GDT: Game #10: San Jose vs Utah HC - 7:00pm - Utah16, Utah HC+

[crazyhockeylover96]

If they don't come out and spank the Sharks tonight, I've officially lost interest in them. This sharks team is so so bad.

Well...there's always the main board.

 

[LittlePipes]

Not really my team anymore, so I don’t really care what happens, but I’ve invested too much time watching these guys and nothing has changed over the course of four years.

Sergachev isn’t anything special and I think that was Smiths splash? Would have rather held onto geekie and moser. This team continues to be the same version of itself every year. Nothing changes.

I sure miss Moser

 

[Hogan20]

I went to bed after the 2nd period was over. What a terrible, terrible game for Utah.

 

[Jakey53]

Anyone that took over for BA couldn't possibly be handed a better deck of cards to make themselves look good once it all comes together. Wouldn't take much except a little more patience since BA has done all the "dirty" work already.

I'd hate to see BA let go before we even get to see Simashev, Iginla & But make the team next season since they're a huge part of his plan. Once all the top picks have a season of NHL experience they could (hopefully) make big trades and really go for it.

A new GM would be gifted a silver spoon.

Edit: IMO the rebuild isn't over until after next season (yes, after ) but they need to be way more competitive than they've been, now.

The other Utah Armstrong said something like the rebuild is 44% complete or something stupid like that. So, the way it sounds, the brain trust in Utah thinks it will take years to complete this rebuild.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

The other Utah Armstrong said something like the rebuild is 44% complete or something stupid like that. So, the way it sounds, the brain trust in Utah thinks it will take years to complete this rebuild.

Who is the other Utah Armstrong? Did you mean the other day Armstrong said or am I forgetting somebody?

In my opinion I think they could really make a big, big jump in the standings, in one off-season. To me that's after Sim, But, and Iginla have one year of NHL experience. 07-08 season IMO.

That's when I figure they can start making big trades to fill out the roster with anything they couldn't draft, still need, and become a contender over the next few and keep it going for years after. That's my version of the end of the rebuild.

I am curious what event BA considers the end though.

Edit:
For all I know BA could consider making trades to fill in the gaps as the last 25% of the rebuild. But it could also be the fastest moving 25% of the rebuild. The last half shouldn't take a long as the first half did because prospect development takes the longest.

The % completed isn't gauged by time it's gauged by what's accomplished.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

The other Utah Armstrong said something like the rebuild is 44% complete or something stupid like that. So, the way it sounds, the brain trust in Utah thinks it will take years to complete this rebuild.

Currently looks like they’re right!

 

[cobra427]

The other Utah Armstrong said something like the rebuild is 44% complete or something stupid like that. So, the way it sounds, the brain trust in Utah thinks it will take years to complete this rebuild.

In year 4 (last year) of BA's tenure, we were the 28th best team out of 32 teams at 77 points. That could not have been the plan for success that BA laid out 4 years ago. BA is being given way too much slack, this is clearly not a successful rebuild at this time. What if we are at 85 points or less again this year, still a solid 10 points out of the playoffs? Keep in mind, 1/2 the teams make the playoffs every year.

BA keeps laying out a super long time horizon, that way he doesn't really have any shorter term milestones. What team would hire a GM for a rebuild and be ok with, hey we won't make the playoffs the next 5 years, but in year 6 or 7 we will and in years 8-10 we can go further? Murello theoretically first believed in Chayka, then he switched gears and believed in BA. Murello had other issues to deal with, so maybe never pressed BA.

I think BA waited too long to start the rebuild, didn't make moves quick enough and that has prolonged the rebuild. I think what will bite him is the team being misconstructed. We are strong on the wing but weak at C and even weaker at top 4D even with all healthy D men. By year 5, this year, this should have been better solved by now.

Smith had many issues to contend with bringing the team into a new town. He is smart to give BA a year, and bear too. Smith can evaluate this year but also will be looking at the body of work over 4-5 years. I think if we are sub 80 points, BA/Bear are gone. If we are 90+ and in or close to playoffs, then they stay. In between, I think Smith might still make a move.

Smith is an experienced sports club owner and is more likely to pick his own management team, bring in his hand picked guys. Smith has money and options here to hire another GM. My point is, BA and maybe Bear are going to be held accountable.

 

[Jakey53]

Who is the other Utah Armstrong? Did you mean the other day Armstrong said or am I forgetting somebody?

In my opinion I think they could really make a big, big jump in the standings, in one off-season. To me that's after Sim, But, and Iginla have one year of NHL experience. 07-08 season IMO.

That's when I figure they can start making big trades to fill out the roster with anything they couldn't draft, still need, and become a contender over the next few and keep it going for years after. That's my version of the end of the rebuild.

I am curious what event BA considers the end though.

Edit:
For all I know BA could consider making trades to fill in the gaps as the last 25% of the rebuild. But it could also be the fastest moving 25% of the rebuild. The last half shouldn't take a long as the first half did because prospect development takes the longest.

The % completed isn't gauged by time it's gauged by what's accomplished.

Smith brought in his own guy to oversee the operation I believe. BA is under him. Same last name.

In year 4 (last year) of BA's tenure, we were the 28th best team out of 32 teams at 77 points. That could not have been the plan for success that BA laid out 4 years ago. BA is being given way too much slack, this is clearly not a successful rebuild at this time. What if we are at 85 points or less again this year, still a solid 10 points out of the playoffs? Keep in mind, 1/2 the teams make the playoffs every year.

BA keeps laying out a super long time horizon, that way he doesn't really have any shorter term milestones. What team would hire a GM for a rebuild and be ok with, hey we won't make the playoffs the next 5 years, but in year 6 or 7 we will and in years 8-10 we can go further? Murello theoretically first believed in Chayka, then he switched gears and believed in BA. Murello had other issues to deal with, so maybe never pressed BA.

I think BA waited too long to start the rebuild, didn't make moves quick enough and that has prolonged the rebuild. I think what will bite him is the team being misconstructed. We are strong on the wing but weak at C and even weaker at top 4D even with all healthy D men. By year 5, this year, this should have been better solved by now.

Smith had many issues to contend with bringing the team into a new town. He is smart to give BA a year, and bear too. Smith can evaluate this year but also will be looking at the body of work over 4-5 years. I think if we are sub 80 points, BA/Bear are gone. If we are 90+ and in or close to playoffs, then they stay. In between, I think Smith might still make a move.

Smith is an experienced sports club owner and is more likely to pick his own management team, bring in his hand picked guys. Smith has money and options here to hire another GM. My point is, BA and maybe Bear are going to be held accountable.

Smith brought in his own guy, who has the same last name as BA.

 

[LittlePipes]

In year 4 (last year) of BA's tenure, we were the 28th best team out of 32 teams at 77 points. That could not have been the plan for success that BA laid out 4 years ago. BA is being given way too much slack, this is clearly not a successful rebuild at this time. What if we are at 85 points or less again this year, still a solid 10 points out of the playoffs? Keep in mind, 1/2 the teams make the playoffs every year.

BA keeps laying out a super long time horizon, that way he doesn't really have any shorter term milestones. What team would hire a GM for a rebuild and be ok with, hey we won't make the playoffs the next 5 years, but in year 6 or 7 we will and in years 8-10 we can go further? Murello theoretically first believed in Chayka, then he switched gears and believed in BA. Murello had other issues to deal with, so maybe never pressed BA.

I think BA waited too long to start the rebuild, didn't make moves quick enough and that has prolonged the rebuild. I think what will bite him is the team being misconstructed. We are strong on the wing but weak at C and even weaker at top 4D even with all healthy D men. By year 5, this year, this should have been better solved by now.

Smith had many issues to contend with bringing the team into a new town. He is smart to give BA a year, and bear too. Smith can evaluate this year but also will be looking at the body of work over 4-5 years. I think if we are sub 80 points, BA/Bear are gone. If we are 90+ and in or close to playoffs, then they stay. In between, I think Smith might still make a move.

Smith is an experienced sports club owner and is more likely to pick his own management team, bring in his hand picked guys. Smith has money and options here to hire another GM. My point is, BA and maybe Bear are going to be held accountable.

100%

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Does @cobra427 not realize this is the same choir?

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

In year 4 (last year) of BA's tenure, we were the 28th best team out of 32 teams at 77 points. That could not have been the plan for success that BA laid out 4 years ago. BA is being given way too much slack, this is clearly not a successful rebuild at this time. What if we are at 85 points or less again this year, still a solid 10 points out of the playoffs? Keep in mind, 1/2 the teams make the playoffs every year.

BA keeps laying out a super long time horizon, that way he doesn't really have any shorter term milestones. What team would hire a GM for a rebuild and be ok with, hey we won't make the playoffs the next 5 years, but in year 6 or 7 we will and in years 8-10 we can go further? Murello theoretically first believed in Chayka, then he switched gears and believed in BA. Murello had other issues to deal with, so maybe never pressed BA.

I think BA waited too long to start the rebuild, didn't make moves quick enough and that has prolonged the rebuild. I think what will bite him is the team being misconstructed. We are strong on the wing but weak at C and even weaker at top 4D even with all healthy D men. By year 5, this year, this should have been better solved by now.

Smith had many issues to contend with bringing the team into a new town. He is smart to give BA a year, and bear too. Smith can evaluate this year but also will be looking at the body of work over 4-5 years. I think if we are sub 80 points, BA/Bear are gone. If we are 90+ and in or close to playoffs, then they stay. In between, I think Smith might still make a move.

Smith is an experienced sports club owner and is more likely to pick his own management team, bring in his hand picked guys. Smith has money and options here to hire another GM. My point is, BA and maybe Bear are going to be held accountable.

Seems to me like Smith is doing exactly what you criticize BA for doing with his first year, yet Smith gets called smart for it and BA waited too long.

 

[Jamieh]

Seems to me like Smith is doing exactly what you criticize BA for doing with his first year, yet he gets called smart for it.

Might I suggest there is a slight difference between a new Owner who just jumped on a fast moving train in a new sport to him and a lifelong hockey guy who changed teams? If Bill needed a year to get to know the Coyotes I might suggest he was a bad hire. FTR I don't think he was a bad hire but also don't really think he had ability to act in AZ either.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Might I suggest there is a slight difference between a new Owner who just jumped on a fast moving train in a new sport to him and a lifelong hockey guy who changed teams? If Bill needed a year to get to know the Coyotes I might suggest he was a bad hire. FTR I don't think he was a bad hire but also don't really think he had ability to act in AZ either.

Oh sure there's a difference but that doesn't mean that they both didn't have good reasons for doing it the way they are/did.

BA taking over as Coyotes GM was different than the norm in that he had to spend an abnormal amount of time building and fixing a neglected and understaffed front office and scouting department to get up to par with the rest of the NHL while also managing the team. Kind of like starting from scratch, just like Smith has things he's starting from scratch. Also very important to the success of the rebuild. Imagine how much more work Smith & Co would have if he had bought the team in the shape it was in before BA took over and built the foundation it has now. And I'd expect Smith has more people he can delegate to.

Anyways, I don't think that period of time was all about evaluating. I think prioritizing is what he was doing. I just don't think BA gets enough credit for all the stuff he had to build/fix behind the scenes in that first year. He was a very busy man too, as is Smith even if he has more help.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Seems to me like Smith is doing exactly what you criticize BA for doing with his first year, yet Smith gets called smart for it and BA waited too long.

That was my thought as well, but....

 

[Mangosteen]

Disagree, Smith is saying rebuild is over. We need to make or be fighting for a spot. Trade some of a capital and make a great team. He was doing that when we lost our Dmen. We are lost now, adjust quickly and fill holes.

 

[Jakey53]

Disagree, Smith is saying rebuild is over. We need to make or be fighting for a spot. Trade some of a capital and make a great team. He was doing that when we lost our Dmen. We are lost now, adjust quickly and fill holes.

Not sure where you are hearing that, but Armstrong, the one who Smith brought in said the rebuild is 40 or 44% complete, or something around those lines.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

I haven't heard nor seen anything that hints that Smith has decided the rebuild is over. Quite the opposite actually.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

The Utah Jazz’s ‘vision is very clear.’ Here’s what Will Hardy and his players said about this season

Looks like Smith has approved tanking and a rebuild with the Jazz. This is from Oct. 1st.

"...the team decided to tank for draft positioning."

"This is an opportunity for us to really invest in our youth,”

"Winning games is not the absolute priority for the Jazz this season. Faced with the choice between the veterans who were likely to win games and the young players with significant but hopefully removable warts, the team largely chose the latter. Whether that is enough to deliver a top pick in the upcoming loaded 2025 NBA draft is to be determined.."

 

[Jakey53]

The Utah Jazz’s ‘vision is very clear.’ Here’s what Will Hardy and his players said about this season

Looks like Smith has approved tanking and a rebuild with the Jazz. This is from Oct. 1st.

"This is an opportunity for us to really invest in our youth,”

"Winning games is not the absolute priority for the Jazz this season. Faced with the choice between the veterans who were likely to win games and the young players with significant but hopefully removable warts, the team largely chose the latter."

Smith probably wants both teams to tank so customers stay away so he can complete the renos earlier.

 

[cobra427]

Seems to me like Smith is doing exactly what you criticize BA for doing with his first year, yet Smith gets called smart for it and BA waited too long.

It was obvious and pretty clear for years that the Coyotes needed a full rebuild, long before BA got here. It was obvious the coach wasn't working out and if you rebuild, you would have to move OEL. All fans on this board new those things, it was pretty clear, yet BA waited a year to "evaluate".

I don't think it is clear right now if BA/bear should keep their jobs, I think its up in the air, that is why Smith left it alone for now. I don't think they are safe for years to come. If Smith buys into the BA rebuild model, BA needs to show 90+ points this year as an improvement to show Smith the rebuild is working. I think if we are at 80 points or so, Smith is going to look at BAs 5 years at the helm and say its not enough progress. Owners tend to bring in their own guys.

So, when BA took over, the crystal clear answer was rebuild. Smith buying the club doesn't have a crystal clear answer on BA, he will at the ened of the year though.

 

[TheLegend]

Smith probably wants both teams to tank so customers stay away so he can complete the renos earlier.

Holy shit....... Jakey pulled a real funny.

 

[Jakey53]

Holy shit....... Jakey pulled a real funny.

My friends call me "Dangerfield."

 

[Mangosteen]

It was obvious and pretty clear for years that the Coyotes needed a full rebuild, long before BA got here. It was obvious the coach wasn't working out and if you rebuild, you would have to move OEL. All fans on this board new those things, it was pretty clear, yet BA waited a year to "evaluate".

I don't think it is clear right now if BA/bear should keep their jobs, I think its up in the air, that is why Smith left it alone for now. I don't think they are safe for years to come. If Smith buys into the BA rebuild model, BA needs to show 90+ points this year as an improvement to show Smith the rebuild is working. I think if we are at 80 points or so, Smith is going to look at BAs 5 years at the helm and say its not enough progress. Owners tend to bring in their own guys.

So, when BA took over, the crystal clear answer was rebuild. Smith buying the club doesn't have a crystal clear answer on BA, he will at the ened of the year though.

Smith also wouldn't have the time to replace with how quickly it went down. I believe they will be held accountable this year, maybe even as escape goats.

 

[cobra427]

Smith also wouldn't have the time to replace with how quickly it went down. I believe they will be held accountable this year, maybe even as escape goats.

I agree, Smith didn't have the time to think it through and make a move, do a proper search. BA taking too long to start the rebuild is water under the bridge now. The question Smith has to ask is this: Is BA the right GM to keep improving the club? New GMs come in and rebuild the entire organization sometimes, bring in their guys, this isn't new, its been done before, it does take some time, that is what BA did. I know we were broke and had errors from Chayka, the last anointed great coyote GM on this board.

In year 4 of a rebuild, being the 28th best team and having 77 points, a solid 20 point playoff miss, that doesn't portray a successful rebuild. If the team doesn't turn the corner this year, meaning 90 points or more at least close to a playoff birth, you would have to conclude the rebuild has not been successful or is taking way too long. After 5 years as GM, it might be time for a change.

Has our coach gotten more out of the parts on this roster? We haven't beaten the Vegas odds for points. I think the verdict is mixed, he hasn't been horrible but you can't say he has been great either.

I hope this is not the case, and we make the playoffs, BA is GM of the year and AT is coach of the year. I am mixed on both of them, not saying they should be gone. The new owner is more likely to want a fresh start with his own guys if this season isn't somewhat successful.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

In year 4 of a rebuild, being the 28th best team and having 77 points, a solid 20 point playoff miss, that doesn't portray a successful rebuild. If the team doesn't turn the corner this year, meaning 90 points or more at least close to a playoff birth, you would have to conclude the rebuild has not been successful or is taking way too long. After 5 years as GM, it might be time for a change.

You see the rebuild as failing because of what the W-L record shows right now.

I see lots of very young and very talented kids making the team and doing well for their age, also many prospects playing very well in the KHL, AHL, and Juniors. Developing. That tells me that no matter what the team looks like now the rebuild is on track and looking great. We're stacked with more talent than we've ever had and it's not even close. So my view is much more positive than yours.

What we have right now is growing pains. A normal part of building though the draft. Right now sucks but the future is still really, really bright. The rebuild is absolutely on-track and successful. Seems that you're putting a rush on BA's clearly laid out and patient plan because you disagree with it (that's your right as a fan.) But it's still mostly about the future, not right now.

BA delaying the start of the rebuild in the first year was a delay, sure, but it has no real effect on the actual success of the rebuild "at the end of the day."

Edit:
I'm expecting a big jump in the standings once it all comes together more than I'm expecting gradual increases in the standings along the way.

I think we've had this debate before. I'll let you have the last word and spare everyone going through it again afterwards