Future of the team is incredibly bleak

[HockeyVirus]

You're clearly not smart enough to understand that the team makes more money the deeper they go in the playoffs, and makes a ton more if they win the Cup, so if they were greedy f***s as you claim then they would be putting an amazing team on the ice in order to maximize playoff profits every year.

I'm talking about the players on the core....

 

[Racer88]

75% of tweets are 85% useless.

9 times out of 10 plus or minus 2%

 

[Racer88]

He wears turtlenecks. He doesn't need a fashion district. He needs a woman

Or a dude……whatever floats his boat. Lol

 

[ITM]

Draft picks are just draft picks until they turn into an actual impact player and the Leafs enormous wealth didn't keep them out the basement for a decade +

I'll grant they may one day pull things together, but it's far, far from a guarantee

Who is arguing that either program is guaranteed success?

The point is how an organization builds through draft and patience; That is the primary criticism of Dubas’ tenure.

Unlike Toronto, Detroit hasn’t overextended or sped their plan up due to the perception that nothing is happening.

Whether Detroit has or hasn’t made the playoffs is irrelevant for our comparison. We have made the playoffs for as long as they haven’t and won one round.

As it speaks to success, what is the material difference? That one playoff round we won when Tampa was off it’s game?

The finer point is that while we need stars to align in a precise fashion in order to maximize our closing window of opportunity, Detroit is still building its core and allowing for maturation while not sacrificing their future.

You know who can offer-sheet Knies and bring him in at their set bar and still have more premium draft picks left over than we do? Detroit.

And I’m not sure what club you’re assessing. Detroit isn’t waiting for impact players from their draft, they’re coming waive after waive. Something this fanbase has zero appetite for while simultaneously complaining that we jumped on Tavares.

Their playoffs success is one playoff round win different from ours.

I don’t for a moment discount the difference in quality of Nylander, Matthews and Marner. That’s part of the frustration.

But take the acquisition of Laughton. That’s not something that Yzerman seems prone to gaffe on.

Mark Jankowski was available for a 5th. Well before he was traded I speculated he was a get for a late round pick and fit our needs perfectly.

Whatever it is that compels our group NOT to make smaller moves is confusing to me. But equally so, it’s confusing that the majority of our fanbase seems oblivious to this same approach.

 

[ITM]

SIX (6) years of rebuilding and Detroit still hasn’t sniffed the playoffs - - even after hitting “bullseye after bullseye” in the draft. Imagine if they’d drafted a few gimps like Fred Gauthier and Ty Biggs instead of all those “bullseye” picks,

I have no earthly idea why any Toronto fan would want to blow up the most talented Leafs team in 50 years and go through a rebuild like Detroit with SIX (6) years of no playoffs.

What post are you actually replying to having quoted mine?

Where did I mention blowing things up? The obvious finer point is that if Toronto didn’t sign Tavares, dominoes that fell that inhibited our club from signing necessary depth, don’t happen. And the way that is prevented, is from a slow, patient, come what may - like Detroit is presently committed toward achieving.

Detroit’s predicament is different. From their starting point to the build up. And I’m not sure what imagining drafting Biggs and Gauthier has to do with anything.

As for “bullseye” after “bullseye”, what’s your claim to the contrary that that doesn’t accurately characterize Yzerman’s draft results?

Your post is precisely what’s wrong with our fanbase’s perception. Wanting mutually exclusive things at the same time.

You’re responding to a comparison with a premise I didn’t make, with a criticism toward the very thing (i.e. patience) we needed so that the most talented club in our history had the support needed for success.

 

[FerrisRox]

Yes let's do a "proper rebuild."

Then we can be just like Buffalo and Detroit, and Chicago.

You think the Sabres did a "proper rebuild?"

What a bizarre take.

Why you mention the Sabres as an example of a proper rebuild and then spend a paragraph criticizing the rebuild that the Sabres did?

 

[FerrisRox]

As I mentioned …. winning a series or 3 is good for the fans and ownership. Yes playoff hockey is exciting. But for the players it means nothing. Their goal is to win the cup.

This just isn't true. It absolutely means something to the players.

First and foremost, history has shown us time and time again that much more often than not, teams need to "learn how to win" and that often comes from learning very hard lessons in the playoffs. Going on runs that falls short and learning you have to dig deeper, work harder to get over the last hurdle.

Teams that have become great usually have a few playoff runs where they build confidence, learn to believe in each other, trust their teammates, battle for their teammates, and then they are able to fine tune their roster and the players make adjustments to their game and their preperation and the next spring, they take that step.

I agree with you it's great for the fans and the ownership to win series in the playoffs, but it's also extremely important for the players.

If you don't think that serious doubts and added pressure would creep into the heads of the Leafs Core 4 if they were to find themselves in a Game 7 this spring, I think you're kidding yourself. Had they won a few more series, and even gone to the Semi-Finals, they would have a lot more swagger and confidence in that situation rather than gripping their sticks a little a tighter and worrying about the headlines tomorrow if they fail again.

It definitely matters.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

You think the Sabres did a "proper rebuild?"

What a bizarre take.

Why you mention the Sabres as an example of a proper rebuild and then spend a paragraph criticizing the rebuild that the Sabres did?

Because anybody calling for a rebuild, is calling for that, they want to be Buffalo, Detroit or Chicago because that's what it would be that's what you become.

I'm not interested in a 10+ year rebuild and sure It's only going into year 6 for Chicago but there is no end in sight, they haven't even taken step 1in nearly 6 years they WILL hit 10+ years

I'd rather watch what we have now which is a very good team.

 

[Racer88]

Because anybody calling for a rebuild, is calling for that, they want to be Buffalo, Detroit or Chicago because that's what it would be that's what you become.

I'm not interested in a 10+ year rebuild and sure It's only going into year 6 for Chicago but there is no end in sight, they haven't even taken step 1in nearly 6 years they WILL hit 10+ years

I'd rather watch what we have now which is a very good team.

Are you ok with 1 single round win in the last 8 years?

 

[Puckstuff]

1. Matthews, 27
2. Marner, 27
3. Nylander, 28
4. Knies, 22
5. McMann, 28
6. Carlo, 28
7. McCabe, 31
8. Woll 26
9. Stolarz 31

That's a pretty decent core group of guys imo including your #1 c, two #1 wings, two #1 goalies, and a couple of good D locked up long term with two young power fowards under 29 in Knies and McMann.

Then you have a couple flyers in Robertson and Cowan. Maybe one of them develops.

Then we have OEL and Tanev as some decent older vets who have a couple years of good hockey left. Sure they are older, but every team will need some vets.

Knies - Matthews - Nylander
McMann - ______ - Marner
_______ - ______ - ______
Lorentz - Holmberg - Laughton

________ - Carlo
McCabe - Tanev
OEL - _____

Woll
Stolarz


We need to replace Rielly with a better and younger LD and we need a young center at some point, but those are the only "major" pieces we need imo, We pretty much have all of the other core pieces. We can fix the 3rd line through free agency and the draft. The things that are hard to find like a #1 c, #1 wing, #1 goalie, we have it all long term.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Are you ok with 1 single round win in the last 8 years?

Nope but that doesn't make a rebuild necessary, again look at Buffalo, Detroit and Chicago, is that what you want?

Not me I've been watching for 25 years, I've seen shitty Leaf hockey.

I was there in 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.

I saw it all.

Give me this team that I know has a shot every year over another decade of darkness.

Another Wafflegate.

Another Jerseygate.

f*** that who wants that?

apparently, a lot of people.

At least they think they do but they don't.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

They just need a retool with the core.

A complete rebuild is too extreme and their talent is young enough to revamp the team.

 

[Donnie740]

Nope but that doesn't make a rebuild necessary, again look at Buffalo, Detroit and Chicago, is that what you want?

Give me this team that I know has a shot every year over another decade of darkness.

Another Wafflegate.

Another Jerseygate.

f*** that who wants that?

apparently, a lot of people.

At least they think they do but they don't.

Agree 1000%. Obviously the Leafs have one of the most talented rosters in the entire league, and they’re also near the top of the standings.

It’s very simple to do a “rebuild” when it’s an NHL ‘25 video game, and that’s why people are pushing for the Leafs to rebuild. They have absolutely no clue how difficult it is to have a successful rebuild in the NHL.

 

[NVious]

If Knies really wants 9, the future is bleak indeed. Only thing this core teaches well is speed running entitlement.

As I said last year, what the team should've done is tried to move at least one of the core to give a different look.

At this point I am fine with any/all of them being moved. None of them have ever shown anything, even Rielly is looking like a cap dump at this point. Funny thing is if he wasn't so abysmal this year, this team would be leading the division. Story of the core though, always 2-3 of them playing good-great and the rest doing f*** all.

They're probably getting pumped in round 1/2. Ideally I'd put all of them on the market and see what you can get for any/all of them, if it's equal value do it. There's no real untouchables here. If Matthews/Nylander refuse to waive, move off of Tavares/Marner and bring in 2 of Ekblad/Bennet/Chychrun.

But it's the Leafs so honestly I'd expect all of the core back, Marner 13, Tavares 7.5, Knies 8.5 and repeat the insanity.

Beyond the losing, it's worse that these losers will hold so many team records if they stay, I guess the organization deserves this fate though.

 

[Racer88]

Nope but that doesn't make a rebuild necessary, again look at Buffalo, Detroit and Chicago, is that what you want?

Not me I've been watching for 25 years, I've seen shitty Leaf hockey.

I was there in 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16.

I saw it all.

Give me this team that I know has a shot every year over another decade of darkness.

Another Wafflegate.

Another Jerseygate.

f*** that who wants that?

apparently, a lot of people.

At least they think they do but they don't.

I also am a lifer. I don’t want a scorched earth rebuild but I sure do want a retool with at least 1 or 2 of the core 5 gone. They simply don’t work together. This crazy build model is not a road map for success.
Maybe a Washington retool might work

 

[Racer88]

Agree 1000%. Obviously the Leafs have one of the most talented rosters in the entire league, and they’re also near the top of the standings.

It’s very simple to do a “rebuild” when it’s an NHL ‘25 video game, and that’s why people are pushing for the Leafs to rebuild. They have absolutely no clue how difficult it is to have a successful rebuild in the NHL.

Dubas had a chance to do a retool when some of these guys were tradable but chose not to. Treliving had the opportunity to make meaningful changes but as a new GM in his first year it would have been impossible to leverage Marner in a trade. His hands were tied.
This model is simply not working. We can either be satisfied with losing first round every dam year while we give more and more of the cap to these 4 or we can try it improve on the core.

 

[Nineteen67]

Agree 1000%. Obviously the Leafs have one of the most talented rosters in the entire league, and they’re also near the top of the standings.

It’s very simple to do a “rebuild” when it’s an NHL ‘25 video game, and that’s why people are pushing for the Leafs to rebuild. They have absolutely no clue how difficult it is to have a successful rebuild in the NHL.

There’s the ol’ “All that talent” line. There’s so much talent they don’t even know what the lines are.

 

[Racer88]

Agree 1000%. Obviously the Leafs have one of the most talented rosters in the entire league, and they’re also near the top of the standings.

It’s very simple to do a “rebuild” when it’s an NHL ‘25 video game, and that’s why people are pushing for the Leafs to rebuild. They have absolutely no clue how difficult it is to have a successful rebuild in the NHL.

Many of us do know how hard it is. Our current/rebuild so far hasn’t been a failure. That’s with a lottery win and a couple of very good draft players. However even with that the mix does not work.

 

[Legion34]

Before Columbus? Toronto was pretty bad that season. They didn't qualify for the playoffs. Because of a covid shortened season, they were allowed to a have a mini-series with Columbus.

Toronto was in the day the world stopped

 

[TheDoldrums]

But take the acquisition of Laughton. That’s not something that Yzerman seems prone to gaffe on.

You don't know what bad deadline trade Yzerman might make in Detroit as the team has never been good enough to be a buyer.

But I'd say paying a 2nd round pick to dump Walman only for him to return a 1st for San Jose months later seems like the textbook definition of a gaffe.

 

[thusk]

let see leafs line up

Draft-draft-draft
ufa-ufa-draft
draft-ufa-draft
trade-ufa-ufa

trade-ufa
draft-trade
ufa-ufa

Draft
ufa

8 player from draft

last 3 stanley cup winner actual line up

florida line up

trade-trade-trade
ufa-draft-trade
ufa-draft-ufa

waiver-draft
ufa-trade
ufa-ufa

ufa
trade

tampa

ufa-draft-tradw
trade-draft-draft
trade-trads-draft
ufa-ufa- ufa

draft- trade
trade-draft
ufa-draft

draft-ufa

7 player from draft

colorado
ufa-draft-ufa
trade-trade-trade
ufa-trade-trade
ufa-trade-trade

trade-draft
trade-draft
trade-ufa

trade
trade

3 player from line coming off draft

leafs having more drafted player in their line up than 3 of probably 5favorite... i could continu with dallas and whatever and result would be similar...

The majority of early pick those team keep became bust in NHL. I think a lot of people just overrating draft aspect when your trying to win now.

Draftvpick and prospect its good when you're rebuilding because you don't really have any other choice because your team are just not good enough but whwn it's time to win now, their value are higher about how you can use them to make team better now and not in 8 years like every good team doing.

 

[ITM]

You don't know what bad deadline trade Yzerman might make in Detroit as the team has never been good enough to be a buyer.

But I'd say paying a 2nd round pick to dump Walman only for him to return a 1st for San Jose months later seems like the textbook definition of a gaffe.

Burt the context is: Consistent behaviour,

Toronto, seems to be mandated to move 1sts for rentals who either have much lesser value and/or have no intention of remaining with the club. My criticism for our club and praise for Yzerman is that the latter isn't engaged in constant self-destructive behaviour.

So let's look at Walman: With Seider and Raymond needing raises, Yzerman essentially did with Walman what the Islanders did with Leddy a few years earlier: Paid a team to take on salary with a 2nd, but it wasn't Detroit's 2nd, it was Tampa's that was acquired in the Gibson deal that sent Kiiskinen AND the Lightning 2024 2nd (Another bullseye for Yzerman) to Detroit. He flips the extra 2nd for cap space. A few years earlier he received a 2nd to take on Leddy's contract.

Now balance that series of moves with a number of our 1st round splurges.

Yzerman is at the very worst committing error from his excess. We are repeatedly committing error from our foundation.

 

[notDatsyuk]

let see leafs line up

Draft-draft-draft
ufa-ufa-draft
draft-ufa-draft
trade-ufa-ufa

trade-ufa
draft-trade
ufa-ufa

Draft
ufa

8 player from draft

last 3 stanley cup winner actual line up

florida line up

trade-trade-trade
ufa-draft-trade
ufa-draft-ufa

waiver-draft
ufa-trade
ufa-ufa

ufa
trade

tampa

ufa-draft-tradw
trade-draft-draft
trade-trads-draft
ufa-ufa- ufa

draft- trade
trade-draft
ufa-draft

draft-ufa

7 player from draft

colorado
ufa-draft-ufa
trade-trade-trade
ufa-trade-trade
ufa-trade-trade

trade-draft
trade-draft
trade-ufa

trade
trade

3 player from line coming off draft

leafs having more drafted player in their line up than 3 of probably 5favorite... i could continu with dallas and whatever and result would be similar...

The majority of early pick those team keep became bust in NHL. I think a lot of people just overrating draft aspect when your trying to win now.

Draftvpick and prospect its good when you're rebuilding because you don't really have any other choice because your team are just not good enough but whwn it's time to win now, their value are higher about how you can use them to make team better now and not in 8 years like every good team doing.

According to your list, Tampa also has 8 draft.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Yzerman is at the very worst committing error from his excess. We are repeatedly committing error from our foundation.

But why not contrast our efforts with a comparable team that's been a consistent playoff team for awhile, like a Carolina? It is not difficult to make the Leafs look dumb, I'm not sure why you're so insistent on bringing up Yzerman when again, the team situations are very different. It is a lot easier to not waste assets when you're running a lottery team. Your work might be more appreciated in the Detroit downfall thread on the main board where you'll find plenty that disagree with this kind of praise.

 

[ITM]

But why not contrast our efforts with a comparable team that's been a consistent playoff team for awhile, like a Carolina? It is not difficult to make the Leafs look dumb, I'm not sure why you're so insistent on bringing up Yzerman when again, the team situations are very different. It is a lot easier to not waste assets when you're running a lottery team. Your work might be more appreciated in the Detroit downfall thread on the main board where you'll find plenty that disagree with this kind of praise.

Glad you asked.

First, because I was responding to a claim, so naturally, I am insistent to point out Yzerman (to repeat because it was a response) because of his past success (Tampa) and with respect to replicating the hard model that all signs were pointing to in Toronto but was abandoned in favour of the all too familiar impatient model that never works.

Second to your question: I have compared Toronto to Carolina (in other threads) and it's worse, because Tulsky's yield is constant access to contention while retaining similar elasticity to Detroit with their cache of picks and their cap management. And I was public for my want for our club to approach Tulsky while he was Asst. GM; C'est la vie.

By comparing Detroit and Toronto vs Toronto and Carolina, we can at least see the architecture being built rather than for all intents and purposes, the finished product in Carolina; All we as fans can ask for is access to contention, knowing ultimate success isn't guaranteed.

Third, I really don't care where you think "my work" will be appreciated or if anyone appreciates my opinion. I answer where and when I want and I answer questions specifically, and do my best to justify my opinions with facts that are verifiable and let the cards fall where they may having engaged in due diligence and in good faith. Edited to say: I noticed you didn't continue with Walman; Was my answer satisfactory?

I lived in the area (Windsor-Detroit) for years. I'm kind of a 1b Red Wings "fan". I know the club as well as Toronto's and so the finger trap of constant comparison might be derived from living in the area. But the reason that it's not difficult to make our club look dumb (bookended by Detroit and Carolina) is because there's a culture of needless moves repeated over and over here, while other clubs engage in a much more measured approach, almost as if they've learned from other clubs' mistakes, begging the question as a result.