TV: Game of Thrones | Season 8 (Final) | Part XIII -TV talk ONLY -NO Books, Spoilers, NO LEAKS

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Rabid Ranger

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Feb 27, 2002
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I'll link it because it's a gigantic picture.

Click here.

(From this reddit thread.)

A little bit of insight from GRRM on how the writers have changed the show.


After reading that, I wouldn't be surprised if the writers cut a lot of Bran stuff because his story line wasn't overly popular.

Agreed....since all Bran is good for on the show is sitting in his chair staring into space while uttering a few cryptic lines here and there.
 

Emperoreddy

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Apr 13, 2010
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I'll link it because it's a gigantic picture.

Click here.

(From this reddit thread.)

A little bit of insight from GRRM on how the writers have changed the show.


After reading that, I wouldn't be surprised if the writers cut a lot of Bran stuff because his story line wasn't overly popular.

That is from an express article that pieces quotes together from various interviews to fit their slant.

He also said that the main characters are going to have by and large the same endings. The divergence will be with side characters (which makes sense as many of those plot threads diverged years ago)

GRRM understands TV. He understands better then anyone in here, that’s for sure. He gets that an adaptiton has to change things. Certain events and elements simply won’t work on TV. It’s sad to see your story being finished by someone else, but what else could be done? The show wasn’t going to go on hiatus to wait for him. Hell they stalled in season 5 and the season suffered for it.

The sad reality is the showrunners are really good at adapting something. We saw this with the show. Being forced to tell the story themselves has been trickier, and they simply aren’t as good at it as they are at adapting. It goes double because George himself doesn’t seem to know how to get the story into its third act. Some of his quotes about Winds of Winter are outright alarming and even he understands he may have gone overboard introducing so many new plot threads instead is starting to tie together.

Edit: with Bran I don’t think George knows what to do with him either. The number of POV Bran chapters have gone down with each book and I think he has lost interest in the White Walkers as a whole a long time ago.
 

Vex

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Apr 23, 2019
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Good lord.......the irony.

We're not the ones personally insulting others' taste or intelligence.

The worst thing I've said is some of the criticisms are silly and folks focus on "plot holes" way too much. We've been called sheep, don't know what bad writing is, popcorn eaters, and many other things. In this thread and the last.

A person's opinion on a show can't be wrong.
 

bdub24

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We're not the ones personally insulting others' taste or intelligence.

The worst thing I've said is some of the criticisms are silly and folks focus on "plot holes" way too much. We've been called sheep, don't know what bad writing is, popcorn eaters, and many other things. In this thread and the last.

A person's opinion on a show can't be wrong.
I love movie popcorn. I know it isn't butter and I don't care.
 
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NyQuil

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Well, I just caught up.

-I really enjoyed the scenes with Varys and Tyrion. Conleth Hill is such a great actor that we've been missing his gravitas in some time thanks to all of the zombie slaying and dragon burning. We lost Charles Dance to Tyrion, we lost Conleth Hill to the Hollywood finish. Meanwhile, Peter Dinklage did a serviceable job of working us through the episode.

-Overall, most of the performances in this episode were pretty good. Sansa and the Hound. Jaimie and Brienne. Bronn and the Lannisters.

-I've read criticism of Brienne but I thought her emotions were legitimate. She's spent her entire life hiding them away to avoid ridicule, she finally lets her guard down for Jaime and he ultimately betrays her. I don't think she was weak at all in this episode. After one night? She's been in love with Jaime for ages.

-The longer the series goes, the weaker Kit Harrington becomes as an actor. I just don't believe him as a king and I'm not really sure why people follow him. His facial expression is what I would call "constipated" most of the time and his speech over the fallen fell short IMO. The counter-argument being that Varys may approve of him because he does not conduct himself as a king. Maybe that's a fair point.

-The ending sequence with Cersei and Daenerys was well done. Both actresses do a tremendous job of conveying both arrogance and vulnerability in equal parts. It makes them very human but undeniably royal.

-A lot of people's gripes are not really the result of bad tactics or storylines but really more about a lack of time to build up the appropriate preparation for particular scenes. As others have said, the teleportation machine is in full effect and everything is insanely rushed.

-The Bronn scene was a nice little scene but he basically pops in out of nowhere and then disappears again.

-Yes, the navy just shows up and they miss it, but come on, navies were accidentally running into each other as recently as World War 2. Yes, they got lucky with those first few shots of the giant crossbows but luck happens. I get that the Targaryens managed to take Westeros with 3 dragons but they also had three dragon riders who knew what they were doing - unlike Daenerys who is a bit new to the whole aerial combat concept.

-There's two dozen plot lines that had to be resolved in six episodes this year. Instead of just ignoring some, they are methodically going through each one as fast as they can and it has lost the entire style of the series. It's disappointing but not entirely unexpected.

-Overall it was a serviceable episode that did what needed to be done post-Winterfell, and the actors got to do something aside from running around in blurry zombie combat.
 
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NyQuil

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Do you folks think Bran will warg into the final dragon? That was a popular theory back in the day.

I don't see Bran's interest in any of the internal politics of the realm anymore.

I think that was the point of his conversation with Tyrion in this episode.

He's a historian who explores history. Not someone who makes new events happen.
 
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NyQuil

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I don’t think a lot of casual fans are prepared for the reality that their favorite character will not live happily ever after as King or Queen.

My Sansa theory is looking pretty good.

Or Daenerys sans Jon Snow. That's a pretty good contender too.

I'd be pretty surprised if it's Jon on the Iron Throne but I suppose it's possible. Aside from Tyrion, Jon seems to be GRRM's favorite.
 

Do Make Say Think

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At the end of the day, the last seasons of GoT really encapsulate what I hate about 90% of TV shows when compared to the earlier ones.

TV show writers are, generally speaking, awful at writting stories. They are good at writting for TV, that's their job. Their job is to give execs what they want, nothing else.
 

NyQuil

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Ultimately I think both sides have cases to be made, but they are arguing past each other.

-The quality of the show HAS gone downhill. I don't blame anyone in particular - it could be GRRM, it could be D&D, or it could be just too sprawling to resolve appropriately in the time available.

-The dialogue IS forced because every conversation has a specific key objective and they have to get there and move on as fast as possible. The subtlety of someone like Olenna Tyrell is long gone.

-A lot of people ARE overly critical because of their fanboy/girl relationships with their favourite characters.

-A lot of people ARE spending way too much time analyzing medieval tactics and technology at this point. We're in the endgame here - there's no time to spend 20-30 minutes lining people up and having these big setpiece battles between rival armies in historically accurate fashion. Again, I can understand some frustrations given the earlier battles in the series but everything about this season is about resolution within the time available.

-Personally, I don't think anyone here would really do much better. And I know I'll get tons of abuse because it would be SO SIMPLE to fix Game of Thrones but in reality, every decision you make just creates another group of people who hate that decision. It's death by a thousand cuts.
 
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NyQuil

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With Daenerys, it's a bit interesting, because this episode is really shaving down the possibilities:

1. She's been through the emotional wringer - she's lost two of her dragons, her best friend and advisor and her protector and bodyguard. This is further reinforced with the scene in the dining hall which highlighted her isolation from the Northerners and by proxy Westeros.

2. She's found out that her entire reason for being, the destiny complex that has essentially kept her going through innumerable challenges across the sea, the death of her family, of her brother, her husband, to unite the Seven Kingdoms, is technically not her legal right.

So the episode has gone out of its way to essentially paint her as a complementary figure to Cersei, as a tyrant, who is willing to do anything for the throne. To force her love to keep a secret from his family.

Either:

(a) With rather clumsy foreshadowing, she's determined to burn the city to the ground in revenge and destroy Cersei, possibly requiring some former friend or lover to put her down to save thousands of people.

OR

(b) That despite everything, despite what she's been put through by Cersei and others, she still manages to stay true to her original purpose of not being a tyrant. That she sacrifices herself to save the people or some such.

In either case, however, I don't see her on the Iron Throne.

Unfortunately, this development has not been slow, but rather rapid, over the course of one or (maybe?) two episodes. Again, I think the victim of expediency due to time constraints but you do have to acknowledge that the past few weeks have been pretty overwhelming for anyone.
 
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Richard

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George R. R. Martin fallen into the ideal situation that any writer would dream of-he gets to try out an ending via the HBO show, take everyone's criticism and/or praise, and rework and tweak his ending to please the largest audience possible. How can he screw this up? He can take his source material, see what works and what doesn't (factor in the different medium) and write a good ending which should satisfy most.

On the other hand, the sole overarching problem for Game of Thrones since season five has been pacing. That's it. The writers have been taking shortcuts for the last three seasons. Where it seems like characters got to where they were going organically in the first four seasons they now seem to appear solely to move forward the plot. This is a result of pacing.

The TV show really needed ten quality seasons to fully tell this story, but you can tell that all involved just don't have the resources; actors are getting more in demand, sets are ballooning, the story's scope has expanded in multiple directions.

Of course the ending is going to seem rushed. You're taking three seasons of storyline and condensing it to one season. Take a look at HBO's Rome series for an example. Season 1 is masterly and season 2 is barely adequate because of the pacing.
 
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discostu

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Ultimately I think both sides have cases to be made, but they are arguing past each other.

-The quality of the show HAS gone downhill. I don't blame anyone in particular - it could be GRRM, it could be D&D, or it could be just too sprawling to resolve appropriately in the time available.

-The dialogue IS forced because every conversation has a specific key objective and they have to get there and move on as fast as possible. The subtlety of someone like Olenna Tyrell is long gone.

-A lot of people ARE overly critical because of their fanboy/girl relationships with their favourite characters.

-A lot of people ARE spending way too much time analyzing medieval tactics and technology at this point. We're in the endgame here - there's no time to spend 20-30 minutes lining people up and having these big setpiece battles between rival armies in historically accurate fashion. Again, I can understand some frustrations given the earlier battles in the series but everything about this season is about resolution within the time available.

-Personally, I don't think anyone here would really do much better. And I know I'll get tons of abuse because it would be SO SIMPLE to fix Game of Thrones but in reality, every decision you make just creates another group of people who hate that decision. It's death by a thousand cuts.

This captures pretty much all of my thoughts. Coming to the acceptance that the show will not end as strongly as it started is a challenge, but pretty key to enjoying the final episodes.
 
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ThePhoenixx

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Scenario #1 Daenerys becomes Queen. We discussed it. It is possible.

Scenario #2:
Jon is on the throne. The brooding King.

The only way he is made King is if the woman he loves is dead and then there is a good chance it is because he told Sansa his secret. That should ruin him. He doesn't know what it takes to run anything anyway. He's a general, if that...

So far he is really just a very hot-headed honest guy who is good at swinging swords and inspiring people.

He will end up a drunk just like the last drunk King. I cannot see this scenario. He'll just walk away. Jon Snow will not be King unless Daenerys is still alive...

Which brings us to Scenario3: Jon and Dany share the throne.

This is the happiness ending. We will see.

I'm hoping not to see scenario 4.
 

The Macho King

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Scenario #1 Daenerys becomes Queen. We discussed it. It is possible.

Scenario #2:
Jon is on the throne. The brooding King.

The only way he is made King is if the woman he loves is dead and then there is a good chance it is because he told Sansa his secret. That should ruin him. He doesn't know what it takes to run anything anyway. He's a general, if that...

So far he is really just a very hot-headed honest guy who is good at swinging swords and inspiring people.

He will end up a drunk just like the last drunk King. I cannot see this scenario. He'll just walk away. Jon Snow will not be King unless Daenerys is still alive...

Which brings us to Scenario3: Jon and Dany share the throne.

This is the happiness ending. We will see.

I'm hoping not to see scenario 4.
1000 bucks it's none of those scenarios.
 
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McDNicks17

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Jul 1, 2010
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The only reasonable ending is that Arya doomed everyone by killing the Night King.

Without winter, climate change spirals out of control and the planet becomes uninhabitable in 100 years.

The final scene is Bran telling everyone in his emotionless way that the wars meant nothing and they're all going to die.

Fin.
 

Viggo Mortensen

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Just be careful out there with people going with their theories for the final 2 eps. For some reason a guy on 4Chan and Reddit leaked some key plot points for ep4-5-6 before last week's ep and he was spot on for ep4. Which leads people to believe his ep5 and 6 key plot points are going to be true.
 
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RandV

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It's not like they've been constrained in any way. It's an incredibly popular show and they were given the ending how George Martin saw it. They decided to split the last season into 2 seasons. If they needed more time to untangle things they likely would have gotten it as well.

I'm not sure that's a defense of the writers. So they can't adapt and resolve the material on their own? Lets remember they made a lot of decisions on what to cut and what to include from characters to story-arcs. They were doing relatively well for most of the show.

I haven't read the books so I can't comment on where they were headed. It seems like George Martin won't finish them and is fine to have the TV series stand as ending.

I think a lot of people are either overthinking it or jumping to conclusions when there's nothing actually there.

Martin's creative process is intuitive and adhoc. The creative inspiration for the whole damn series came from him imagining the scene of the Stark family finding a litter of dire wolves in the woods. It was initially intended to be a trilogy, but what he intended to be book 1 became the first 3 books (I believe) and the planned series grew to 6 books. After book 3 he intended there to be a 5 year gap before starting book 4 - with Jon/Dany/Arya/Sansa/etc getting 5 years to grow 'off screen' in their respective positions, but he dropped that idea and just kept writing right from where things left off in book 4. Then book 4 was getting way too big so he cut out half the characters, published book 4 focusing only on Kings Landing/Dorne/Iron Islands, and at the end of it wrote a note that went something like:

'But where are Jon/Dany/Tyrion/etc? Don't worry, thinks just got too big and I had to split them up but it's all been mostly written and book 5 with them will be out shortly.

Except book 5 never came out 'shortly' after, he got stuck on how to resolve the story in Mereen and the 'mostly finished' book 5 took 6 years to come out. At some point in his blog he got fed up with responses to his updates saying it was like being in school and having to explain to the teacher why your homework wasn't done, so he started a zero updates/it's done 10 or so years ago and has stuck with it since. Also people call him a slow writer, which may be the case, but I believe he's said that he's got a collection of something like 2000 chapters stashed away that he's written over the years but never ended up actually using.

So overall there's two things I take out of this.

1. The creative process that built this wonderful series when combined with his advancing age is unfortunately highly counter inductive to him actually finish the series. It's unfortunate but I've never really blamed him for it, if his writing process is intuitive then it's not something you can just force out.

2. If the books should actually be completed how they relate to the current show ending is pretty irrelevant. Martin may have giving D&D some pointers on how he plans to end the series but as I pointed out above his 'plans' (which would be a few years old at this point) are subject to frequent changes and can be pretty meaningless. Even if some final bullet points do remain the same the process of how we get there will be significantly different as the stories from written works are much more richly detailed than on screen and GRRM is a far better writer than D&D. Martin also understands the TV business, TV writing paid his bills before he got back into novel writing, so I don't think there's any hard feelings anywhere.
 
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Don'tcry4mejanhrdina

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There are folks who conflate "criticism" with "personally insulting the showrunners and nitpicking the smallest, most mundane aspects of television in general."

It also doesn't help that whenever the few of us that are enjoying this final season "defend" something about it, we get insulted in some fashion subtly or otherwise.

This show, like every other show, has a cavalcade of problems. I was seething at the Hound/Sansa exhange. I don't like how Brienne became a sad housewife after one night with Jaime. They tore her down to prop up Jaime and finish his character arc. Missandei was killed unceremoniously despite being one of two people of color on the show. The only queer character "took back the Iron Islands" and has disappeared entirely in Yara. These are things I don't like about the show. Roll your eyes if you want. It's more impactful to me than poor battle strategy.

I try to focus on the good. There's a lot of good, in my opinion. A lot of folks want to say they are doing good and being critical, but they're really just poisoning the well. The discourse is so toxic.

While the show certainly deserves criticism, who cares that Missandei is a person of colour and Yara is a lesbian? What does that have to do with anything? Does a medieval fantasy show have to follow 2019's inclusion standards? If so, Jon should be a full-figured black trans-woman who don't need no man or cis-gender woman by her side to be the real Queen of the Seven Kingdoms!
 
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ThePhoenixx

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1000 bucks it's none of those scenarios.

Scenario #4 has Arya running around killing everyone in their way and Sansa then as Queen. This is possible if Daenerys dies in battle and Jon says no... or Jon is dead.

Or, perhaps she marries the newly titled Gendry and manipulates him to gain control of the throne. That would be easy. Maybe a Tyrion whom she can send off on his drunken ways and then rule in his stead.

Now that you think of it, I guess that wouldn't be so bad. Then Arya wouldn't have to kill everyone left.
 
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Just be careful out there with people going with their theories for the final 2 eps. For some reason a guy on 4Chan and Reddit leaked some key plot points for ep4-5-6 before last week's ep and he was spot on for ep4. Which leads people to believe his ep5 and 6 key plot points are going to be true.

I'm definitely going to avoid it, but for those that can't, worth bearing in mind that these recaps, even when they're 100% accurate, often do a poor job of painting the full picture. Was looking at Avengers spoilers from a month ago last night and despite being accurate people hated the hell out of them. A lot of those opinions then changed once they actually saw it.
 
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