished something that no other human has in your sport, or be head and shoulders above your peers for well over a decade... like "you and the rest of the league" type of stuff. Gretzky did that, so did Orr, Howe and Mario for an extended period. In the cases of Mario and Orr, even though their careers were cut short, their raw talent was simply unparalleled on this side of Gretzky. In fact, many historians will say that both had more raw gifts and skills than Gretzky.

Why are you pulling this intellectually dishonest shit? Crosby has earned his place all-time above OV based on being clearly the better player.

He will be known as the best player of this century for now (maybe #5 all-time) while OV will be right beside him with his goalscoring accolades.
 
Why are you pulling this intellectually dishonest ****? Crosby has earned his place all-time above OV based on being clearly the better player.

He will be known as the best player of this century for now (maybe #5 all-time) while OV will be right beside him with his goalscoring accolades.

Dishonest?? What did I say that was dishonest. Crosby has 2 Harts and 2 Art Ross trophies and he's played 14 seasons. What about that statement is dishonest?

I definitely don't think Crosby is 5th all-time in NHL history, no shot. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. To me, "Generational" players do something that has never been done before. Just because you are the "best player in the league during much of the time you played" doesn't mean you are an immortal that comes along a few times over a lifetime.

Like I said - to me, Howe, Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux are the only 4 players I have that are truly "Generational" as in what they did to / for the game may never be equaled. The reason why I have Ovechkin as a potential demigod and Generational talent is not due to his Cup, individual hardware and the like, but because he will likely end up the single greatest goal scorer in the history of the league. That right there is immortal level and a record that may never be touched... and, if it is, perhaps not for decades down the line.

As dominant as Gretzky was (by most accounts the greatest of all-time) the fact that Ovechkin will likely end up with more goals than him is absolutely incredible... a feat that no modern day player can touch or claim. When you are the greatest at something in the history of the best league in the world, you become an immortal. At least in my books. To me, Ovechkin will be to hockey with goals what Babe Ruth was to baseball with homeruns. Generational gods.

While I think Sid is a 1st ballot HHOFer and in the top-20 all-time, what has he done that other greats haven't? His career high in points is 120. He has 2 Harts, 2 Art Ross trophies. He has 3 Cups and 2 Conn Smythes. His complete body of work is elite, which is why he'll go down as an all-time great, but to me, he hasn't cemented himself ahead of a Jagr, Beliveau, Bobby Hull, Messier, just yet, etc. I still have him in the Yzerman category, which is still elite, because Yzerman was an all-time great. But, when Jagr ends up the greatest goal scorer of all-time, you're talking about unparalleled territory.

To me, Crosby has always been a weird duck, fairly and unfairly. He was over-hyped since day one because the league had a vested interest in pushing the "New NHL" and Crosby was the face. Quite frankly, it was unfair to Sid if you ask me. But the NHL was already labeling him "as great as Gretzky" early on and it was laughable. Crosby had the benefit of being forced down the public's throat for a decade plus, during the NHL's golden era of marketing and social media. The NHL insisted Crosby was "the greatest" so people assumed he was.

That said, Crosby took all of this in stride and didn't buckle under the pressure. And, in my honest opinion, grew into an incredible leader and all-time great. But I've been watching hockey non-stop since the 70's and I will say with 1,000% certainty that Crosby hasn't done anything that I haven't seen before, despite the NHL's narrative since 2005.

Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Mario all blew me away... mostly Gretzky and Lemieux, who I've watched since day one. There were times that players like Jagr, Lindros, Forsberg and Ovechkin also did things that put them on another level... but they couldn't sustain it like Wayne or Mario. The fact that Ovechkin will score more goals than anyone in history though will be the ultimate testament to him being a demigod and undisputed 5th all-time. You may disagree with me but that's how I see it.
 
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I think in the future the argument for Patrick Kane being generational will ring true. I think Patrick Kane is going to be remembered for a long time . He’s won 3 cups and a ton of awards, and every young hockey player who isn’t 6 feet + looks up to Kane and wants to play like him.

I play a little bit of pick up hockey and there’s tons of smallish high school kids that come out , that aren’t big , and they all act like, and try to play a similar style to Kane.

I think Kane embodies that highly skilled, fast player that the NHL is going for, and will eventually become. Not everyone in the league will be Kane size, but I bet we will see an influx of smaller players, all who shaped their game after Kane.

The case can’t be made for him yet, but it’s only a matter of time.
 
Dishonest?? What did I say that was dishonest. Crosby has 2 Harts and 2 Art Ross trophies and he's played 14 seasons. What about that statement is dishonest?

I definitely don't think Crosby is 5th all-time in NHL history, no shot. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. To me, "Generational" players do something that has never been done before. Just because you are the "best player in the league during much of the time you played" doesn't mean you are an immortal that comes along a few times over a lifetime.

I am arguing you putting OV over Crosby. If the # of Rosses and Harts is the be all, end all of player evaluation, where do you rank Beliveau and Richard all-time? I am assuming behind Jagr or Esposito?

As for Crosby being 5th all-time, you don't think he has a case for having the #5 best resume at age 31/after 15 seasons?
 
I am arguing you putting OV over Crosby. If the # of Rosses and Harts is the be all, end all of player evaluation, where do you rank Beliveau and Richard all-time? I am assuming behind Jagr or Esposito?

Right now, as in today, I don't necessarily have Ovechkin over Crosby. I would say they are neck and neck and for different reasons. I think Crosby was more consistent in many areas throughout their careers so, except for two major ones: Goal scoring and durability. That said, when they both retire, I am projecting that Ovechkin will be ahead of Crosby (definitely in my opinion at least) because I personally think Ovechkin will end up the single greatest goal scorer in NHL history. And that, is 100% something that Crosby cannot touch. Many players have Conn Smythes. Many players win Cups. Many players have scoring titles or an MVP.

To me, in order to be considered in that 5 spot behind the four gods: Howe, Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux - you need to do something absolutely remarkable and immortal - not just elite. Right now, Jagr is the 2nd greatest scorer in NHL history and lost prime years to the KHL. To me, that is remarkable and immortal level. Beliveau and Messier were key parts of dynasties and both were considered the greatest of leaders. Hasek also had an insane resume for a goalie, but I don't want to muddy the waters that much with tenders. Hull and Esposito were absolute beasts, and during their peaks, were more dominant than a player like Crosby. Both in terms of production and the flat-out eye test.

Crosby, like I said, is in the Yzerman mix but will most likely continue on to pass Yzerman, Esposito and Hull. Messier is tricky, because he was elite offensively but that was not even his calling card or what made him a titan. Crosby needs to do a lot more to pass Messier and Beliveau in my books, and he might not. But I'm not ruling it out.

All of that said, when Ovechkin breaks Gretzky's goal record, he immediately supplants himself in the 5 spot and he will not be touched for a long time. At least that's one man's opinion. Greatness is ultimately in the eye of the beholder, so if you have Crosby 5th, that's up to you. You're entitled to your opinion.

One of the reasons I will never have Crosby 5th - the same way I don't have Yzerman, Sakic, Trottier or Clarke 5th - is because they never "wowed me." These guys were all just incredibly consistent and excellent players who deserve to be considered all-time greats. They were steady and reliably great. They all have awards, Cups, elite resumes. But they never stopped me in my tracks and made me say, "Damn, I'm watching something immortal here." Like I said, Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Ovechkin, Forsberg, Lindros, Hasek all did that. Forsberg and Lindros didn't do it enough or long enough for various reasons, which is unfortunate. Bob Hull, Jagr and Ovechkin did.

Again, my opinion. But I've watched the NHL closely for 45 years and players like Crosby, Yzerman, Sakic, Francis, Clarke, Trottier, Malkin, etc. never made my jaw drop. But they are still elite, all-time greats.

As for Crosby being 5th all-time, you don't think he has a case for having the #5 best resume at age 31/after 15 seasons?

No. He's not 5th all-time in my opinion. And his resume is beginning to stagnate in terms of potential legend status. McDavid and others seem to have a lock down on Art Rosses and Harts. The Pens are not the Pens of old and it appears their Cup wins are past them, although you never know for sure. Crosby also doesn't score enough these days to amass immortal Jagr level points when it's all said and done. Again, nothing is impossible I guess, but I don't see it.

But see, that's the thing about Ovechkin that makes him a potential demigod and full-fledged Generational talent... the dude is 32+ and is still scoring at the godlike level. It's like he owns the Rocket, even at his age. That in itself is legend status.

I'll try to wrap it up like this... there's a bunch of plastic eggs in a basket. All of them have something great inside them. These eggs are Crosby, Messier, Beliveau, Yzerman, Hull, Jagr, Sakic, Esposito, Richard, etc. You can pick the one you like the best based on color... blue, red, orange, etc. They are all incredible... perhaps even a toss up. Pick the one you like. However, there is only one egg that has a 25k gold coin inside of it... it's more special than the rest because it has something the other great eggs don't. When Ovechkin breaks Gretzky's record in goals, he instantly becomes that egg with the gold inside of it. And he becomes better than the other great eggs.
 
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So what happens if Kooch wins the Art Ross and Hart this year and next?

Then can he be talked about in the same hallowed halls as McDavid?

Let’s face it.....there are a handful of players that can win the award every year.

Sure McDavis is the most consistent.....but does that make his prowess as impressive as Gretzky?

Nah.....he’s just one of a few damned good players

If Kooch puts up 20 more points than McDavid this year I have no issue calling him better.

Just like if McDavid was lapping the field you’d be trumpeting the GOAT AINEC flag.

This is absolutely ridiculous - you are intentionally ignoring facts and previous winners for hypotheticals. Mcdavid is in his 4th year in the league while winning the art ross on 2/3 (and both seasons he's been health) - but yeah he's just one of a few good players.

Git your bias outta here bud you sound like a goof.
 
How to define the difference between Franchise/Generational/Superstar/Star players?
 
This is absolutely ridiculous - you are intentionally ignoring facts and previous winners for hypotheticals. Mcdavid is in his 4th year in the league while winning the art ross on 2/3 (and both seasons he's been health) - but yeah he's just one of a few good players.

Git your bias outta here bud you sound like a goof.

Let's face it, McDavid is extremely impressive. What he's done at his age is absolutely remarkable. I don't think anyone can argue with, or deny, that. But there is some validity in what the other poster was saying if we want to remove all bias and look at this objectively.

McDavid won the Art Ross last year by 6 points. He scored 8 points more than the player who is outscoring him by 15 points this very minute. Point being, he is the odds on favorite to win the Art Ross any given season, but he is no lock, and he does not lap the field. Players like Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, etc. straight up lapped the field. McDavid beats Kucherov by 8 points one season then loses to him by say 10 the next. What's that honestly say? That McDavid is among the players who can contend for the Art Ross consistently.

Meanwhile, Gretzky was winning scoring titles on his assists alone. Lemieux was fighting cancer, missing time and practice (let alone the physical and emotional anguish) and was still dominating the league and winning scoring titles. That, right there, is what you call immortal. Nobody was coming in and outscoring gods like Gretzky and Lemieux at their best... wasn't happening. The only thing that could hurt Mario was a back so injured that he couldn't even put his carry-on atop the airplane.

The problems that some fans have is that we live in this unrealistic "we want everything now" world and it's no different in sports. After 4-5 years, Gretzky still wasn't considered "Gretzky" in the eyes of most. Yet, today, a player like Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Giroux, McDavid, Kane, Karlsson, Price, has a few incredible years and people want to immediately label them "the greatest AINEC!!!"

The NHL marketing machine was hyping up Crosby and shinning him off as great as Gretzky when he was 25 years old, with 1 Cup and a few major awards under his belt. Today, McDavid is the new "Gretzky" and the greatest thing all-time. While he's great, let me tell you something... there's no way Nikita Kucherov would be leading a prime Gretzky or Lemieux by 15 points at the end of February.

McDavid COULD end up a demigod. He has accomplished more in a few years than almost all of the elites, but he needs to actually DO IT consistently the way Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, etc. did it. Or the way Ovechkin does it with goals.
 
But see, that's the thing about Ovechkin that makes him a potential demigod and full-fledged Generational talent... the dude is 32+ and is still scoring at the godlike level. It's like he owns the Rocket, even at his age. That in itself is legend status.
This is something I've started to hold against Crosby. He has burned out way to early. That has cost him a lot in my all time ranking. Gretzky won an Art at the age of 34, when his back was already half gone. And he came in third as late as the age of 37. Lemieux dominated even after a three year hiatus. And Ovechkin, like you say, is still winning Rockets in the year he becomes 34.

If Crosby's last top three finish, is at the age of 30, that's not very legendary. Or the last Art 27 for that matter. Finishing after Jamie Benn two years straight is another no no.
 
How to define the difference between Franchise/Generational/Superstar/Star players?

Great question actually. That's the thing - the definition is in the eye of the beholder. Many people define these differently. Here's my personal take...

FRANCHISE: A franchise player is a player who ends up an organizational icon. A player who automatically takes his team to a whole new level. A player that produces at the top of his franchise and is also beloved by the fans. This player is "the face" or "one of the few faces" of his entire organization. These players are the one(s) you immediately think of when someone mentions a particular team. Names that come to mind are: Ovechkin, Crosby, McDavid, Kane, Matthews, Dahlin, Giroux, Getzlaf, Tavares, Karlsson, Doughty, Malkin, MacKinnon, etc.

SUPERSTAR: All franchise players are superstars IMO but not all superstars are necessarily franchise players. Superstars are great, sometimes elite players, but for whatever reason lack the consistency, staying power, likability, attitude, etc. as franchise players. Some examples are the great players who end up getting traded, sometimes multiple times. Guys like Kessel, Subban, Seguin, etc. I wouldn't particularly consider them franchise players because some franchises do better without them. But they are (or have been) superstars. They are among the elite players in the NHL at any given moment. Some superstars are also franchise players though - even if traded - Gretzky, Jagr, Bourque, Thornton, Karlsson, etc.

STAR: These players are high-end players that are a cut below league icons and superstars. They are great, but sometimes just good or very good, and you would likely never consider them "untouchable." Examples of star players are Voracek, Johansen, Huberdeau, Couture, etc.

GENERATIONAL: This is the largest grey area IMO. It seems to me that some people consider top superstars or franchise players to be automatically "Generational" players. I've heard all of these players considered "Generational" at some point: Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, McDavid, Thornton, Karlsson, Kane, Doughty, Tavares, Stamkos, MacKinnon, Matthews, Eichel, Dahlin. And, I disagree with this sentiment. Yet, some don't. TO ME... a Generational player is the type of player that comes around rarely in a lifetime (regardless of era or "generation") and completely dominates the league, their peers, or impacts the game in ways that have never been done before. When they are playing, there is ZERO debate if they are the greatest, and even perhaps the greatest all-time.

Gordie Howe was the first "Generational" player IMO. Shore, Richard, Morenz, etc. were among the best Superstars in hockey history but none of them dominated like Howe. None of them had his longevity, consistency and constant production. None of them dominated in multiple ways: offensively and physically. None of them lived up to the legend of Mr. Hockey the way Gordie did. Some consider him the greatest of all-time. He's without question in the top 3 or 4 at the worst.

Bobby Orr was the next "Generational" player. Here was a defensemen carrying the puck end to end better than anyone in history. He changed the position, the way teams defended against defensemen, and he made young kids want to play defense. He owned the Norris trophy for 8 consecutive years and he scored more points than 99% of forwards when he played. No player in hockey history dominated the entire ice (all 3 zones) like Orr. And, even though his career was cut short, he was so dominant when he played, many people still consider him the single greatest player in hockey history.

Wayne Gretzky was the next (and ultimate) "Generational" player. He was the greatest offensive machine in hockey history and it wasn't close. That term is used way too much these days, but with Gretzky it was real. He would win scoring titles just on his assists alone. He is the only player in hockey history to score 200+ points in a season. He was hockey's first name that was borderline celebrity. He grew the league by his move to Los Angeles. Many of his records will never be broken. The majority of hockey people consider him the greatest of all-time and some insist nobody will ever be greater.

Mario Lemieux was the most recent "Generational" player, even though his timeline mostly coincided with Gretzky. It's like the two greatest offensive gods of all-time were placed on earth around the same time. It was even closer in timeline than Cobb-Ruth and Howe-Orr. It was absolutely remarkable... and those lucky enough to see them both throughout their careers should feel blessed - I know I do!! Lemiuex took over for Gretzky as the undisputed greatest and it was never a question. He was the only player in hockey history who could match Gretzky offensively at his best. Of course Lemieux always fell a tad short due to injuries or cancer. However, during the year he fought cancer, he scored at the same pace Gretzky did when he scored 215 points!! While fighting cancer. Mind-boggling. Immortal. He also scored 199 points. A lot of hockey people insist that Lemieux may not have been the "all-around greatest player ever" but he was without question "the most talented of all-time." The other thing Mario had going for him - that Howe and Gretzky did not - is the flair for the dramatic and artistry. If Gretzky was a master chess player, and Gordie was the brute force missile, Mario was the genius artist. He was the most exciting player in hockey history IMO and he did multiple things every game that pulled fans out of their seats and made them question what they just saw. Every. Freaking. Game. Nobody could touch Mario at his best, even when he was busted and broken. I'm still shocked by many of the things this man was able to do with a puck on his stick. His physical gifts will NEVER be matched. I'm convinced of that.

To me, this is where the list ends. Since Mario, I have seen some players do things that amaze me, but they didn't do them frequently enough to be considered as great as the four above. The closest have been Hull, Jagr and Ovechkin. McDavid is starting to but it's way to early to even consider him among the all-time demigods.

Others have been consistently great (Crosby, Yzerman, Messier, Sakic, Trottier, Clarke, Mikita, etc.) but they never equaled the players above and they never did anything that wasn't done before. Crosby, Yzerman and Sakic are all similar. Clarke was like Lindsay. Mikita and Trottier were similar but never dominated on a level of Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux. None of these players were able to OWN the elite awards for long periods. At times they were great (or the greatest) but other times they weren't.

In my opinion, "Generational" doesn't just mean that you were the best "when you played", it needs to be more than that. To me, it means you are the type of unique talent that only comes along a few times in history. The NHL has been around for over 100 years and I only consider 4 players to be Generational TODAY.

That said, Ovechkin could very well be the 5th if/when he becomes the single greatest goalscorer in NHL history. When you own that title and accomplish such an impossible feat (and most feel besting Gretzky in goals is), you belong among the "only comes along a few times in a lifetime" category. Hence, "Generational."

My opinion.
 
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Generational= most feared players of their generation...transformative, who changed the game...first ballot HOF’er. Examples: Gretzky, Mario, Gordie, Orr and Roy.

Franchise=potential (but not necessarily) HOF’er, and are in the top 10-20 players of their generation. Examples: Modano, Lafleur, Forsburg, Trottier, Kane, and Kucherov.
 
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you hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't call Malkin a generational player though, however he does belong in that group (87/8/97) if that makes sense because he can play at that level and has shown that he can, just hasn't done it with the consistency the others have.

I wouldn't put Kane in that group though. He's clearly better than all of the names listed. He's in an awkward spot in b/w the big 3/4 and the others
First off I’m a Pens fan, and Malkin is my favorite active player, but understand I can put bias aside and use nuance. Malkin has generational skill, and anyone that really truly watches this game would be hard pressed to disagree. But it is like you said and I have also said a hundred times over, Geno could be the best player in the world if he gave 100% in 100% of games. He is what I like to call a “switch” player. You get a damn good hockey player almost every night. But whatever that game flips Geno’s switch. Buyer beware because he will destroy your team. That in it, I’ve never viewed Geno as a pure “generational player”, but he is without any doubt of an opinion that I would respect a “generational talent”. People want players at the top end to be ether an A or a B. But it is a gradient. Players that just simply deliver 100% day in day out only come along once a decade. But generational talents come along a bit more often. A few times or a handful a decade. It’s what the do with that talent that make them legends. Doesn’t lesson their talent per say, it’s just they are not that “legend”. So what I’m getting at is those legend players. Guys on the ice that simply just carve a slot through the ice from their first step till retirement are rare... But I do believe we need to be more careful as fans as we describe generational talents... as apposed to generational players.
 
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First off I’m a Pens fan, and Malkin is my favorite active player, but understand I can put bias aside and use nuance. Malkin has generational skill, and anyone that really truly watches this game would be hard pressed to disagree. But it is like you said and I have also said a hundred times over, Geno could be the best player in the world if he gave 100% in 100% of games. He is what I like to call a “switch” player. You get a damn good hockey player almost every night. But whatever that game flips Geno’s switch. Buyer beware because he will destroy your team. That in it, I’ve never viewed Geno as a pure “generational player”, but he is without any doubt of an opinion that I would respect a “generational talent”. People want players at the top end to be ether an A or a B. But it is a gradient. Players that just simply deliver 100% day in day out only come along once a decade. But generational talents come along a bit more often. A few times or a handful a decade. It’s what the do with that talent that make them legends. Doesn’t lesson their talent per say, it’s just they are not that “legend”. So what I’m getting at is those legend players. Guys on the ice that simply just carve a slot through the ice from their first step till retirement are rare... But I do believe we need to be more careful as fans as we describe generational talents... as apposed to generational players.

This is an interesting post and I think your point is extremely valid - I know what you mean. I've also said it for years, that when all players in the NHL are at their very best, the two scariest (skill wise) are Malkin and Kane. The problem is, neither player can sustain that level enough to own tons of awards and NHL records. When Malkin is "on" he can be as dominant as prime Jagr at times. I remember watching Jagr in the 90's (as a Flyers fan) and I would be scared to death when he touched the puck. Mario, forget about it. He was so great, I waived the white flag and learned to marvel at his gifts. Over the years, there's be some times where Geno is in the on position and scares the bajesus out of me. Ironically, Crosby never does. He just doesn't. He's very talented and skilled, but he's not scary. So I know what you mean about Malkin - big, rangy, elusive, great one-on-one moves, etc.
 
Dishonest?? What did I say that was dishonest. Crosby has 2 Harts and 2 Art Ross trophies and he's played 14 seasons. What about that statement is dishonest?

Because you went into a long winded analysis on who you thought was generational, and Mario kept popping up on that list despite him likely having a very similar trophy case to Crosby when all is said and done. Try taking the same standards you applied to mario for generational talent and then I think you would arrive at the same conclusion about crosby.
 

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