Game #64 KINGS @ JETS , 3/6/'14 ... Win 3-1

[KINGS17]

So who was telling me that Martinez capped out his development...

We haven't seen Martinez make a nice move and score a goal on the PP before?

 

[lexlavender]

We haven't seen Martinez make a nice move and score a goal on the PP before?

not THAT nice a move! HE DID A ****ING SPINARAMA AND WALKED TO THE NET!

 

[Model62]

Everybody in the arena seemed to freeze in place, mouths agape, following that spin, and Martinez tip-toed along his highwire into the slot, PRING!

Flat-footed everyone, including his teammates.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I get what you are saying here and I have seen first hand how "unfair" it can be. I had a coach tell me one time though that while sometimes the competition wasn't making the best decisions, that he couldn't teach me how to be 6-4 and 230 lbs.

That pretty much ended the conversation and any future debates about playing time. As much as we all want to be treated "equally" the guy with the greater physical tools will always be given the advantage.

Martinez has ability no doubt about it. Muzzin IMO has a much higher ceiling and is a bigger, younger, more physical player and it's obvious that his reads have improved a great deal as the season has progressed. Muzzin may not stick with the Kings, but it will be because another team sees him as a top 4 and Dean gets great value for him in a trade, more value than Martinez I would bet.

Also, Martinez fans may not like to admit it, but I have seen him be overmatched physically playing against the other team's top line and wear down with more minutes. I like what Alec gives the Kings a lot, I can't support him ever playing big minutes along side Doughty though.

I like this post for the most part, but to the boldfaced, I still don't think he's been given a fair chance to prove that or not. How much have you seen him matched against top opposition? I know he has been, for sure, especially on the road--but keep in mind who he is playing with too. Muzzin gets Doughty. Martinez gets some amalgamation of Greene-Mitchell-Regehr for the bottom pairing du jour.

I agree that if there's a weakness in Marty's game it's getting physically whipped but we also haven't gotten an extended look with Doughty. I don't think that's a fair criticism of his game when he hasn't been given ANY chance and Muzz has been given EVERY chance.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should be making ANY roster changes now, but I think Martinez could be a more agile Scuderi with more offensive smarts when all is said and done.

 

[Model62]

I get what you are saying here and I have seen first hand how "unfair" it can be. I had a coach tell me one time though that while sometimes the competition wasn't making the best decisions, that he couldn't teach me how to be 6-4 and 230 lbs.

That pretty much ended the conversation and any future debates about playing time. As much as we all want to be treated "equally" the guy with the greater physical tools will always be given the advantage.

Martinez has ability no doubt about it. Muzzin IMO has a much higher ceiling and is a bigger, younger, more physical player and it's obvious that his reads have improved a great deal as the season has progressed. Muzzin may not stick with the Kings, but it will be because another team sees him as a top 4 and Dean gets great value for him in a trade, more value than Martinez I would bet.

Also, Martinez fans may not like to admit it, but I have seen him be overmatched physically playing against the other team's top line and wear down with more minutes. I like what Alec gives the Kings a lot, I can't support him ever playing big minutes along side Doughty though.

I think that's is a pretty fair look at Martinez' game, especially that last bit about the physical play. Voynov doesn't have much of a physical presence, either (he picks his spots), but he manages to avoid getting crushed once or twice a game the way Martinez does. Imagine the beating Martinez would endure if he played Muzzin's minutes?

(Speaking of unexpected physical play -- Toffoli has been a little stronger on his skates lately. That hit he delivered in front of the bench moments before Richards scored almost put the other guy into the bench. Almost.)

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think that's is a pretty fair look at Martinez' game, especially that last bit about the physical play. Voynov doesn't have much of a physical presence, either (he picks his spots), but he manages to avoid getting crushed once or twice a game the way Martinez does. Imagine the beating Martinez would endure if he played Muzzin's minutes?

(Speaking of unexpected physical play -- Toffoli has been a little stronger on his skates lately. That hit he delivered in front of the bench moments before Richards scored almost put the other guy into the bench. Almost.)

Look at the beating Muzzin took playing Muzzin's minutes last night

Voynov is amazing when he's on his game though. He's slippery enough to usually avoid getting tagged hard, and he uses leverage and positioning to absolutely erase bigger forecheckers. We saw a bit of that last night. Avoiding huge hits is a skill as well imo. Muzzin is also getting better at that thankfully but he used to take an absolute pounding. Reminded me of Drewiske in that regard for a while.

 

[lexlavender]

 

[KINGS17]

Look at the beating Muzzin took playing Muzzin's minutes last night

Voynov is amazing when he's on his game though. He's slippery enough to usually avoid getting tagged hard, and he uses leverage and positioning to absolutely erase bigger forecheckers. We saw a bit of that last night. Avoiding huge hits is a skill as well imo. Muzzin is also getting better at that thankfully but he used to take an absolute pounding. Reminded me of Drewiske in that regard for a while.

So, you're saying that you would like to see Martinez paired with Doughty?

Don't you think Sutter and Lombardi have already assessed this possibility and reached a decision?

 

[KINGS17]

not THAT nice a move! HE DID A ****ING SPINARAMA AND WALKED TO THE NET!

Yeah, it was great. It even surprised Martinez. Has absolutely nothing to do with him getting caught on the train tracks on a regular basis when he plays too many minutes against top forecheckers.

 

[KINGS17]

This is why people that don't recognize Bobby Orr as the greatest of all time, either never saw him play, or don't know jack.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

So, you're saying that you would like to see Martinez paired with Doughty?

Don't you think Sutter and Lombardi have already assessed this possibility and reached a decision?

At some point I'd like to see it tried, yeah (obviously not right now as things are just peachy), but I wouldn't be upset if it weren't--I'm just saying it's unfair to keep throwing out "look at how Martinez does vs. top competition" when he hasn't been given a fair shake to do so--and let's not forget this is a guy who wasn't on the ice for a goal against in the cup run. How quickly we forget (though I'd love to see some of the fancy stats/other stats that either back up or smash my theories of his effectiveness).

Don't give me the "coach said so" line. This is a message board, I'm not pretending to know better than them. I'm simply talking to another fan who is criticizing Martinez's abilities to keep pace. I'm absolutely with you and many others who agree that Muzzin has a higher ceiling, but we as fans aren't privy to the personnel discussions so throw that out, and we as fans have not had an opportunity to see Marty/Doughty play together long enough to say definitively if he'd be successful there.

Edit: Although his advanced stats are middle of the pack on the Kings they're far above average on other teams...though you're right in that he's mega-sheltered compared to our other d-men (doesn't necessarily mean he's outmatched, just supports the idea that he doesn't get the chance to do so--though why would he when surrounded by so many other good d-men, I guess. Though he also does have, 2nd only to Matt Greene, the 'worst' teammates on-ice). I'd love to hear what the coaches think and know that we (or at least I ) don't. http://www.extraskater.com/team/los-angeles-kings/2013#player-usage-chart

In any case I'm not meaning to nitpick a great game. I just don't think the team needs a whipping boy be it Martinez OR Muzzin.

 

[KINGS17]

At some point I'd like to see it tried, yeah (obviously not right now as things are just peachy), but I wouldn't be upset if it weren't--I'm just saying it's unfair to keep throwing out "look at how Martinez does vs. top competition" when he hasn't been given a fair shake to do so--and let's not forget this is a guy who wasn't on the ice for a goal against in the cup run. How quickly we forget (though I'd love to see some of the fancy stats/other stats that either back up or smash my theories of his effectiveness).

Don't give me the "coach said so" line. This is a message board, I'm not pretending to know better than them. I'm simply talking to another fan who is criticizing Martinez's abilities to keep pace. I'm absolutely with you and many others who agree that Muzzin has a higher ceiling, but we as fans aren't privy to the personnel discussions so throw that out, and we as fans have not had an opportunity to see Marty/Doughty play together long enough to say definitively if he'd be successful there.

Edit: Although his advanced stats are middle of the pack on the Kings they're far above average on other teams...though you're right in that he's mega-sheltered compared to our other d-men (doesn't necessarily mean he's outmatched, just supports the idea that he doesn't get the chance to do so--though why would he when surrounded by so many other good d-men, I guess. Though he also does have, 2nd only to Matt Greene, the 'worst' teammates on-ice). I'd love to hear what the coaches think and know that we (or at least I ) don't. http://www.extraskater.com/team/los-angeles-kings/2013#player-usage-chart

In any case I'm not meaning to nitpick a great game. I just don't think the team needs a whipping boy be it Martinez OR Muzzin.

I agree, I don't think I have ever "whipped" Martinez. I like what he brings to the table. I just don't think that he can do what Muzzin does.

 

[Steve Zissou]

Anyone notice how often Cookie monster went to the net, guy is not afraid to play in the paint.

Wether it be him or a guy like Moulson (off seeason signing), we definitely need that. More goals need to be scored around the net.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I agree, I don't think I have ever "whipped" Martinez. I like what he brings to the table. I just don't think that he can do what Muzzin does.

Fair enough! And again, I do think if Muzzin realizes his potential, he can absolutely be a top-pairing d-man and a perfect compliment to Doughty, basically a Giordano--just needs to even out his consistency and not get shook.

Wether it be him or a guy like Moulson (off seeason signing), we definitely need that. More goals need to be scored around the net.

I agree with Face Wash, it's been great watching the highlight videos and realizing Gaborik isn't just a floaty sniper, he actively gets to the dirty areas for rebounds and tips and quick shots. That clip of every one of his 40+ goals with the Rangers is like 90% in-close cleanup. That, and we saw last night the separation he gains with his speed, he nearly had that tap-in back door with Kopitar, something I haven't seen this team do in ages. New dimension. Love it.

 

[Reclamation Project]

Martinez broke a pane of glass in practice this morning

 

[damacles1156]

I like this post for the most part, but to the boldfaced, I still don't think he's been given a fair chance to prove that or not. How much have you seen him matched against top opposition? I know he has been, for sure, especially on the road--but keep in mind who he is playing with too. Muzzin gets Doughty. Martinez gets some amalgamation of Greene-Mitchell-Regehr for the bottom pairing du jour.

I agree that if there's a weakness in Marty's game it's getting physically whipped but we also haven't gotten an extended look with Doughty. I don't think that's a fair criticism of his game when he hasn't been given ANY chance and Muzz has been given EVERY chance.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should be making ANY roster changes now, but I think Martinez could be a more agile Scuderi with more offensive smarts when all is said and done.

I will agree that A-Mart has not got ample time playing High minutes.

But that doesn't excuse A-Mart from getting beat one on one consistently by top players when he did.

Getting Beat one on one has nothing to do with your partner. Think back to the Chicago series playoff's, Remember Michael Handzus turning A-Mart inside out ?

Brutal.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I will agree that A-Mart has not got ample time playing High minutes.

But that doesn't excuse A-Mart from getting beat one on one consistently by top players when he did.

Getting Beat one on one has nothing to do with your partner. Think back to the Chicago series playoff's, Remember Michael Handzus turning A-Mart inside out ?

Brutal.

People keep saying this but I genuinely don't remember it. I'm not being dishonest but I've asked for evidence in the past and no one would produce it.

 

[damacles1156]

People keep saying this but I genuinely don't remember it. I'm not being dishonest but I've asked for evidence in the past and no one would produce it.

How could you forget that Chicago series, That might have been the worst Defensive performance the Kings ever had.

Worst playoff series in Drew Doughty's career. Topped off by Every pairing getting turned inside out by Chicago's speed.

A-Mart got torched that series when he played Three times one on one(once by Michael FREAKING Hundzus)..

Muzzin was about the only guy that brought Jam every game.

I will say A-Mart this year looks way better, last year was just a career worst year for A-mart.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

How could you forget that Chicago series, That might have been the worst Defensive performance the Kings ever had.

Worst playoff series in Drew Doughty's career. Topped off by Every pairing getting turned inside out by Chicago's speed.

A-Mart got torched that series when he played Three times one on one(once by Michael FREAKING Hundzus)..

Muzzin was about the only guy that brought Jam every game.

I will say A-Mart this year looks way better, last year was just a career worst year for A-mart.

I agree with that, maybe why I don't remember Martinez in particular since the whole team was exposed So why does that get held against martinez but no one else?

Again I'm not trying to nitpick but I am trying prevent something from becoming a popular line of thinking if it's a myth.

 

[damacles1156]

I like A-Mart he is a good shifty Defender.

But too me, it's apparent that Kings management wants a Defender with Size and skating ability to be paired with Drew Doughty.

A-Mart lacks the Size. You can't teach 6'3" 220LBS.

Hickey has a much better first pass and Higher Hockey IQ, and was not chosen over Muzzin.

 

[ru4reals]

I like A-Mart he is a good shifty Defender.

But too me, it's apparent that Kings management wants a Defender with Size and skating ability to be paired with Drew Doughty.

A-Mart lacks the Size. You can't teach 6'3" 220LBS.

Hickey has a much better first pass and Higher Hockey IQ, and was not chosen over Muzzin.

Pretty much Dean needs to draft or find a guy just like Marc-Andre Vlasic who played with Doughty in the Olympics. I think pretty much Vlasic fits the bolded words to a tee!

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Fully agreed!

 

[YP44]

I actually liked Muzzin last night, he got shell by Buff but Doughty also took a big hit from trouba. Hits happen.
The goal was more Doughty mistake than Muzzin (man it sounds like I am ragging on drew).
I guess I was hard pressed to find fault in anyone's game last night. I hope that it continues at Rexall. I will be there!!

 

[King RAZZ]

One of the few mistakes with Muffin last night was that he tried to make a line change at the wrong bench...

 

[KINGS17]

Pretty much Dean needs to draft or find a guy just like Marc-Andre Vlasic who played with Doughty in the Olympics. I think pretty much Vlasic fits the bolded words to a tee!

Unfortunately, unless Dean can trade up the Kings probably won't have a high pick for a while. So it is either trade for one (cost you plenty) or get one via UFA and most guys like Vlassic never hit the market as their teams see their value and lock them up.

The best course of action right now is to develop what we have.