TV: Game of Thrones | Season 8 (Final) | Part XIII -TV talk ONLY -NO Books, Spoilers, NO LEAKS

[Emperoreddy]

The only happy ending for the government of Westros is if they sign their version of a Magna Carta.

The message overall seems to be anti-monarchy and anti-war

 

[NyQuil]

The only happy ending for the government of Westros is if they sign their version of a Magna Carta.

The message overall seems to be anti-monarchy and anti-war

I’m not sure if that theme has really resonated that strongly.

Daenerys has mentioned it but she is herself an autocrat.

The only character who is representative of that theme is Varys.

Jon keeps saying he doesn’t want to be a king but that is only making him a more ideal monarch in the eyes of Varys and perhaps Tyrion.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I’m not sure if that theme has really resonated that strongly.

Daenerys has mentioned it but she is herself an autocrat.

The only one who is representative of that theme is Varys.

It’s represented by how poorly every monarch or wannabe monarch rules.

They are either full autocrats, or extremely flimsy and easy to manipulate. Or they die young

 

[NyQuil]

It’s represented by how poorly every monarch or wannabe monarch rules.

They are either full autocrats, or extremely flimsy and easy to manipulate. Or they die young

Yeah but is the message that absolute monarchy is bad or simply that the wrong monarch has been in charge?

Historically, monarch has one of the worst life expectancies of any profession.

To die like a king: new study says it's most dangerous job in history

I guess I don’t feel like there’s some underlying moral of the story.

Chaos often followed succession until someone emerges to impose a new order.

 

[discostu]

Yeah but is the message that absolute monarchy is bad or simply that the wrong monarch has been in charge?

Historically, monarch has one of the worst life expectancies of any profession.

To die like a king: new study says it's most dangerous job in history

I guess I don’t feel like there’s some underlying moral of the story.

Chaos often followed succession until someone emerges to impose a new order.

For a story this large and epic, I think it should have something broader to say about leadership, but I fear you are right, and it'll focus on the particular character narratives, but not speak to the broader issue.

We'll see how the show handles it. I think the books has more room to deal with the nuance and themes, some we may get more from there.

 

[Blender]

It’s represented by how poorly every monarch or wannabe monarch rules.

They are either full autocrats, or extremely flimsy and easy to manipulate. Or they die young

Hereditary monarchies and aristocracies, especially primogeniture ones which Westeros is entirely ruled by from top to bottom, are horrible ways to select political leaders. History has proven this time and again, and as someone who has studied and appreciates history, I am not surprised GRRM has provided a wide range of terrible examples in the story.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Hereditary monarchies and aristocracies, especially primogeniture ones which Westeros is entirely ruled by from top to bottom, are horrible ways to select political leaders. History has proven this time and again, and as someone who has studied and appreciates history, I am not surprised GRRM has provided a wide range of terrible examples in the story.

Has their been one good monarch on this show? Actually on the show. Not mentioned in history.

Also was Balon Greyjoy the worst monarch on the show?

 

[Blender]

Has their been one good monarch on this show? Actually on the show. Not mentioned in history.

Also was Balon Greyjoy the worst monarch on the show?

Monarch? I would say no. Jon might have been the closest thing depending on the criteria, as he is a good person who cares a lot about what is right and is happy to delegate tasks to other capable people, but he wasn't King for very long, so tough to say how that would have worked long term.

Balon and Joffrey are probably the two worst.

 

[Emperoreddy]

Monarch? I would say no. Jon might have been the closest thing depending on the criteria, as he is a good person who cares a lot about what is right and is happy to delegate tasks to other capable people, but he wasn't King for very long, so tough to say how that would have worked long term.

Balon and Joffrey are probably the two worst.

Varys pretty much pointed out Jon’s fatal flaw as a leader. He can be too heavily influenced. Why he doesn’t think marrying them would work. Dany would just bend him over.

Plus he tends to do stupid brave things that get you killed before you can father an heir.

 

[Blender]

Varys pretty much pointed out Jon’s fatal flaw as a leader. He can be too heavily influenced. Why he doesn’t think marrying them would work. Dany would just bend him over.

Plus he tends to do stupid brave things that get you killed before you can father an heir.

I agree, he definitely has flaws as a leader and the big one is that he leads from the front and that often gets you killed.

I don't think Varys' fear was that he would be influenced though, it's that he would be brushed aside by Daenerys so that she was free to do whatever she wanted and he would quietly stand by while it happens. I'm not convinced that is an accurate assessment of Jon's character though, he's been a man of action for years and even died for what he saw as an injustice.

 

[Juicy Pop]

It’s represented by how poorly every monarch or wannabe monarch rules.

They are either full autocrats, or extremely flimsy and easy to manipulate. Or they die young

If anything I think it's meant to condemn the moral, merciful approach.

In the context of this story, I think Cersei proves that public opinion counts for absolutely nothing as long as you show no mercy and scour the field of potential dissidents. In contrast, Dany has suffered consistent setbacks at the advice of her counsel to employ a 'light touch' and to ignore her base instincts to ruthlessly abuse her advantages. I really cannot see how Dany wouldn't have been better served by burning the Red Keep as soon as she was set up in Dragonstone.

 

[Speyer]

A lot of the criticism of this last season could have been solved if HBO just invested some more money for an additional season (or at least a full season 8). Sure the overall quality of the writing would still not be as good as season 1, but at least it would't feel so rushed. I mean they basically handeled the conclusion of the arguably most important storyline of the show in one episode and now Dany is going from rational to crazy in one episode too. How could HBO be so cheap, this is the biggest TV show in the world and they are writing out Ghost because of budget concerns. This will hurt the overall legacy of the show and with that the possible longterm DVD/Blueray sales.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I think Tommen could have potentially been a good king with the right team in place. That's the rub though, as many of the characters that are "noble" tend to be naive and highly susceptible to those around them. In Tommen's case he'd have to deal with Cersei, Tywin (if he would have survived), Margaery Tyrell, Olenna, etc. A ton of variables.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

A lot of the criticism of this last season could have been solved if HBO just invested some more money for an additional season (or at least a full season 8). Sure the overall quality of the writing would still not be as good as season 1, but at least it would't feel so rushed. I mean they basically handeled the conclusion of the arguably most important storyline of the show in one episode and now Dany is going from rational to crazy in one episode too. How could HBO be so cheap, this is the biggest TV show in the world and they are writing out Ghost because of budget concerns. This will hurt the overall legacy of the show and with that the possible longterm DVD/Blueray sales.

Problem with that is its known that many of the actors/actresses have wanted to move on

So there is no guarantee that they would sign on for more GOT

And Dany has plenty of times irrational thinking so this isn't a one episode thing

And sorry but no one cares about Ghost. HBO has spent more then enough $/Time on this series so this bashing HBO makes no sense

And the show is more popular then ever and DVD/Bluray sales as well as legacy of show will be just fine

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

There’s a great thread by @Dsilvermint on twitter about plotters vs. Pantsers that really sums up why I think the series has gone the way that it has.

Basically that George is a ‘pantser’, I.e he wrote by the seat of his pants. This allowed him tobuild up characters and write a more character driven story. They fly by the seat of their pants and can end up with a meandering story that is tough to bring it together, but it feels very real and everything happens because of the choices characters make, it is not plotted out.

D&D have had to be ‘plotters’ where they have an outline plotted out and an ending where they have to get to, and they plot out the main events that take them to their ending. They essentially work backwards from their ending, this leads to a very different looking narrative than the part of the show that was ‘pantsed’.

I didn’t do the best job of explaining it so people should go read it, I’m not sure how to link things to twitter though and am on my phone.

 

[Blender]

There’s a great thread by @Dsilvermint on twitter about plotters vs. Pantsers that really sums up why I think the series has gone the way that it has.

Basically that George is a ‘pantser’, I.e he wrote by the seat of his pants. This allowed him tobuild up characters and write a more character driven story. They fly by the seat of their pants and can end up with a meandering story that is tough to bring it together, but it feels very real and everything happens because of the choices characters make, it is not plotted out.

D&D have had to be ‘plotters’ where they have an outline plotted out and an ending where they have to get to, and they plot out the main events that take them to their ending. They essentially work backwards from their ending, this leads to a very different looking narrative than the part of the show that was ‘pantsed’.

I didn’t do the best job of explaining it so people should go read it, I’m not sure how to link things to twitter though and am on my phone.

 

[discostu]

It's funny to consider, but Robert Baratheon was the most successful king. He was complacent, and let the schemers have a lot of influence, but, he did what was necessary to keep the kingdom together. He built his alliance with the Lannisters whenever it was needed. He's swiftly addressed the Greyjoy rebellion.

The lack of attention caught up to him, but, it says something that people waited until he's died before they attempted the more blatant power grabs.

Now, when your best leader is a fat drunk who's burying the kingdom in debt, it doesn't bode well.

 

[Speyer]

Problem with that is its known that many of the actors/actresses have wanted to move on

So there is no guarantee that they would sign on for more GOT

And Dany has plenty of times irrational thinking so this isn't a one episode thing

And sorry but no one cares about Ghost. HBO has spent more then enough $/Time on this series so this bashing HBO makes no sense

And the show is more popular then ever and DVD/Bluray sales as well as legacy of show will be just fine

As for Dany: True but never on the level of the mad king, wich seems to be where the writers are going. Thats still a very abrubt transformation.

On Ghost: Maybe not all watchers care about him but many fans found it very annoying how he was written out of the show because HBO was to cheap for a few more CGI scenes with him. There was definitley a little bit of fanbacklash because of that decision. I just pointed it out as one of many examples what is wrong with the show anyway. Got makes huge profits and will continue to do so and the HBO subscription isn't exactly cheap, so I think they owe it to the subscribers to put the most possible effort into it.

As for the Actors: Well at least they could have done a full 10 episode season, i mean they had two years to film season 8, there is no way they couldn't have done 10 episodes with a few overly long ones in that timeframe.

I think a week last season will definitley hurt longtime sales and reputation unless the spinoffs are super sucessfull. In my opinion got is still super sucessful because its an event series that ervyone talks about and not becausy of its quality, dissapointed fans are not gonna jump of the wagon a few episodes shy of the finale. I don't think however it will go down hin history as one of the best tv shows of all time; I could name several better shows from HBO alone...

 

[Emperoreddy]

I think Tommen could have potentially been a good king with the right team in place. That's the rub though, as many of the characters that are "noble" tend to be naive and highly susceptible to those around them. In Tommen's case he'd have to deal with Cersei, Tywin (if he would have survived), Margaery Tyrell, Olenna, etc. A ton of variables.

Problem is Tommen was easily manipulated.

 

[chicagoskycam]

As for Dany: True but never on the level of the mad king, wich seems to be where the writers are going. Thats still a very abrubt transformation.

On Ghost: Maybe not all watchers care about him but many fans found it very annoying how he was written out of the show because HBO was to cheap for a few more CGI scenes with him. There was definitley a little bit of fanbacklash because of that decision. I just pointed it out as one of many examples what is wrong with the show anyway. Got makes huge profits and will continue to do so and the HBO subscription isn't exactly cheap, so I think they owe it to the subscribers to put the most possible effort into it.

.

There is absolutely no proof of this so I don't know why it keeps getting brought up. They have two episodes to wrap up so many human characters, who gives a shit about Jon's dog. If it was so expensive for them they wouldn't have even bothered with the scenes last week. The CGI and cheap or lack of budget have no merit what so ever.

 

[chokei]

There’s a great thread by @Dsilvermint on twitter about plotters vs. Pantsers.

Felt the same for some time but couldn't express it. This explains it. Different approaches, different results.

Arya killing the NK is an example for this IMO.

Regarding the breaking the wheel discussion: I fear the show will not be able to give a deserving ending to this. I doubt they find the time in the remaining 2 episodes to conclude all the fighting, lead believable discussions about why to change at all and to what new system and then actually set it in place that it seems kind of stable.

What has been left out is the bottom up part in all of this. No one showed the opinions of the rest of westeros, nor the leaders nor the simple people. The north had it's opinions but it's still 7 kingdoms and not just the north & king's landing. I don't see why the leaders would forfeit some of their power without huge pressure from below.

The show better not touch this too deeply as it can only turn out unsatisfying IMO.

 

[Blender]

It's funny to consider, but Robert Baratheon was the most successful king. He was complacent, and let the schemers have a lot of influence, but, he did what was necessary to keep the kingdom together. He built his alliance with the Lannisters whenever it was needed. He's swiftly addressed the Greyjoy rebellion.

The lack of attention caught up to him, but, it says something that people waited until he's died before they attempted the more blatant power grabs.

Now, when your best leader is a fat drunk who's burying the kingdom in debt, it doesn't bode well.

Robert Baratheon was a terrible king. Jon Arryn ran and kept the kingdom together, not Robert. Despite all of Jon Arryn's efforts Robert still managed to bankrupt the crown, sow division among the major houses, and failed to bring or keep the major houses in line with the crown's interests in any way.

As for Dany: True but never on the level of the mad king, wich seems to be where the writers are going. Thats still a very abrubt transformation.

I don't think that is where the writers are going at all, she's clearly not insane nor is she being portrayed as insane. She's a ruthless, power hungry ruler who feels entitled to power based on her claimed destiny, she has always been this person, but her worst impulses have often been checked by others. What we're seeing is that the loss of her friends/allies and desperation are exposing her true colors.

 

[Lshap]

Problem is Tommen was easily manipulated.

He was mostly influenced by the promise of sex, which places him in the same tier as pretty well every leader who ever lived.

 

[Speyer]

There is absolutely no proof of this so I don't know why it keeps getting brought up. They have two episodes to wrap up so many human characters, who gives a **** about Jon's dog. If it was so expensive for them they wouldn't have even bothered with the scenes last week. The CGI and cheap or lack of budget have no merit what so ever.

Game of Thrones’ director tried to explain what happened with Ghost. It didn’t help.

 

[Emperoreddy]

He was mostly influenced by the promise of sex, which places him in the same tier as pretty well every leader who ever lived.

That is how Marg controlled him, but the High Sparrow was also able to manipulate him as wel