TV: Game of Thrones | Season 8 (Final) | Part XIII -TV talk ONLY -NO Books, Spoilers, NO LEAKS

[David Dennison]

The mere implication that Mad Queen Dany was happening pissed Dany fans. If they go through with it the reaction will worse.

I don’t think a lot of casual fans are prepared for the reality that their favorite character will not live happily ever after as King or Queen.

Maybe focus on the story, and not peoples reaction to the story. f*** this attitude that good fans must like everything that is shoved down our throats. Thats a fanboy, and fanboys are f***ing annoying.

And Dany going loony has been foreshadowed terribly (if that in fact happens).

 

[Knave]

I 100% agree with this.

People have gotten so particular, looking for ‘lazy writing’, ‘plot holes’ and the like in every show. Nobody seems to be able to enjoy shows without going too deep into it.

No show is going to have perfect writing , it’s impossible. If you are constantly looking for something to be not perfect you will always find it.

This isn't a mistake here or a Starbucks coffee left in a scene. This is about their complete inability to pace the show in the later seasons or close it out. It goes from the writers to the directors to the producers. They f***ed this up big time. These aren't plot holes, they're plot craters.

I was never rooting for any particular character to win, all I was hoping for was the same deliberate character growth/decisions and wrapping up of storylines and they haven't delivered.

It's easy to forgive the early seasons where characters travel around the map fast or slow to develop the story. Whatever. Those are plotholes where characters show up and you're not entirely sure how. But how do half a dozen people forget about an entire fleet of ships? How does that fleet of ships know where to be with the right weaponry to shoot down a dragon? How do they spot the dragons, line up shots, hit every single shot and do it all before being spotted? How do they destroy another fleet no problem? It's ridiculous. Am I watching Game of Thrones or the A-Team which is deliberately exaggerated and comedic? It doesn't help Euron comes across like some hormonal teenager struggling through an Emo phase.

This is like How I Met Your Mother or Lost only worse because Game of Thrones had a clear outline. I think Game of Thrones is better than those two shows but it suffers the same obvious problem: the writers can't pace for shit. But the writers on those first two shows have an excuse, GoT's writers don't.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

This isn't a mistake here or a Starbucks coffee left in a scene. This is about their complete inability to pace the show in the later seasons or close it out. It goes from the writers to the directors to the producers. They ****ed this up big time. These aren't plot holes, they're plot craters.

I was never rooting for any particular character to win, all I was hoping for was the same deliberate character growth/decisions and wrapping up of storylines and they haven't delivered.

It's easy to forgive the early seasons where characters travel around the map fast or slow to develop the story. Whatever. Those are plotholes where characters show up and you're not entirely sure how. But how do half a dozen people forget about an entire fleet of ships? How does that fleet of ships know where to be with the right weaponry to shoot down a dragon? How do they spot the dragons, line up shots, hit every single shot and do it all before being spotted? How do they destroy another fleet no problem? It's ridiculous. Am I watching Game of Thrones or the A-Team which is deliberately exaggerated and comedic? It doesn't help Euron comes across like some hormonal teenager struggling through an Emo phase.

This is like How I Met Your Mother or Lost only worse because Game of Thrones had a clear outline. I think Game of Thrones is better than those two shows but it suffers the same obvious problem: the writers can't pace for ****. But the writers on those first two shows have an excuse, GoT's writers don't.

Yeah, it feels like we're racing to an ending no one wants. Is that how it will end in the books? Maybe, but we have (potentially) two more complete books of material to get through to sort that out. It sure feels like they're cheapening the journey on the show though.

 

[Osprey]

I think the rise of people taking things like Cinemasins 100% seriously has made folks more nitpicky.

Plus we are currently in the middle of an outrage culture movement and an anti-fan thing (people being proud of the fact they don’t like something that is popular.)

The internet is a weird place, but I do think we are losing the ability to just sit back and enjoy entertainment warts and all.

There should be a middle ground, but I rarely see it. Most fanbases seem to want to be miserable. The Marvel community is one of the few that don’t seem to lose their minds like this.

I think that you rarely see a middle ground because you choose to not see it, to be honest. You're on one extreme and you seem to take those who don't see things your way as being on the other extreme. You characterize people who have criticisms as being "miserable" and upset over "head canon." When people have a problem with the show, you try to turn it into a problem with them. You seem fixated on judging the people who judge the show.

You mention that the Marvel community is different. Why do you think that that fan base isn't very critical? Is it because those fans are just more level headed? That doesn't make sense, since they're not a distinct group of people. Most are fans of lots of other things. I bet that a lot of fans of GoT are also fans of Marvel, so why is it that the same people are highly critical of one and not the other? Isn't the simplest explanation that the content of one has been consistently meeting expectations and the content of the other has been falling short? Do you not think that Marvel fans would sour and get very loud and critical if the quality of that universe were to decline?

Another example is Star Trek Discovery and The Orville. They both cater to the same fan base (Star Trek fans), so why is it that so many people hate one and love the other? Is it just because they're fickle or is it because one has good writing and gives them what they want out of Star Trek and the other doesn't? Another example is The Simpsons. The same fan base that adored the show for over a decade has been trashing it for over a decade. Did the fans change and simply lose their "ability to just sit back and enjoy entertainment" or did the quality of the show change? I could go on.

It's perfectly fine if you disagree with people who think that the writing on this show has gone downhill, but the way that you continually dismiss it by flipping it around into criticism of the fans and commentary on society is as misguided and tiresome as the few actual rants, to be honest. Between the extremes of those criticizing everything and those defending everything, there's a lot of "middle ground" that still enjoy the show but also feel that it's slipped, and that sentiment doesn't deserve to be dismissed so that someone can weave a narrative about how fickle and miserable the fan base is, IMO.

 

[MadDevil]

Yeah, it feels like we're racing to an ending no one wants. Is that how it will end in the books? Maybe, but we have (potentially) two more complete books of material to get through to sort that out. It sure feels like they're cheapening the journey on the show though.

I do kind of get the feeling these last two seasons that D & D just want to get to the end and move on.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I do kind of get the feeling these last two seasons that D & D just want to get to the end and move on.

Does feel that way, a bit. There definitely might be some more real-world factors that aren't publicly known but on the surface making the last two seasons be 13 episodes combined seems like it wasn't the most necessary.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I do kind of get the feeling these last two seasons that D & D just want to get to the end and move on.

I'm sure they do want move on but GRRM did them no favors by his snail's pace. I think most people thought that at least The Winds of Winter would be out by now. That not being the case has thrown a monkey wrench in the works.

 

[MadDevil]

I'm sure they do want move on but GRRM did them no favors by his snail's pace. I think most people thought that at least The Winds of Winter would be out by now. That not being the case has thrown a monkey wrench in the works.

I'm sure when they started this whole thing they didn't think they'd have to finish the story themselves. Which is why I give them some slack. There are definitely things they've messed up that are just plain bad or not well thought out writing, but overall I think they've done a good job of adapting what material there is. Now, if Martin writes an amazing ending that is completely different and eclipses what the show is giving us, I might change my mind.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I'm sure when they started this whole thing they didn't think they'd have to finish the story themselves. Which is why I give them some slack. There are definitely things they've messed up that are just plain bad or not well thought out writing, but overall I think they've done a good job of adapting what material there is. Now, if Martin writes an amazing ending that is completely different and eclipses what the show is giving us, I might change my mind.

I give them some slack as well. Tough position to be in. That doesn't mean this season is going like I want but there are a lot of forces that conspired for it to be six episodes. I will reserve final judgment until ep. 6 fades to black.

 

[Blender]

D&D signed up to adapt a completed story, and instead had to write the conclusion to the story after being left with a complete mess of subplots that not even GRRM can figure out how to untangle. There was a lot of talk like they stalled a bit in season 5 because GRRM told them his next book was going to come out before season 6 as well, and that never happened. Stalling in season 5 with some dreadful side plots sure didn't do anyone any favors.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

The assumption is the show will carry the rough ending of the book series-right? GRRM has just as much riding on this as D & D and HBO. Makes me hopeful it won't be a complete disaster.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

The assumption is the show will carry the rough ending of the book series-right? GRRM has just as much riding on this as D & D and HBO. Makes me hopeful it won't be a complete disaster.

GRRM is really winning big, especially since I'm guessing no one will come out and say that the ending is the one we'll see in the books. If it's great he gets all the praise, and if it sucks they get all the heat. What a finesse.

 

[Blender]

The assumption is the show will carry the rough ending of the book series-right? GRRM has just as much riding on this as D & D and HBO. Makes me hopeful it won't be a complete disaster.

Yes. GRRM apparently gave them some kind of outline and synopsis of where the story was supposed to go and the major character endings. Obviously a lot of the side characters will have different endings as quite a few of them diverged from their book plots years ago.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

GRRM is really winning big, especially since I'm guessing no one will come out and say that the ending is the one we'll see in the books. If it's great he gets all the praise, and if it sucks they get all the heat. What a finesse.

Yeah, the cynic in me wonders if this is a play to see how the show ends up to tailor the last two books accordingly.

 

[Blender]

Yeah, the skeptic in me wonders if this is a play to see how the show ends up to tailor the last two books accordingly.

Which would be an incredibly shitty thing to do and reflect really poorly on him as a person. I have to imagine his agreement with HBO can't allow him to just disown the show like that either.

 

[Knave]

D&D signed up to adapt a completed story, and instead had to write the conclusion to the story after being left with a complete mess of subplots that not even GRRM can figure out how to untangle. There was a lot of talk like they stalled a bit in season 5 because GRRM told them his next book was going to come out before season 6 as well, and that never happened. Stalling in season 5 with some dreadful side plots sure didn't do anyone any favors.

It's not like they've been constrained in any way. It's an incredibly popular show and they were given the ending how George Martin saw it. They decided to split the last season into 2 seasons. If they needed more time to untangle things they likely would have gotten it as well.

I'm not sure that's a defense of the writers. So they can't adapt and resolve the material on their own? Lets remember they made a lot of decisions on what to cut and what to include from characters to story-arcs. They were doing relatively well for most of the show.

I haven't read the books so I can't comment on where they were headed. It seems like George Martin won't finish them and is fine to have the TV series stand as ending.

 

[K Fleur]

Martin knows how terrible of a look it would be for him to shit on this show(publicly atleast). He knows if the show’s ending doesn’t play out the way he wanted it’s his own fault.

The guy doesn’t know how to get to the ending of his own source material.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

Yeah, the skeptic in me wonders if this is a play to see how the show ends up to tailor the last two books accordingly.

I'm not quite cynical enough to think he'd do that but it certainly will be a benefit of his writers block. It's crazy to think of the really unchartered territory we've entered.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

It's not like they've been constrained in any way. It's an incredibly popular show and they were given the ending how George Martin saw it. They decided to split the last season into 2 seasons. If they needed more time to untangle things they likely would have gotten it as well.

I'm not sure that's a defense of the writers. So they can't adapt and resolve the material on their own? Lets remember they made a lot of decisions on what to cut and what to include from characters to story-arcs. They were doing relatively well for most of the show.

I haven't read the books so I can't comment on where they were headed. It seems like George Martin won't finish them and is fine to have the TV series stand as ending.

I believe part of the problem is they know more than just the ending, theres other bullet points GRRM has planned and they want to hit but has no idea how and they did their best, I guess. I'm gonna guess Blue Eyes Wight Dragon was one of them, where it was pretty clunky and meant little to nothing in the end, but it worked in a way that made enough sense and created tension and played out for TV.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I'm not quite cynical enough to think he'd do that but it certainly will be a benefit of his writers block. It's crazy to think of the really unchartered territory we've entered.

I agree, but how many opportunities does an author get for an adaptation to outpace the source material? I'll be interested to see how some of the more prominent story lines in the books play out.....

 

[Vex]

Do you folks think Bran will warg into the final dragon? That was a popular theory back in the day.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

I agree, but how many opportunities does an author get for an adaptation to outpace the source material? I'll be interested to see how some of the more prominent story lines in the books play out.....

I think this is precedent-setting, it's definitely rare. Harry Potter was the only thing that came to mind but that wasn't that close. JK finished the last three books before the 5th movie came out.

 

[Emperoreddy]

I 100% agree with this.

People have gotten so particular, looking for ‘lazy writing’, ‘plot holes’ and the like in every show. Nobody seems to be able to enjoy shows without going too deep into it.

No show is going to have perfect writing , it’s impossible. If you are constantly looking for something to be not perfect you will always find it.

It’s a critical mass point when sometging gets so popular that fans get hyper critical. It’s also the problem with endings. Someone can only end one way, so inevitably someone’s head canon has to be wrong. All the mistakes folks complain about right now also happened in every season. It was just easier to ignore then, and the miserable folks weren’t latched on yet since it hadn’t ballooned into the biggest show on TV yet.

This franchise is unique in that people have built up really elaborate head canons over the course of years that has pushed expectations to unrealistic levels.

As for the idea that this middle ground exists. Go read the three largest subs on reddit. They are all salt mines. Anyone who even attempts to make an intelligent defense of he season gets downvoted into oblivion.

Two or three posters are just bringing that crap here. They know who they are and they know what they are doing. It’s your prerogative to pretend we don’t have trolls in our midst right now.

 

[Vex]

There are folks who conflate "criticism" with "personally insulting the showrunners and nitpicking the smallest, most mundane aspects of television in general."

It also doesn't help that whenever the few of us that are enjoying this final season "defend" something about it, we get insulted in some fashion subtly or otherwise.

This show, like every other show, has a cavalcade of problems. I was seething at the Hound/Sansa exhange. I don't like how Brienne became a sad housewife after one night with Jaime. They tore her down to prop up Jaime and finish his character arc. Missandei was killed unceremoniously despite being one of two people of color on the show. The only queer character "took back the Iron Islands" and has disappeared entirely in Yara. These are things I don't like about the show. Roll your eyes if you want. It's more impactful to me than poor battle strategy.

I try to focus on the good. There's a lot of good, in my opinion. A lot of folks want to say they are doing good and being critical, but they're really just poisoning the well. The discourse is so toxic.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Good lord.......the irony.