GDT: Game 12: Red Wings at hawks 8:00 pm et 11/6/24

[datsyukfan]

Burgers Kasper Raymond
Copp Compher Tank.

Do it Lalonde.

I actually would welcome this move. It makes some sense. Gives Raymond some more speed (Kasper) and creativity (Berggren) to play with.

The 3rd line becomes more of a big body grind it out, let Copp and Compher work the cycle and tank capitalize on the chances they create

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Seider and Ed pushed him around a lot

Raymond too.

 

[nhlisawesome]

This weekend's game are massive in determining early on if we're just dreamers carried completely by luck, Talbot, and Larkin's goals so far. If they can get 2+ points vs Leafs / Rangers there could be something there. Eventually the passive playstyle gets exposed heavily by good teams that push the envelope. I guess you go Lyon tomorrow and Talbot Saturday?

 

[Gniwder]

Copp’s trade stock is rising.

There will be Cup contenders looking for 3rd line centers who can close competitive games with empty net goals.

Namestnikov was traded 4 times for a 4th round pick since 2019. If Copp didn't have 2 more years on his contract....

 

[odin1981]

I caught most of the game last night. It was good overall, granted against a tanking team. But I'm glad that they didn't let up after they took the lead back in the second. Hopefully they will build on that and be more proactive when they have the lead instead of doing the turtle and pray like they usually do.

It's one thing to turtle up when you are in a 3+ goal lead. I understand at that point they are conserving energy. But when you are only 1-2 goals up, it is asking for comebacks.

 

[14ari13]

I caught most of the game last night. It was good overall, granted against a tanking team. But I'm glad that they didn't let up after they took the lead back in the second. Hopefully they will build on that and be more proactive when they have the lead instead of doing the turtle and pray like they usually do.

It's one thing to turtle up when you are in a 3+ goal lead. I understand at that point they are conserving energy. But when you are only 1-2 goals up, it is asking for comebacks.

You see there that kind of game, establishing the momentum and dominating instead of turtling.
Several posters or all have complained about that part of the game with a good reason.
That happened last night when Petry went to maintain the play in the offensive zone, but he failed and they scored. Everyone jumped and complained how terrible Petry was, but his intention was right and neither the team no he should get discouraged because of it. They have to try it. Obviously they can't succeed doing it as they are not on the same page yet.
I would say it was a good and right play by Petry, but unfortunately not successful.

If the posters want to discuss this play, they can do it without me, I don't have time.
But to me it was a very important part of the game the team has to improve on.

 

[odin1981]

You see there that kind of game, establishing the momentum and dominating instead of turtling.
Several posters or all have complained about that part of the game with a good reason.
That happened last night when Petry went to maintain the play in the offensive zone, but he failed and they scored. Everyone jumped and complained how terrible Petry was, but his intention was right and neither the team no he should get discouraged because of it. They have to try it. Obviously they can't succeed doing it as they are not on the same page yet.
I would say it was a good and right play by Petry, but unfortunately not successful.

If the posters want to discuss this play, they can do it without me, I don't have time.
But to me it was a very important part of the game the team has to improve on.

I'm not saying I'm not guilty of this though
the object of my disdain is normally Chiarot and Holl. Ultimately I get why people are upset the defense outside of the first pairing is lacking. I would like to see AL Jo worked in more as well. But I understand earning a coaches trust can take time.

We should all understand what we have in the usual talked about 4. It is frustrating. But over the next 1-3 years they will be moved on from incrementally.

On a side note, I enjoy your discussion. We have over the year's engaged in many topics. It is also a good conversation at least from my perspective. Wish you well friend.

 

[norrisnick]

You see there that kind of game, establishing the momentum and dominating instead of turtling.
Several posters or all have complained about that part of the game with a good reason.
That happened last night when Petry went to maintain the play in the offensive zone, but he failed and they scored. Everyone jumped and complained how terrible Petry was, but his intention was right and neither the team no he should get discouraged because of it. They have to try it. Obviously they can't succeed doing it as they are not on the same page yet.
I would say it was a good and right play by Petry, but unfortunately not successful.

If the posters want to discuss this play, they can do it without me, I don't have time.
But to me it was a very important part of the game the team has to improve on.

It is not a good and right play if you aren't capable of making the play. You have to be able to read that you're slow as f*** in your old age and aren't going to beat a quicker player to a 50/50 puck. Back off and defend.

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

It is not a good and right play if you aren't capable of making the play. You have to be able to read that you're slow as f*** in your old age and aren't going to beat a quicker player to a 50/50 puck. Back off and defend.

Yeah that was just a poor decision by Petry. It was very unlikely he'd get to the puck first and he ended up mostly missing the player too. That play came near the end of a stretch where the Wings weren't playing well, maybe he was desperate to try to get things turned around by keeping play up-ice, but a bad play. A bit later Chiarot got caught too on a pinch, but that was a case of him making the riight decision. He was in position to be aggressive along the boards, but he either misplayed the puck or it took a bad bounce on him. Chiarot though unlike Petry can still skate well enough to get back and help defend the breakout..

There are just too many age-decline related issues with Petry. Falling down on a turn, being outmuscled on the boards more often, puck races he used to win he's now lucky to tie, losing sense of where the puck is at his feet and whiffing on a pass. And asking Chiarot to be the one to help cover for his lack of range only magnifies Chiarot's main issue of wandering too far away from where he needs to be.
\

 

[HoweFan]

I am not concerned about Kasper. He looks good out there, and he is creating chances for both himself and his linemates. The points will come.

Same can be said of Rasmussen. He looks prrtty good this season. His points will come too.

Nice to hear that of Ras.

 

[Oddbob]

I think Kasper and Berggren as a line have been really good the last 3 games or so. I wouldnt be moving them right now at all. We're talking about a rookie and a sophomore player that are starting to develop some chemistry. They don't need to be shaken up after 4 games where their advanced stats and eye test have looked really solid.

I definitely wouldn't be moving Copp anywhere from what he's doing right now lol. I don't care if he's getting weird bounces, he's like halfway to his highest red wing goal total already



Completely agree with this. I think a lot of people want a high pick to step in and be a point per game player right away. But Kasper is playing really well, gets chances, and is awesome defensively. He also has the puck on his stick a lot out there. Its a good situation for him to develop, people just need to let him

2 of Copp's goals are EN's. He got 2 lucky ones and 2 EN and nothing else about his play is any better than last year or the year before. This is like a few years ago when Namestnikov had 9 goals or something and 4-5 were EN's.

 

[norrisnick]

2 of Copp's goals are EN's. He got 2 lucky ones and 2 EN and nothing else about his play is any better than last year or the year before. This is like a few years ago when Namestnikov had 9 goals or something and 4-5 were EN's.

Does it matter? Over the past 2 and a partial seasons now Copp, more often than not facing the toughest offensive opposition, is +6 at even strength. Him, Ras, and Larkin are the only positive forwards (that have played all 3 seasons) over that span. Complain about how he scores his goals all you want, but he is doing exactly what he's been paid and deployed to do.

 

[Gniwder]

Does it matter? Over the past 2 and a partial seasons now Copp, more often than not facing the toughest offensive opposition, is +6 at even strength. Him, Ras, and Larkin are the only positive forwards (that have played all 3 seasons) over that span. Complain about how he scores his goals all you want, but he is doing exactly what he's been paid and deployed to do.

Luke F Glendening was +3 in his last season with the Wings, you don't pay a player $5.6M to be a plus player.

Keep in mind that the top scorers get -1 for empty netters against while the defensive guys get a +1 when they score one. Larkin, Raz, and Copp are all on the ice defending against the extra skaters. As lame as some of your arguments have been, using +/- without context definitely takes the cake.

At $5.6M, Copp is not only paid to defend, but he's paid to score. Luke is getting paid league min.

 

[Oddbob]

Does it matter? Over the past 2 and a partial seasons now Copp, more often than not facing the toughest offensive opposition, is +6 at even strength. Him, Ras, and Larkin are the only positive forwards (that have played all 3 seasons) over that span. Complain about how he scores his goals all you want, but he is doing exactly what he's been paid and deployed to do.

He is not playing to his cap hit at all. What are you talking about? You don't pay 5.75 a season for 30 ish pts and only decent defence.

 

[norrisnick]

He is not playing to his cap hit at all. What are you talking about? You don't pay 5.75 a season for 30 ish pts and only decent defence.

Almost every team in the league does. On average the last three seasons (this current one is a partial) there have been 28 forwards scoring between 0.4 and 0.6 PPG (Copp is at ~0.5 since he's been here) making more than $5M AAV. That list grows if you remove the 0.4 lower limit...

 

[Henkka]

Copp was paid the market value as UFA. Not overpaid, not underpaid. He was valued for that on that time.

What is so tough for people to understand this?

He probably regressed a bit after that ab surgery, but that's another story.

 

[RRhoads]

I haven't been a fan of Copp at his cap hit, but he seems a bit faster this year. Anyone else noticed this?

 

[Oddbob]

Almost every team in the league does. On average the last three seasons (this current one is a partial) there have been 28 forwards scoring between 0.4 and 0.6 PPG (Copp is at ~0.5 since he's been here) making more than $5M AAV. That list grows if you remove the 0.4 lower limit...

Well then I guess you expect too little for nearly 6 mil a season.

 

[Gniwder]

I haven't been a fan of Copp at his cap hit, but he seems a bit faster this year. Anyone else notised this?

Abby was always faster at the start of the season, even in his last one, then he'd drop off like a banded steer before Thanksgiving. You may be right that he's a tad faster than he was at the end of last season, but I doubt it lasts.

I assume "core muscle" is an euphemism for groin injury. There have been many players that never recovered like Weiss. Back then I kept mentioning Brooks Laich, and as usual everyone told me I'm a dumbass, lol. At least Copp faired better than those two.

 

[norrisnick]

Well then I guess you expect too little for nearly 6 mil a season.

There are 52 forwards in the league this season making $5M+ and scoring at Copp's level or below. You guys need to re calibrate what that money gets you.

 

[Oddbob]

There are 52 forwards in the league this season making $5M+ and scoring at Copp's level or below. You guys need to re calibrate what that money gets you.

A good chunk of the guys making similar money to him are going to pass him by mid season and end of season at worst, in pts. As is, he has a couple more pts than much better players who will get going yet.

This is the list of guys making similar money to him. Most of the guys below Copp in pts will easily pass him and the ones above him will get further ahead.

 

[OldnotDeadWings]

Abby was always faster at the start of the season, even in his last one, then he'd drop off like a banded steer before Thanksgiving. You may be right that he's a tad faster than he was at the end of last season, but I doubt it lasts.

I assume "core muscle" is an euphemism for groin injury. There have been many players that never recovered like Weiss. Back then I kept mentioning Brooks Laich, and as usual everyone told me I'm a dumbass, lol. At least Copp faired better than those two.

Recovery rate from core surgery is good for younger players but predictably drops the older and more physically worn down a player gets. Weiss, Laich, others had lots of miles on them and in Weiss' case other injuries (operations to both wrists IIRC for tendon issues, he couldn't shoot anymore like he used to)., Copp is sort of in the middle, still with a decent chance he'll be fine. I think he is a bit quicker this season, at least early like you said as opposed to end of season, but is helped by not having to cover as much territory at LW as he would at C.

 

[norrisnick]

A good chunk of the guys making similar money to him are going to pass him by mid season and end of season at worst, in pts. As is, he has a couple more pts than much better players who will get going yet.

This is the list of guys making similar money to him. Most of the guys below Copp in pts will easily pass him and the ones above him will get further ahead.

Don't forget the guys making way more money than him that aren't outperforming him. $5-6M is 3C money.

 

[Gniwder]

Don't forget the guys making way more money than him that aren't outperforming him. $5-6M is 3C money.

You're just making stuff up dude. Copp has the 167th highest salary cap hit and the only forwards that scored less while making more money last season were all injured.

 

[14ari13]

It is not a good and right play if you aren't capable of making the play. You have to be able to read that you're slow as f*** in your old age and aren't going to beat a quicker player to a 50/50 puck. Back off and defend.

How about you try to read and comprehend?

1. Has team been outplayed and outshot many times?
2. How many times the team has been badly outshot
3. Last night we played a very bad team and were once again outshot and in period 1 they had doubled our shots.
4. Have many posters complained about the team getting outshot and outplayed?

I am the only one who does care about it all, I like and appreciate our effective wins. All of you complain about being outshot and outplayed, but I have yet to see a single idea how to fix it.

Would you prefer the team decided to sit back and keep the 1-0 lead?

Please answer all questions. If you can't answer all, just note which ones you skip.