GDT: Game # 51 Rangers vs Islanders - 7pm EST - MSG

[aufheben]

How nauseous I get watching Hajek?

I have delivered thy mantra. Use it or lose it.

 

[effen]

A poem in this thread
And cheese in my belly
Call up Tampa
And ask for Cirelli

his h-ref page for this year is not exactly thrilling for this year

 

[Edge]

This is a good post and all more than fair. In your mind, how and when should the expectations ramp?

IMO this team should be (key word) a solid playoff team (i.e. 4-6 in the conference) next year. Yes it takes time for young players to come on line, but I can't help but look at a team like the Leafs who were a borderline playoff team starting in 2016-17 after drafting Matthews and then a solid playoff team starting in 2017-18. Obviously they haven't gotten over the hump in the postseason which we can arguably attribute still at least in to a lack of experience, but they took a big step forward in 2017-18 and kept growing from there.

Arguably the NYR would or should be that bubble playoff team this year under a normal conference setup. My expectation is that they continue to trend positively and grow into a solid playoff team next year with further growth in subsequent years. We can understand that the baking isn't done yet, but there needs to continue to still be progression. And as much as tonight sucked I think they did progress this year.

I think all of this is pretty close to something I would say.

I might even argue that in a normal, 82 game season, we probably even slip into the playoffs - flaws and all.

To me, this year was the transition. Next year was the year where the expectation really does become the playoffs. I was told that this year was more about progress for the youngsters and not having them backslide.

For the most part, I really do think we've seen that. Fox progressed. Chytil progressed. Lindgren progressed. Shesterkin is the number one goalie. Miller stepped in. Kakko looks like a much better player. Lafreniere is coming into his own.

We can debate usage, and ice time, and combinations, and other factors. There's a lot of stuff worth debating there.

But, by and large, the feedback I've gotten is that this pretty much what the Rangers were hoping to see from their younger guys. Outside the organization the feedback has been that the Rangers have to be happy with how much more good than their bad there is with their young talent.

Now, that's not all on Quinn. But it's also not all without him either. So there's that give and take component.

You keep hearing me say that DQ probably makes it to next season, but lasting beyond that is going to be difficult. I think a big part of that is because the expectations start to shift next season and will certainly be different the year after that. I also think that the coach after Quinn is going to have a different roster and a different age group than what we see now. So the personality is going to shift at some point, I just don't know if it will have the desired impact now.

 

[Machinehead]

his h-ref page for this year is not exactly thrilling for this year

He is having a bit of down year, but normally he's a forechecking demon who's excellent defensively and scores at even strength.

 

[duhmetreE]

To your continued point: did Quinn coach amazingly well that game? is he a huge amount of the reason they won that game? because if he didn't, the converse isn't true in any one particular game either.

that game in particular is sorta bad though because the Bruins straight didn't show up.

It's an outlier. We were prepared that game and we were willing. Why? If we knew, wouldn't it be a common occurrence? Ok, say Quinn had the team ready to go that game.... what then? How many games were we the counter opposite? unprepared, soft and flat? Why hasn't it happened again? This season, or really since covid, the team has played completely different compared to 2019. We used to be relentless and aggressive. We are no longer that. We used to have a forecheck... How did we get to this point?

We made Boston look like that... Just as a lot of teams have returned that favor onto us. If we could consistently played to that level, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

When there's a good coach, it's noticeable. Our defense, for the most part, is well coached. In 2019 was the defense considered good? Were they doing all the little things necessary to succeed? Were we praising their active sticks, positioning and how they blocked shots? Against well structured teams, our offense is hindered. We do not do the 'little things' that are fundamentally necessary for success. Just as we did not do 'the little things' on defense in 2019, I do not believe the offense is doing 'the little things' in 2021. That is my point.

I do not believe Quinn has the team prepared and/or puts the team in the best position to succeed. I agree with a lot of what Quinn says but it contradicts reality. Talk is cheap. No matter the 'reason', it reflects poorly on Quinn. He's not in control. There's no buying in.

 

[effen]

He is having a bit of down year, but normally he's a forechecking demon who's excellent defensively and scores at even strength.

the big one that stands out are his takeaway/giveaway has gone from being superlative to very pedestrian.

 

[May Rih]

The thing is that while we can debate how he's using the forwards, and I certainly do not agree with the ice time they are getting, I do think we are developing them and making them better players.

My beef with DQ on the issue is more that I think we're making it harder than it needs to be, or put another way, we're not as efficient as we could be.

I can take the good with the bad on that for DQ. I've never liked the approach of everything bad is the coach's fault and everything good is in spite of him. I think that tends to miss the point that it's somewhere in the middle.

This is the correct take.

- Our top guys and vets have consistently played poorly in the biggest games, dating back to the bubble last year.
- The team as a whole has looked unprepared and outmatched in these games, and Quinn deserves a good amount of blame for this; if he can't get his team to show up for these games, he's failing at a crucial part of his job.
- This team is still extremely young and inexperienced, and the impact was put on full display these past two games against a very mature and structured Islanders team.

Quinn rightfully deserves blame for their shortcomings, and I think there is very good rationale to look elsewhere this offseason. But there are definitely other major contributing factors to why we got the result we did tonight.

 

[Edge]

Cirelli concerns me a little.

I think he's a very good player who looks a lot better on Tampa than he's going to look elsewhere.

I can't shake the feeling he's going to be one of those guys who Tampa sells high on, because he looks good in their system and the role they have him playing, but then gets somewhat exposed when the expectations and some of the protections are gone. And it won't make him a bad player, but it won't make him a player who matches the hope (or cost) associated with him.

 

[aufheben]

I think, to some extent, there's also a disagreement on this team's abilities at the present time, compared to the team's abilities when it's developed and gained experience.

It's kind of like savings bonds. People look at the number on the bonds and they say, "We should be rich! Why the hell are we struggling to pay the bills?"

But the bond hasn't matured yet, so even though it might say $5,000 on it, it's only worth a fraction of that right now.

I don't think DQ will be the coach beyond next season. But I also don't think that we're an uber-talented team that is failing to meet expectations. I really do think we're right about where we should be.

Right down to the slow star and the late season surge ultimately falling short, literally all of this is stuff I talked about on here months ago.

Some people just did not want to hear that. At all. Likewise, I've been saying for close to a year now that some big decisions are looming on the horizon for guys like Zibanejad and Buch, with their being legit concerns about the former. People did not want to hear that.

So at some point, I get the anger and frustration. I feel both as well. But none of this should be a surprise. It really shouldn't. The conversations in April 2021 are not all that different than they were in December 2020.

Yes, you did @Edge. Now add to that all the abnormal shit that compounded it: #1C catches a deadly virus like a week before the season starts; premier offensive-defenseman literally douchebags himself off the roster; #1LW (and top-3 player in the world) goes into hiding mid-season because of some batsoid political hit piece.

It’s impossible to imagine a more bizarre season.

And yet, I still watched improvements in many areas, on a team-level and player-level.

 

[MattMartin]

I don't think you guys played poorly tonight. I don't watch every game so you guys would obviously know better. It's not like you can't play against better teams. I know you guys played the Penguins and Caps tough, not sure about Boston.

We just got lucky we scored 1st, we are awful if we give up the 1st goal and are equally as awful on the road.

 

[Edge]

I don't think you guys played poorly tonight. I don't watch every game so you guys would obviously know better. It's not like you can't play against better teams. I know you guys played the Penguins and Caps tough, not sure about Boston.

I tend to feel like if we put every team in the division into a March Madness style tournament with one and done rounds, the Islanders would be the worst possible match up for us.

I think style and roster wise, we have the lowest odds of success against them compared to the Pens, Caps, and Bruins.

 

[duhmetreE]

I think, to some extent, there's also a disagreement on this team's abilities at the present time, compared to the team's abilities when it's developed and gained experience.

It's kind of like savings bonds. People look at the number on the bonds and they say, "We should be rich! Why the hell are we struggling to pay the bills?"

But the bond hasn't matured yet, so even though it might say $5,000 on it, it's only worth a fraction of that right now.

I don't think DQ will be the coach beyond next season. But I also don't think that we're an uber-talented team that is failing to meet expectations. I really do think we're right about where we should be.

Right down to the slow star and the late season surge ultimately falling short, literally all of this is stuff I talked about on here months ago.

Some people just did not want to hear that. At all. Likewise, I've been saying for close to a year now that some big decisions are looming on the horizon for guys like Zibanejad and Buch, with their being legit concerns about the former. People did not want to hear that.

So at some point, I get the anger and frustration. I feel both as well. But none of this should be a surprise. It really shouldn't. The conversations in April 2021 are not all that different than they were in December 2020.

any rumbling of 'who' or 'what' they are looking for?

I know it's unlikely... but... Would they throw money bags at Brind'Amour if he became available? Sullivan was the 'dream' at beginning of the season... how quickly that changed

 

[Edge]

Yes, you did @Edge. Now add to that all the abnormal shit that compounded it: #1C catches a deadly virus like a week before the season starts; premier offensive-defenseman literally douchebags himself off the roster; #1LW (and top-3 player in the world) goes into hiding mid-season because of some batsoid political hit piece.

It’s impossible to imagine a more bizarre season.

And yet, I still watched improvements in many areas, on a team-level and player-level.

I said it before the season and I'll say it again. This is a tough ass division. Yeah we have weak teams, but squeezing out any of the Isles, Pens, Caps, or Bruins is not an easy task.

I just did not agree with the overly optimistic views that the Islanders over-achieved and were on their way back down the standings, or the Caps and Pens were too old and out of their danger zones, or some of the other theories that painted a rosy picture for this team.

There's a reason why we have more points than the fourth seed in every single other division. This is a tough division to break into the top four.

 

[Edge]

any rumbling of 'who' or 'what' they are looking for?

I know it's unlikely... but... Would they throw money bags at Brind'Amour if he became available? Sullivan was the 'dream' at beginning of the season... how quickly that changed

Sullivan was high on their list.

I'd be surprised if Brind'amour isn't on their radar, though I think he stays in Carolina or goes to Seattle.

The sad thing is I think Coach Q would be a perfect fit here.

 

[CasusBelli]

So how did we look the rest of the way?

Now I remember why I don’t bother watching Isles games.

 

[GAGLine]

Gotta kick away the crutches first.

Because if I see Blackwell getting 19 minutes or the fourth line starting a game again I'm going to throw something at my TV.

And this one is less than a year old, so I really don't feel like shelling out money for a new one.

I have no problem with Quinn riding the players he thinks will help the team win. But now we are done chasing the playoffs, so give the kids more minutes.

 

[duhmetreE]

Sullivan was high on their list.

I'd be surprised if Brind'amour isn't on their radar, though I think he stays in Carolina or goes to Seattle.

The sad thing is I think Coach Q would be a perfect fit here.

timing is everything...

I understand not wanting to force the issue if 'the guy' is not available.

 

[Edge]

I have no problem with Quinn riding the players he thinks will help the team win. But now we are done chasing the playoffs, so give the kids more minutes.

And this is where Quinn is going to be particularly open to criticism, depending on how he proceeds.

 

[Edge]

timing is everything...

I understand not wanting to force the issue if 'the guy' is not available.

I do think timing is very important right now.

I'm under no illusions that DQ is showing signs of being a great NHL coach. But even putting him aside for a second, the Rangers would have to be very careful about who they'd bring in at this point. I don't know if there are a ton "next hill" coaches who are going to be chomping at the bit to take over a team with an opening night roster that could have 10 of its 18 skaters aged 23 or younger.

And I think a lot of people would be surprised at how conservative most of those coaches would be with young talent.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Playoffs aren't done yet but they have to win out and hope for the best. They lose on Saturday and it's over. No room for error and not likely a good or realistic outcome.

I agree with what @Edge said. There are going to be some tough decisions and trades. A guy like Ziba, very talented player but can a team win with him? It's a lot like in 1994 when Keenan got rid of Amonte, Patrick, Gartner, Turcotte. All very good players, even a HOFer in Gartner but none of them won a Cup.

 

[CLW]

Cirelli concerns me a little.

I think he's a very good player who looks a lot better on Tampa than he's going to look elsewhere.

I can't shake the feeling he's going to be one of those guys who Tampa sells high on, because he looks good in their system and the role they have him playing, but then gets somewhat exposed when the expectations and some of the protections are gone. And it won't make him a bad player, but it won't make him a player who matches the hope (or cost) associated with him.

The Rangers need to manufacture their own Cirellis, within the Ranger system. So many teams trade for player X hoping he will play exactly like he did for team Y. And it doesn't really work because the entire environment is different.

That's one issue I have with Quinn. What is the System and overall plan? NYI today had little trouble negating the Ranger game plan completely; deny Panarin/Zib space, pressure the D men high especially in defensive zone, don't give up stupid odd man rushes etc. When you look at the good teams, like Tampa, they have an identity and clear game plan that they execute consistently. With Quinn's team it's too often the Panarin/Zib "do hockey" poke, with the D coming in late to support the offense from the blue line, and feasting on odd man rushes. When that is denied the Rangers look like tonight, very lightweight for all the talent.

Having said that, Trotz (for example) is a very good coach, but I don't think he's the right man for a team like the Rangers. Trotz plays pretty brutal hockey, effective but it's quite negative focused on minimizing error and not so strong on creativity.

One thing I do like about Quinn is that he does have an offensive mindset, his team generally tries to play entertaining hockey which is a foundation to build on. But it feels like Quinn, as a coach, would have to learn and grow tremendously to create a team identity structure like that, the coaching equivalent to Chytil's potential path to grow into a two way 1C monster.

As you touched upon, the FO will have serious long term decisions to make this off season. No doubt they have a clear plan, but with the Seattle expansion draft this summer, and a potentially enormous trade treasure chest to exploit, it will be interesting to see which way their thinking goes. The team as it stands is talented, but it lacks a spine and some important dimensions. With a young team, and lots of kids coming up can management help create that spine and set the team on a path to playoff success? I'm sure there will be interesting trades coming up soon.

 

[CLW]

I have no problem with Quinn riding the players he thinks will help the team win. But now we are done chasing the playoffs, so give the kids more minutes.

I don't think there can be any excuse next season, he has to go with the kids and give them more minutes and responsibility. But, if he is still hc, it will be more of what we are seeing now I don't doubt.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

Rangers tried finesse this and finesse that. It doesn't work against the Islanders.

All I'd like out of this game is I hope Lindgren is ok longterm even if he's kept out for the next five for precautionary. That hit scared me. Brought back memories of Sauer.

 

[smoneil]

For the most part, I really do think we've seen that. Fox progressed. Chytil progressed. Lindgren progressed. Shesterkin is the number one goalie. Miller stepped in. Kakko looks like a much better player. Lafreniere is coming into his own.

We can debate usage, and ice time, and combinations, and other factors. There's a lot of stuff worth debating there.

I tend to agree with a lot of what you post. And I agree that nobody should be giving up or getting down on guys like Laf and Kakko, and that they both showed improvement this season. But I have to ask, as I just don't get it--how are people with the team happy with the production rates of Kakko and Laf? They are historically low bad, and it's unlikely that either player breaks 25 points on the season (which would make two seasons in a row for Kakko). Were they legitimately expecting those guys to have that minor a contribution re: scoring? I didn't expect either to be putting up 60+ points or anything wild like that, but I did expect them to at least be pushing towards 35-40. There's no concern at all with the low scoring?

 

[Rempe73]

Welp, that was a f***ing terrible day. And then getting shutout to top it all off was like come the f*** on.