Post-Game Talk: Game #21: Sharks 2, Canucks 1 in OT - At least we don't play tham again this season

[PG Canuck]

And the best team the Canucks have ever iced had Mason Raymond in the top 6. That's the point. The pieces as still here.

So? Raymond produced a 0.56 PPG for 2.5M. That team was deep, that's the point.

 

[LolClarkson*]

A while till we I've a team better than that?

That was one of the best teams in the last 10 years. It's possible the Canucks will never have a team as good as that.

Those stats are absolutely remarkable. If we would have won the cup we would have been a once in a life time team.

We might not ever see hockey like that from our team again.

All we have to be is as good as Detroit's team last year.

Do you think we are vastly inferior to Detroit's team last year ?>

 

[NuxFan09]

And the best team the Canucks have ever iced had Mason Raymond in the top 6. That's the point. The pieces as still here.

Yes, but they're not the horses they once were. The best Kesler has shown early this season has come while occupying a plum spot on the Sedin line and he's even cooling off while still on that line. Back then, he was a Selke winner who could create offense on the 2nd line, a factor that helped make that team elite and cannot be overlooked. The Sedins were also still Art Ross contenders and Luongo was a Vezina finalist.

Yes, the pieces are still here, but you need to accept that their best is behind them.

 

[canucksfan]

The 2011 team had both Sedins at their best. Easily top five players in the league. Erhoff on the blueline to help offensively. 50 points as a defenseman is fantastic. Kesler scored 40 goals that year. Samuelson was a very good 2nd liner. Torres and Higgins were great additions and Malholtra was one of the best third liners in the league before his injury.

When you compare the offense to this year team, the players that are still here haven't really improved or got worse and the Nucks have lost some key pieces. They are still a good team but they struggle to score goals. Daniel won the Art Ross trophy that year. He will be lucky to be top 20 in scoring this year.

 

[PG Canuck]

I don't think any team will rival that one in this new NHL.

A while till we I've a team better than that?

That was one of the best teams in the last 10 years. It's possible the Canucks will never have a team as good as that.

Those stats are absolutely remarkable. If we would have won the cup we would have been a once in a life time team.

We might not ever see hockey like that from our team again.

Chicago last year was fairly close.

Stanley Cup
Presidents Trophy
#3 PK
#2 GF
#1 GA

Only thing is their PP wasn't very good.

 

[LolClarkson*]

So? Raymond produced a 0.56 PPG for 2.5M. That team was deep, that's the point.

Raymond in the top 6 isn't that crazy deep. Its not a team we are incapable of putting together again.

I'd argue this team was the deepest on paper.

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Demitra(rip)-Sundin-Kesler

 

[NuxFan09]

Williams and Stoll ???

The fact you're laughing is exactly my point. You find it funny that I mention Williams and Stoll. Meanwhile, this team is icing Higgins and Santorelli and Burrows as the 2nd line. And you're trying to argue THIS team is good enough.

 

[deadinthewater]

The fact you're laughing is exactly my point. You find it funny that I mention Williams and Stoll. Meanwhile, this team is icing Higgins and Santorelli and Burrows as the 2nd line. And you're trying to argue THIS team is good enough.

Weren't they pretty good in this game? I remember a shift where they had Couture in over his head..

 

[Orca Smash]

Agreed, he originally thought Boyle shot it, but when Boyle was actually trying to shoot it, and there are 3 Canucks diving to block the shot in front of him, as well as Sharks players in front the most logical assumption in that position is that Boyle completed his shot. The best thing to do in that situation was to go down in case the shot made it through or got deflected by the traffic in front so he would be ready to stop it.
The odds it would be a flukey fan that headed straight to Hertl are so low, it was definitely a very lucky break for San Jose that it happened that way, but I don't think it's a question of Luongo misreading the play, or his lateral movement.

On that note, even san jose coach felt we were the better team and luck played a role in all this.

"You hear hockey people talk about the hockey gods where it starts to even out," coach Todd McLellan said. "We weren't the better team tonight".

 

[LolClarkson*]

Yes, but they're not the horses they once were. The best Kesler has shown early this season has come while occupying a plum spot on the Sedin line and he's even cooling off while still on that line. Back then, he was a Selke winner who could create offense on the 2nd line, a factor that helped make that team elite and cannot be overlooked. The Sedins were also still Art Ross contenders and Luongo was a Vezina finalist.

Yes, the pieces are still here, but you need to accept that their best is behind them.

Detroit is an old team too and they almost beat the Hawks last year.


Do you think we are vastly inferior to Detroit's team last year ?

 

[mossey3535]

So a 34/35 year old goaltender is going to become more agile laterally? And their going to work on some "modern skating" and he'll be back where he was 10 years ago? Well they should go ahead and do that then anytime.

How can people deny he's lost a step? I realize he was never very mobile and always relied on positioning, but all goalies have to get accross the net. Luongo used to be able to get accross low and upright, he falls forward now.

Just watch a highlight package from his days in Florida or when we first got him. Then come back and tell me he's getting faster and more mobile because if "modern skating."

He's 34 with nearly 800 NHL games under his belt. It's not a travesty to point out that he's not 23 anymore.

Because an old goalie who can't skate is always going to look bad laterally. Technique is very important for a modern goalie. Look at Thomas, he is five years older but his skating is much better than Lu's. I have occasionally coached young kids and despite their energy and flexibility they are like beached whales until they get the technique down. And these are kids who have grown up watching Carey Price; they try to copy what it looks like he is doing and they still can't push off effectively (and I judge this according to their size).

You and many others are just stuck on this whole 'he hurt his groin this one year and now he is less athtletic'. That's a silly narrative to me because I have watched Luongo since he was in junior and I know he can't skate. Not being able to skate is a greater factor than him aging.

Plus, the first thing to go when he gets older will be his reads on the puck. Sliding across is relatively easy. Also, your groin isn't as involved. Having switched from hybrid to the modern style myself I would say it's much easier on your body except for your hips.

And I have detailed breakdowns from old goalie magazine articles from his florida days - he had the same issues then with lateral mobility, the same tendency to do a weak kick save. The difference is that despite allowing lots of shots and sucking, that team was trained to clear his rebounds.

 

[canuck4life16]

Don't believe William is a better player than Burrows maybe better scorer but that it

 

[StringerBell]

No MS or orcatown review? Lame. Carry on with the scapegoating and chicken little-ing.

 

[NuxFan09]

Weren't they pretty good in this game? I remember a shift where they had Couture in over his head..

They were, but you likely missed the context of our discussion. I was comparing this roster to the 2012 Kings roster and saying that Higgins, Burrows and Santorelli are not Carter Williams and Stoll. He's laughing at the fact I mentioned Williams and Stoll in this discussion while at the same time trying to defend a team who ices Higgins-Santorelli-Burrows as the 2nd line. Now THAT's funny.

 

[PG Canuck]

Raymond in the top 6 isn't that crazy deep. Its not a team we are incapable of putting together again.

I'd argue this team was the deepest on paper.

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Demitra(rip)-Sundin-Kesler

Doesn't matter where Raymond was playing in order to determine if that roster was deep or not. It's all about who had chemistry with who. So you're arguing a top six on one team is better than a complete roster that 2011 had?

 

[LolClarkson*]

The fact you're laughing is exactly my point. You find it funny that I mention Williams and Stoll. Meanwhile, this team is icing Higgins and Santorelli and Burrows as the 2nd line. And you're trying to argue THIS team is good enough.

And the 2011 team had Mason Raymond on the 2nd line.

Burrows is way better then Stoll or Williams. Higgins is at least as good and we don't know what we have in Santo yet

 

[ugghhh]

What is Luongo doing reaching and not pushing side to side when the puck goes cross ice? His teammates go down to block the shot, thats on them. Luongo fails to push across, thats on him.

When is the last time we have seen him push and slide, side to side, when the puck goes across the ice?

I don't think you can blame luongo for either goal. The first is obvious. The second goal was a quick one touch pass by pavelski through the box on the pk. Luongo has no chance there, he had to try to get across as quickly as possible and he does a great job -- but Boyle is a great player and makes an experienced play and waits and takes a great job. A great play by two players on a 4 on 3 PP -- tough to be upset at a goalie there. The optics weren't great, but that is an absurdly tough play.

On the whole, a great game for the canucks. Tortorella has been amazing so far -- the team could really use another scorer and IMO the best option for us is cammalleri.

 

[NuxFan09]

Detroit is an old team too and they almost beat the Hawks last year.


Do you think we are vastly inferior to Detroit's team last year ?

I give you credit. That's a pretty good comparison and maybe a beacon of hope for this year's Canucks. I'd say they're pretty darn even. That being said, as much as I love them, the Sedins aren't the horses Datsyuk and Zetterberg are in the playoffs. Those two didn't exactly light it up last year in the playoffs, but I'd still give them the benefit of the doubt over Henrik and Daniel.

Otherwise, I'll admit you got me. I can't see how last year's Wings team is substantially better than the Canucks this year. That doesn't mean I don't still think this team needs improving though.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Mossey, just have to say, great analysis about goalies from you. I enjoy the insight from someone that knows what they are talking about. Pretty even handed.

The good and bad about Luongo was discussed here. We all know how good Lu can be, but I hope people take notice of the bad while watching him play to better inform their opinions. There is a standard we were/are used to here with Luongo and we saw how that was contrasted by Schneider. Each had some things they did better than the other. Each had weaknesses. No sense in glossing over the weaknesses to blindly believe certain viewpoints though, IMO.

 

[MS]

Good performance, frustrating loss. Played pretty much a textbook game for 59 minutes, then have an incredibly unlucky play tie the game.

Luongo was very solid for the entire game ... then absolutely horrible on the winning goal. Helps us get 1 point, then loses the second.

Sedins were much better tonight, but still no finish. Probably our best players. Need to get more pucks to the net. Kesler continues to do nothing offensively.

Burrows was both the best and worst news of the night. Blew about 5 great chances, which probably cost us the game. But at least he was getting chances, and shots, and lots of them. Like Higgins earlier in the year, the pucks will start going in if he keeps playing like he did tonight and gets some confidence and luck.

Santorelli continues to play very well. Is levelling off offensively, but still a substantial asset. Do wonder about having him on the ice in the last minute, though.

Booth ... ugh. His speed is just gone. Not sure what we do with him at this point.

Thought the 4th line was actually good tonight in their limited minutes. Had at least 3 good shifts.

Defense all played well. Edler-Garrison pair continues to be the weakest. Edler was a bit better tonight, though.

Bieksa was terrific ... then takes himself out of the game when we need him most. Love when he fights, but that was a dumb, selfish decision.

 

[NuxFan09]

And the 2011 team had Mason Raymond on the 2nd line.

Burrows is way better then Stoll or Williams. Higgins is at least as good and we don't know what we have in Santo yet

Okay, and which one of those are nearly as good as Jeff Carter? I was trying to make the most linear comparison of the forward groups as I could.

 

[Addison Rae]

And the 2011 team had Mason Raymond on the 2nd line.

Burrows is way better then Stoll or Williams. Higgins is at least as good and we don't know what we have in Santo yet

Burrows and Williams are comparable but I'd give Williams the edge. I prefer Burrows and Higgins to Stoll though.

 

[Rotting Corpse*]

When you point out concerns with the team after a win, you are scolded for being negative after a win ("Why are you complaining? We won the game!") When you point out concerns with the team after a loss, you are told that it's reactionary and that you are "chicken littleing." So when is the appropriate time to point out concerns about the team? After a tie? Never? When am I permitted to state that we need more offense, that we need to better capitalize on opportunities? That the team as structured probably isn't good enough? When is it OK for me to point out that we have exactly 2 regulation wins this season against our own conference?

If you want to argue with someone, take issue with the things they are saying. Argue with the contents of the post. If you want to argue with something I said then fine, be my guest. I would be happy to debate anyone here on any of the actual points that I have made. But get lost with all these ad hominems and hand-waving dismissals based entirely on whether the comments happened to come after a win or a loss. They are juvenile and do not further the discussion.

I agree we looked good tonight. It's a plus. We have mostly looked pretty good against three very tough opponents. That is good news. But overall I

 

[NuxFan09]

When you point out concerns with the team after a win, you are scolded for being negative after a win ("Why are you complaining? We won the game!") When you point out concerns with the team after a loss, you are told that it's reactionary and that you are "chicken littleing." So when is the appropriate time to point out concerns about the team? After a tie? Never? When am I permitted to state that we need more offense, that we need to better capitalize on opportunities? That the team as structured probably isn't good enough? When is it OK for me to point out that we have exactly 2 regulation wins this season against our own conference?

If you want to argue with someone, take issue with the things they are saying. Argue with the contents of the post. If you want to argue with something I said then fine, be my guest. I would be happy to debate anyone here on any of the actual points that I have made. But get lost with all these ad hominems and hand-waving dismissals based entirely on whether the comments happened to come after a win or a loss. They are juvenile and do not further the discussion.

Thank you! You sir, hit the nail on the head.

 

[LolClarkson*]

I give you credit. That's a pretty good comparison and maybe a beacon of hope for this year's Canucks. I'd say they're pretty darn even. That being said, as much as I love them, the Sedins aren't the horses Datsyuk and Zetterberg are in the playoffs. Those two didn't exactly light it up last year in the playoffs, but I'd still give them the benefit of the doubt over Henrik and Daniel.

Otherwise, I'll admit you got me. I can't see how last year's Wings team is substantially better than the Canucks this year. That doesn't mean I don't still think this team needs improving though.

I know what you were getting at about the Kings roster. Williams isn't a laugh worthy player...

As far as the Detroit comparo, I'd say we are a step ahead of that 2013 Detroit team with Torterella.