GDT: GDT #32 New York Islanders @ Chicago Blackhawks | December 15th | 3:00 PM | F/5-3 L

[MJF]

More like I want anyone else making these decisions

That would be part B of my bottoming out process.

 

[Rehabguy]

Gentlemen. Is it time for the billboards?

People really blaming Barzal? He made the offense somewhat interesting and it's his first game back, it's mindbogglng what goes through some fans heads

Don't even bother.

 

[Rehabguy]

Speaking of relevance, we can't even suck bad enough to be a story, It looks like those goddamn Rags are going to steal all of suckedness headlines again tomorrow.

And yet maybe 2 months ago many Islander fans maybe we should have rebuilt the team as the Rags or Bruins had done. Now that the Panthers are the latest example of success yet 2 or 3 years ago were just where the Islanders were- struggling to make the playoffs, thinking aha- we should be modeling after the Panthers. It never ends.

The team doesn't need a major overhaul right now of its roster but maybe it is time for a new voice to lead this organization. Maybe it is time to rid this team of this unchampionship like mentality and rid this team of Lou and his "culture". We need more of the old timer culture that Roy brings and not this boy scout well shaven, play nice bullshit that Lou seems to believe is the way. Hey I'm happy that he brought us Roy and I like the trade for Romanov but that's about it for me.

As for Roy. I like his game plan. I like his attitude. I like the way he holds players accountable. He could care less that Lou signed Engvall for too much money. He's soft as shit when they got him and he's still soft as shit. Not willing to sacrifice the body AT ALL and drive to the net with his skill. If he can contribute in other ways then fine, but the guy puts up no points and makes tons of money. So I'm not at all upset with how Roy is handling that situation it is the first step towards these guys acting like men.

Bottom line this team needs to get its balls back and the first step in that is to get rid of Lou and his silly culture.

 

[DerekKingSnipes]

But… why? If Roy was Lou’s choice, and we’re ditching Lou, what’s the logic behind promoting a random former goalie with no prior GMing experience?

We’ve done that once before you know…

He ran the Quebec league team also, I think he wants shot at it. They could kick Lou upstairs as president and have Roy work with him. I don’t know I guess they could just clear out both of them and start again with a new GM also. If they go that route it’s not happening until the summer.

if Roy has Lou's ear on every move thats sorta like being assistant gm / coach already.

Patrick might be the voice of reason in the upcoming weeks in regards to trades / extensions / waivers .

Who knows but it’s been rumored that isn’t case, Lou hasn’t consulted with Roy at all which doesn’t make any sense but it’s been reported that’s the case. I would think all GM make decisions but in the individual minutia of decisions I would think most coaches have some input.

 

[Torrey Redux]

And yet maybe 2 months ago many Islander fans maybe we should have rebuilt the team as the Rags or Bruins had done. Now that the Panthers are the latest example of success yet 2 or 3 years ago were just where the Islanders were- struggling to make the playoffs, thinking aha- we should be modeling after the Panthers. It never ends.

The team doesn't need a major overhaul right now of its roster but maybe it is time for a new voice to lead this organization. Maybe it is time to rid this team of this unchampionship like mentality and rid this team of Lou and his "culture". We need more of the old timer culture that Roy brings and not this boy scout well shaven, play nice bullshit that Lou seems to believe is the way. Hey I'm happy that he brought us Roy and I like the trade for Romanov but that's about it for me.

As for Roy. I like his game plan. I like his attitude. I like the way he holds players accountable. He could care less that Lou signed Engvall for too much money. He's soft as shit when they got him and he's still soft as shit. Not willing to sacrifice the body AT ALL and drive to the net with his skill. If he can contribute in other ways then fine, but the guy puts up no points and makes tons of money. So I'm not at all upset with how Roy is handling that situation it is the first step towards these guys acting like men.

Bottom line this team needs to get its balls back and the first step in that is to get rid of Lou and his silly culture.

Anyone who thinks that there is some kind quick turnaround/attitude adjustment/retool that is going to make this team a true contender and not the perennially somewhat competitive, middle of the pack, marginal playoff team that it is, is engaging in wishful thinking and is simply ignoring the age of the team, the contracts and the state of the farm system. While you are right about rebuilds, there are no guarantees, sometimes you have no choice.

I don't have a strong opinion about Roy one way or the other as coach but as I have said before, he is presiding of the worst PK in the league two years running. If you have decent NHL quality players you should be able to do better than that with the right scheme and according to you, this team has the NHL quality players to be competitive now. How do you reconcile those two things?

I don't know what you are talking about when you say that Lou does not embrace "old-timer" culture when he is the poster great-grandfather for it, but yeah, the silly no facial hair rules and I'm sure other aspects of what is expected is completely out of step with where the NHL is heading. I don't think those things necessarily affect what happens on the ice in a direct way but it's indicative of being out of touch.

What we do agree on 100% is that Lou has to go.

 

[Rehabguy]

Anyone who thinks that there is some kind quick turnaround/attitude adjustment/retool that is going to make this team a true contender and not the perennially somewhat competitive, middle of the pack, marginal playoff team that it is, is engaging in wishful thinking and is simply ignoring the age of the team, the contracts and the state of the farm system. While you are right about rebuilds, there are no guarantees, sometimes you have no choice.

I don't have a strong opinion about Roy one way or the other as coach but as I have said before, he is presiding of the worst PK in the league two years running. If you have decent NHL quality players you should be able to do better than that with the right scheme and according to you, this team has the NHL quality players to be competitive now. How do you reconcile those two things?

I don't know what you are talking about when you say that Lou does not embrace "old-timer" culture when he is the poster great-grandfather for it, but yeah, the silly no facial hair rules and I'm sure other aspects of what is expected is completely out of step with where the NHL is heading. I don't think those things necessarily affect what happens on the ice in a direct way but it's indicative of being out of touch.

What we do agree on 100% is that Lou has to go.

The problem with Lou is that he sold the farm to bring in middling type players. Pageau and Horvat are 2 such players. I appreciate what both of them bring to the table but they were not worth the assets we gave up for them. Romanov alone for a first rounder would have been questionable as well if it weren’t for the promise we see in George. There is not enough of a farm system to actually do a proper rebuild because instead of rebuilding the roster when Lou took it over he tried to enhance it with grinders who would do well under Trotz archaic system and over paid for them in the process.

If any Islander fan hopes to have any chance to see a cup in the next decade we almost HAVE to go with the current lineup and take their chances because we have nothing to give without severely weakening an already needy line up. The only proper way to perform a proper rebuild is to actually grow old and actually suck for many years rather than doing this half baked patch job that will end up bringing back mediocrity in return further perpetuating the dilemma. We do not have any assets to bring back the type of players some are looking for.

As for the age issue with the Islanders they are on the wrong side of the bell curve but that curve can be deceiving. Most of the impactful players on this team if properly coached are still in their prime. The team is also homogeneous enough in age that it is not any particular 1 or 2 impact players that skewing the age curve. We are not like the Pens whose 2 star players are 37 and 38 years old. Varlamov is the teams oldest player and Martin our second. Martin does not see enough ice time to affect the teams success or lack of. Also luck will have it that the hockey gods gifted us the likes of Eiserman, Tsyplakov, and George whose presence in the lineup can skew the teams age at or below the median age in the NHL which is now over 28 years of age. Most importantly these can be impact players.

So I say ride this group for as long as they can and hope like the Panthers one of these years in the future they win a Cup or just let them continue to grow old, suck really bad. Rack up a number of top picks and then build your team of the future. Trading mediocrity for mediocrity will get this team nowhere.

 

[Torrey Redux]

The problem with Lou is that he sold the farm to bring in middling type players. Pageau and Horvat are 2 such players. I appreciate what both of them bring to the table but they were not worth the assets we gave up for them. Romanov alone for a first rounder would have been questionable as well if it weren’t for the promise we see in George. There is not enough of a farm system to actually do a proper rebuild because instead of rebuilding the roster when Lou took it over he tried to enhance it with grinders who would do well under Trotz archaic system and over paid for them in the process.

If any Islander fan hopes to have any chance to see a cup in the next decade we almost HAVE to go with the current lineup and take their chances because we have nothing to give without severely weakening an already needy line up. The only proper way to perform a proper rebuild is to actually grow old and actually suck for many years rather than doing this half baked patch job that will end up bringing back mediocrity in return further perpetuating the dilemma. We do not have any assets to bring back the type of players some are looking for.

As for the age issue with the Islanders they are on the wrong side of the bell curve but that curve can be deceiving. Most of the impactful players on this team if properly coached are still in their prime. The team is also homogeneous enough in age that it is not any particular 1 or 2 impact players that skewing the age curve. We are not like the Pens whose 2 star players are 37 and 38 years old. Varlamov is the teams oldest player and Martin our second. Martin does not see enough ice time to affect the teams success or lack of. Also luck will have it that the hockey gods gifted us the likes of Eiserman, Tsyplakov, and George whose presence in the lineup can skew the teams age at or below the median age in the NHL which is now over 28 years of age. Most importantly these can be impact players.

So I say ride this group for as long as they can and hope like the Panthers one of these years in the future they win a Cup or just let them continue to grow old, suck really bad. Rack up a number of top picks and then build your team of the future. Trading mediocrity for mediocrity will get this team nowhere.

No offense, but to me what your saying is 'run it back', that is, the Lou plan, you just don't want Lou to be the one to run it back.

Lou created this mess, no doubt, and has to go but bringing in someone new is not going make the mess go away. That is going to take time and pain.

 

[Rehabguy]

No offense, but to me what your saying is 'run it back', that is, the Lou plan, you just don't want Lou to be the one to run it back.

Lou created this mess, no doubt, and has to go but bringing in someone new is not going make the mess go away. That is going to take time and pain.

Yes that’s it exactly. The decision was already made and we can’t go back now. There’s nothing left to do but let it all play out. Either hope for another run or hope we fail miserably and tank to begin the rebuild.

 

[Torrey Redux]

Yes that’s it exactly. The decision was already made and we can’t go back now. There’s nothing left to do but let it all play out. Either hope for another run or hope we fail miserably and tank to begin the rebuild.

Hoping for another run would be futile yet we're not so bad that we will fail miserably all of which would mean the worst possible outcome; perpetuating the status quo. As in, "the definition of insanity is .............."

Fire Lou, start selling and get on with it.

 

[Throttle]

Lou sold the farm for middling players. Uh-huh.

 

[Rehabguy]

Hoping for another run would be futile yet we're not so bad that we will fail miserably all of which would mean the worst possible outcome; perpetuating the status quo. As in, "the definition of insanity is .............."

Fire Lou, start selling and get on with it.

I can appreciate you wanting to blow it all up and build something better, but with what? You readily admit this is a mediocre team Lou created yet you expect to take those mediocre players and turn them into something better? How do you do that? We have no picks to sweeten the deals. Do you trade Eiserman? Tsyplakov? Sorokin? Barzal? We have a team that can barely score goals and we want to trade Nelson? The time to have made a decision to rebuild was immediately following the failed attempt after the 2nd ECF loss. Lou waited to long and now what could have been strong assets are aged players on a team looking from the outside of the playoff picture. You ALWAYS trade from a position of strength. The Islanders are not in a position of strength and any trade any GM or worse Lou makes now will only be for a lesser player in return and maybe a few late round picks at best. How does that take this team to the next level? You are just perpetuating mediocrity. You are just reshuffling the deck and getting nowhere.

The only way any franchise has obtained the elite players you appear to be looking for that made them cup contenders is by sucking really bad and for many years and picking one of them in the draft. That's just the natural course of things. You take the best players on this team right now and trade them all for what you assume will be better players and I guarantee you you will be doing the exact thing you are trying to avoid- building another team just good enough to touch the playoffs but bad enough to never actually win it. By trying to improve the team now with less than stellar assets is just perpetuating this team in mediocrity. Lou positioned this team between a rock and a hard place.

Our best bet- since the decision was made about 3 years ago by Lou, is just to go with the present roster, maybe make a few acceptable trades like the Duclair acquisition and hope that Roy can turn this things around. In the meantime we wait a couple of years to bring up Eiserman for his scoring touch and maybe a few of our other AHL standouts like George and build from that. One voice can absolutely make a difference. For better or for worse Trotz took a purportedly mediocre team and took it all the way to the ECF twice. The only change was a new voice. This unfortunately is our best bet to actually seeing a Cup in the next 10 years. Bill boards have consequences.

If this all fails you let it fail, like the Pens are doing right now. Because they know the road to elite players is by tanking (ie DONT TRY TO IMPROVE THE TEAM by making rash decisions and selling off any remaining assets. That's exactly what Lou did). My local team the Lightning became a Cup contender when they picked Stamkos in the 2008 draft and followed that up with Hedman the following year. Pens got Malkin in 2004 and Crosby in 2005. That's how you get to the Cup. You can't trade a bunch of mediocre players for those kind of players. The time for a "proper" rebuild is long gone when Lou decided to keep most of the roster intact. Lou did not "run it all back" as you claim he did, in fact he kept most of the team's core intact. Running it all back means starting from scratch and building something completely new.

 

[Big L]

Can anyone give examples of any team that went to conference or Stanley cup finals and then immediately started a rebuild the following year?

 

[Chapin Landvogt]

Can anyone give examples of any team that went to conference or Stanley cup finals and then immediately started a rebuild the following year?

Maybe, basically Montreal after that pandemic cup run a few years back?

 

[Potvottier]

Maybe, basically Montreal after that pandemic cup run a few years back?

True, but Price's LTIR was a noose around their neck. What choice did they have?

 

[Torrey Redux]

I can appreciate you wanting to blow it all up and build something better, but with what? You readily admit this is a mediocre team Lou created yet you expect to take those mediocre players and turn them into something better? How do you do that? We have no picks to sweeten the deals. Do you trade Eiserman? Tsyplakov? Sorokin? Barzal? We have a team that can barely score goals and we want to trade Nelson? The time to have made a decision to rebuild was immediately following the failed attempt after the 2nd ECF loss. Lou waited to long and now what could have been strong assets are aged players on a team looking from the outside of the playoff picture. You ALWAYS trade from a position of strength. The Islanders are not in a position of strength and any trade any GM or worse Lou makes now will only be for a lesser player in return and maybe a few late round picks at best. How does that take this team to the next level? You are just perpetuating mediocrity. You are just reshuffling the deck and getting nowhere.

The only way any franchise has obtained the elite players you appear to be looking for that made them cup contenders is by sucking really bad and for many years and picking one of them in the draft. That's just the natural course of things. You take the best players on this team right now and trade them all for what you assume will be better players and I guarantee you you will be doing the exact thing you are trying to avoid- building another team just good enough to touch the playoffs but bad enough to never actually win it. By trying to improve the team now with less than stellar assets is just perpetuating this team in mediocrity.

Our best bet- since the decision was made about 3 years ago with Lou, is just to go with the present roster, maybe make a few acceptable trades like the Duclair acquisition and hope that Roy can turn this things around. In the meantime we wait a couple of years to bring up Eiserman for his scoring touch and maybe a few of our other AHL standouts like George and build from that. One voice can absolutely make a difference. For better or worse Trotz took a purportedly mediocre team and took it all the way to the ECF twice. The only change was a new voice. This unfortunately is our best bet to actually seeing a Cup in the next 10 years. Bill boards have consequences.

If this all fails you let it fail, like the Pens are doing right now. Because they know the road to elite players is by tanking (ie DONT TRY TO IMPROVE THE TEAM by making rash decisions and selling off any remaining assets. That's exactly what Lou did). My local team the Lightning became a Cup contender when they picked Stamkos in the 2008 draft and followed that up with Hedman the following year. Pens got Malkin in 2004 and Crosby in 2005. That's how you get to the Cup. You can't trade a bunch of mediocre players for those kind of players. The time for a "proper" rebuild is long gone when Lou decided to keep most of the roster intact. Lou did not "run it all back" as you claim he did, in fact he kept most of the team's core intact. Running it all back means starting from scratch and building something completely new.

I readily admit that blowing it up will result in a much worse team in the short and probably medium term, and no, I have no expectation of turning mediocre players into something better. That's what a fire sale is, selling off damaged goods for whatever you can get. The process of unwinding the damage that Lou has done will be painful and will take time, that is the price that has to be paid for gross mismanagement, but continuing to wait in the vain hope of some miracle with this group is foolhardy and will only prolong that wait.

 

[Rehabguy]

Can anyone give examples of any team that went to conference or Stanley cup finals and then immediately started a rebuild the following year?

I think that following that anticlimactic failure to advance past the ECF should have prompted Lou to start the retooling then if at the very least the following year when he fired Trotz. That is the time when our trade chips held their most value. To do so now is selling low. I think most of us would agree that this team did not have the horses to go all the way following the 2nd ECF loss. Also the new voice should have been Roy 3 years ago and not a worse version of Trotz with Lambert. Too many missed opportunities due to poor management.

 

[Green]

The problem with Lou is that he sold the farm to bring in middling type players. Pageau and Horvat are 2 such players. I appreciate what both of them bring to the table but they were not worth the assets we gave up for them. Romanov alone for a first rounder would have been questionable as well if it weren’t for the promise we see in George. There is not enough of a farm system to actually do a proper rebuild because instead of rebuilding the roster when Lou took it over he tried to enhance it with grinders who would do well under Trotz archaic system and over paid for them in the process.

If any Islander fan hopes to have any chance to see a cup in the next decade we almost HAVE to go with the current lineup and take their chances because we have nothing to give without severely weakening an already needy line up. The only proper way to perform a proper rebuild is to actually grow old and actually suck for many years rather than doing this half baked patch job that will end up bringing back mediocrity in return further perpetuating the dilemma. We do not have any assets to bring back the type of players some are looking for.

As for the age issue with the Islanders they are on the wrong side of the bell curve but that curve can be deceiving. Most of the impactful players on this team if properly coached are still in their prime. The team is also homogeneous enough in age that it is not any particular 1 or 2 impact players that skewing the age curve. We are not like the Pens whose 2 star players are 37 and 38 years old. Varlamov is the teams oldest player and Martin our second. Martin does not see enough ice time to affect the teams success or lack of. Also luck will have it that the hockey gods gifted us the likes of Eiserman, Tsyplakov, and George whose presence in the lineup can skew the teams age at or below the median age in the NHL which is now over 28 years of age. Most importantly these can be impact players.

So I say ride this group for as long as they can and hope like the Panthers one of these years in the future they win a Cup or just let them continue to grow old, suck really bad. Rack up a number of top picks and then build your team of the future. Trading mediocrity for mediocrity will get this team nowhere.

If the Islanders completely gut the roster and sell everything to the highest bidder we may see some signs of life in about 3-4 years and maybe in about 5 years we might have some hope of making the playoffs again and winning a cup in the years after that, 1 thing I do know is this current squad has almost no chance of winning a cup and dragging out this below average roster ensures we will never see a cup in the next 10-15 years as by the time we are forced to rebuild our assets will be worth little and than we will start a long and miserable re-build

 

[Throttle]

Can anyone give examples of any team that went to conference or Stanley cup finals and then immediately started a rebuild the following year?

There’s literally none. No owner is going to slam on the brakes of (a) revenue and (b) getting close to winning.

The isles fan narrative is that the Isles should have rebuilt once JT left, which just compounds everything from there. The positives along the way are disregarded. It’s just focused on the negative and diminishing any positive.

 

[Torrey Redux]

Can anyone give examples of any team that went to conference or Stanley cup finals and then immediately started a rebuild the following year?

Your point is irrelevant. Treating the pandemic years as business as usual and ignoring their impact and influence on outcomes is absurd. That is why Lou's tenure is absurd and is the reason we are where we are. @MJF put it perfectly the other day, "Lou has been trying to win the 2021 Stanley Cup for four years".

 

[Rehabguy]

I readily admit that blowing it up will result in a much worse team in the short and probably medium term, and no, I have no expectation of turning mediocre players into something better. That's what a fire sale is, selling off damaged goods for whatever you can get. The process of unwinding the damage that Lou has done will be painful and will take time, that is the price that has to be paid for gross mismanagement, but continuing to wait in the vain hope of some miracle with this group is foolhardy and will only prolong that wait.

Unwinding the damage Lou has done which is mostly on the resource management side of things will take time. Also finding the players that complement Roy's style of play will also take time. One of the biggest mistakes Lou made was retooling this team with grinders that theoretically would have flourished under Trotz system and then doing a 180 and going with a coach who is the exact opposite and wants defense through offense.

Changes clearly need to be made to the lineup but I think the Isles need to continue with a retool rather than a rebuild given the present situation that they are in. Doing a fire sale with the understanding that the team will be much worse is one way to do it with young inexperienced players across the line up, but the same thing can be done by just letting the team age gracefully and get the same results with a softer blow for the fans to experience. The team has to remain somewhat competitive during the entire process. Theres no way this fan base can survive what the Buffalo Sabres have been trying to do all these years. The team might as well put a "for sale" sign outside of UBS. Long Island is not a sports town. If the team is performing poorly those seats are going to be empty.

We have some younger players in the farm system that can be grade A impact players. If they play their cards right and keep the impact players who will still be in their prime for the next 4-5 years or so and surround those players with a few good draft picks they may be able to build a competitive team then conceivably make a solid Cup run.

 

[Rehabguy]

If the Islanders completely gut the roster and sell everything to the highest bidder we may see some signs of life in about 3-4 years and maybe in about 5 years we might have some hope of making the playoffs again and winning a cup in the years after that, 1 thing I do know is this current squad has almost no chance of winning a cup and dragging out this below average roster ensures we will never see a cup in the next 10-15 years as by the time we are forced to rebuild our assets will be worth little and than we will start a long and miserable re-build

I think that's a lot of wishful thinking. Even teams with the luck to acquire elite talent in the draft such as Buffalo or Edmonton who have tried the same formula haven't had much success. You go with what you know and make careful measured steps to improve a team that is in the situation the Islanders are currently in. Either they will succeed or eventually age to the point that a tank is inevitable. The Pens are approaching this the right way for example. They are currently in tank mode but have kept whatever talent they have to remain somewhat entertaining for their fans. Meanwhile their plan is to stockpile high draft picks over the next few years.

Any GM for the New York Islanders will always have to build a competitive team primarily through the draft much like Snow did because those fancy smancy elite players everyone is pining for ain't coming here by choice. I'm trying to be a realist here. The Islanders need to tank for high draft picks but they need to hold onto whatever relatively young talent they have in players such as Barzal and Dobson and let things more or less play out. The only way I see the Islanders doing this is to let our older vets lead us to the tank. A proper tank (ie rebuild) takes time. In the meanwhile try to enjoy the ride.