Speculation: Free Agent Frenzy Part VI: Someone Get Gorton A Vesey Button.

[Off Sides]

Elite talent, schmelite talent. It is good to have but hardly a requirement. You need players that outperform their cap hit (which elite players are generally great at), a team that does not wilt under pressure, a team that stays relatively healthy and the right bounces.

The 2012-13 Rangers is in my opinion the best Ranger team since 94 and one of the very best cap era teams, but they were decimated by injuries. When healthy they could trot out THREE lines that would put up a +67 5v5 xGF% (Hagelin-Stepan-Callahan, Clowe-Brassard-Nash, Pyatt-Richards-Zuccarello), a fantastic defence when healthy (McDonagh-Girardi, Staal-Strålman, Del Zotto-Eminger) and prime Hank. But Clowe and the entire D got hurt and then Torts and Richards imploded and that was that.

Clowe was already injured when the Rangers made that trade, then he just kept getting more injured. San Jose would not have traded him if they did not know there was something amiss as they too were in playoff position when that deal went down.

And I'm going to disagree that teams do not need some level of elite offensive talent to win a cup, in just about every playoffs since the salary cap the Cup winning team had some group of players who went near to, at, or above a point per game. They may not have been elite regular season players in that regard, most were close to that level, but other then, I think the 2nd time Chicago won the Cup, every Cup winner had that group. Even Boston had Bergeron, Krejci, Horton who were at .87 .92 and .81 ppg. Rangers have never had a group of players get close to that, they had Brassard, Zbad, and a couple others over the various playoffs get near to that ppg level but never had a group of players do so in the same run. (I mean players who played in more than a couple games)

Not trying to say that is the only way to win a Cup, but it's pretty difficult to find many Cup winning rosters since the salary cap who did not have some group of players who were putting up ~.8 - 1 ppg which would be considered elite, near elite level for the regular season. (I would assume using p/60 with some amount of minimum minutes instead of ppg would also be pretty similar)

Also, nice to see you posting again.

“People talk about a concussion in San Jose but I was out with more of a neck injury

Devils' Ryane Clowe says concussion was only his second but admits there's pressure to live up to contract

 

[hi]

You are stretching when you include Los Angeles in this conversation. Granted, Doughty was #2 but Kopitar was #11. Beyond that, their other top players came in trade. And you conviently excluded Detroit 2007-08.

Without Doughty, the Kings come nowhere close to winning their cups.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

You are stretching when you include Los Angeles in this conversation. Granted, Doughty was #2 but Kopitar was #11. Beyond that, their other top players came in trade. And you conviently excluded Detroit 2007-08.

You aren’t wrong but their big trades included moving Schenn (who was a 5OA) and Johnson (3OA).

Having those kinds of players and the depth to afford to move them is what we should be aiming for.

 

[Blue Blooded]

Clowe was already injured when the Rangers made that trade, then he just kept getting more injured. San Jose would not have traded him if they did not know there was something amiss as they too were in playoff position when that deal went down.

And I'm going to disagree that teams do not need some level of elite offensive talent to win a cup, in just about every playoffs since the salary cap the Cup winning team had some group of players who went near to, at, or above a point per game. They may not have been elite regular season players in that regard, most were close to that level, but other then, I think the 2nd time Chicago won the Cup, every Cup winner had that group. Even Boston had Bergeron, Krejci, Horton who were at .87 .92 and .81 ppg. Rangers have never had a group of players get close to that, they had Brassard, Zbad, and a couple others over the various playoffs get near to that ppg level but never had a group of players do so in the same run. (I mean players who played in more than a couple games)

Not trying to say that is the only way to win a Cup, but it's pretty difficult to find many Cup winning rosters since the salary cap who did not have some group of players who were putting up ~.8 - 1 ppg which would be considered elite, near elite level for the regular season. (I would assume using p/60 with some amount of minimum minutes instead of ppg would also be pretty similar)

Also, nice to see you posting again.

Stepan and Nash were close to PPG in the reg season, Hagelin and Richards produced at a 1st line level 5v5, and the Rangers were the best 5v5 xGF team in the league - despite having no forward depth at all for half the season and Gaborik producing at a 3rd/4th line rate. Clowe was very good until he got hurt and Brass/Zucc were great throughout. When healthy we could form three legit 1st lines, two legit top pairings and a bottom pairing that could dominate the soft minutes they were given. The 4th line had been horrid all year but came together at the end.

It was crazy how good hockey that team was playing down the stretch. I was certain we'd take it all going into the playoffs and was shocked at how the play fell apart completely - we failed to outplay an utterly mediocre version of the Caps and had nothing against Boston.

We had a better roster in terms of names in 2013-14, adding Kreider, Pouliot, Moore and MSL, but many players were not as good (post-concussion Nash, Stepan, Hagelin, Girardi, Callahan before the trade).

 

[nyr2k2]

I'm not saying nobody wants to play for the Rangers. Just that there are many reasons to pick a different team. It could be geography (Maroon wants to live closer to his son, for instance), wanting to compete immediately, wanting to play with certain players/for a certain coach. Every reason people can think of to pick the Rangers can be applied to other teams. If, in the case that was discussed, Hartnell turned down the Rangers for any of these reasons, it would not surprise me. Not every player sees the Rangers the way we see it.

I have made this point before, pertaining to both the Yankees and the Rangers in particular. New York is an amazing city, the teams have a rich background (particularly the Yankees), there are enormous endorsement opportunities, you get the spotlight, the teams are all loaded, etc. But, a lot of guys don't really care about many of those things. Some guys might come from some random place in Manitoba or Saskatchewan and have no desire to play in the city. Some guys might not want the spotlight. And on and on. It's like with the Yankees, for what seemed like 15 years there, it felt like any free agent they wanted they would get. Now, there are other teams in really nice markets that have huge budgets and offer a different lifestyle. So it's no longer a given that guys will sign there because money and the Yankees.

I'm not saying that guys don't or wouldn't want to play here. I think we have a pretty easy sell in most cases. Unless a guy really wants to head back to Canada or hates the spotlight, New York is an incredibly alluring place for a 20-something earning millions. Now, at this current juncture, guys might be wary of signing here because we're in a rebuild. It's why I'm not sold on the concept that many have proposed of trading Hayes, Zuccarello, Spooner, Namestnikov, Vesey, whoever else, etc. If we do that, and basically have a roster with just a small handful of established veterans that have missed the playoffs two years running and appear to still be in the midst of a rebuild, I'm not certain that guys like Panarin or Karlsson would necessarily want to sign here. There would likely be numerous other teams with more competitive and established rosters where they could sign.

Now, if you have no interest in pursuing those guys, and instead really want to build this thing fully from within, then that's not a problem. However I like the young talent we've assembled, and think adding one of those top free agents to complement the young guys and remaining veterans would be a good plan. I know a lot disagree, but that's where I'm at. I'm okay trading two, maybe three of our guys at the deadline, but not doing a full dismantling of the veterans.

 

[Mac n Gs]

I’m just hoping Gorton doesn’t have the same issue as Sather with never having a drafted player surpass 60 points in a season.

Stepan was on pace for it during the shortened season, but we still haven’t done it over a full 82 games. Could be a talent issue, but it could also be an ice time issue.

 

[Off Sides]

Stepan and Nash were close to PPG in the reg season, Hagelin and Richards produced at a 1st line level 5v5, and the Rangers were the best 5v5 xGF team in the league - despite having no forward depth at all for half the season and Gaborik producing at a 3rd/4th line rate. Clowe was very good until he got hurt and Brass/Zucc were great throughout. When healthy we could form three legit 1st lines, two legit top pairings and a bottom pairing that could dominate the soft minutes they were given. The 4th line had been horrid all year but came together at the end.

It was crazy how good hockey that team was playing down the stretch. I was certain we'd take it all going into the playoffs and was shocked at how the play fell apart completely - we failed to outplay an utterly mediocre version of the Caps and had nothing against Boston.

We had a better roster in terms of names in 2013-14, adding Kreider, Pouliot, Moore and MSL, but many players were not as good (post-concussion Nash, Stepan, Hagelin, Girardi, Callahan before the trade).

My post was more about the playoff levels, not so much the regular season levels. I know playoffs are a small sample size, but they are also a different sample size given the series format, only playing against other playoff level teams, as well as subjectively a different level of officiating,

I tend to agree that was one of, if not their best overall rosters, but for whatever reason (likely the decline of Richards, Torts and injuries) they still just did not reach the level of offensive production other Cup rosters have.

 

[Off Sides]

Doughty being a #2 kind of tarnishes the debate that LA is different in my mind.

The #1, and #2 draft slots are by my estimate the far most likely spots to get an elite level player.

Boston (sans Seguin) and Detroit are the two who in my opinion are the outliers since the salary cap, and even they ended up with players who played at an elite level in the playoffs which coincided with their Cup winning years. (Not sure given the level of scouting, and different world view, now versus then that the players Detroit picked in those later rounds would not have been identified and drafted much earlier by todays standards.)

It's not impossible to draft outside of the top 5 or so and end up with those types of players, but the organization is going to have to have a whole ton of picks, along with really good scouting and luck to even have a chance to beat the odds.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Cups are won by good hockey players, good team chemistry, good coaching, timely performances, and some puck and Injury luck.

On another note, my weekly reminder to management to check out Jurco, Stewart, and Postma.....

 

[Cag29]

We have never had a top 5 pick. 2019 is time to have it.

 

[Irishguy42]

We have never had a top 5 pick. 2019 is time to have it.

Last time the Rangers had a Top 5 pick was 19 years ago.

4th overall, Pavel Brendl.

And then they picked in the Top 5 four times before that, though that technically doesn't count because they were all before 1967 when there was only 6 teams

 

[silverfish]

I’m just hoping Gorton doesn’t have the same issue as Sather with never having a drafted player surpass 60 points in a season.

Stepan was on pace for it during the shortened season, but we still haven’t done it over a full 82 games. Could be a talent issue, but it could also be an ice time issue.

Buch will do it next year if he gets the ice time. Chytil and Kravtsov have the potential. Barring any other major surprises, I think that's it. Gropp has 40g potential though, for sure.

 

[Irishguy42]

Buch will do it next year if he gets the ice time. Chytil and Kravtsov have the potential. Barring any other major surprises, I think that's it. Gropp has 40g potential though, for sure.

In a single beer league game, probably.

 

[silverfish]

In a single beer league game, probably.

James Neal NHL level release.

 

[Irishguy42]

James Neal NHL level release.

AHL everything else

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

James Neal NHL level release.

That reminds me of the guy who once said he has Byfuglien's technique, Gretzky physical strength and Lundqvist's puck-handing

 

[silverfish]

AHL everything else

I think that's being generous.

 

[Irishguy42]

I think that's being generous.

I'm sorry. I meant to clarify. AIHL, not AHL.

Not American Hockey League, but Australian Ice Hockey League

 

[silverfish]

I'm sorry. I meant to clarify. AIHL, not AHL.

Not American Hockey League, but Australian Ice Hockey League

Still too generous.

 

[Tawnos]

I'm not saying nobody wants to play for the Rangers. Just that there are many reasons to pick a different team. It could be geography (Maroon wants to live closer to his son, for instance), wanting to compete immediately, wanting to play with certain players/for a certain coach. Every reason people can think of to pick the Rangers can be applied to other teams. If, in the case that was discussed, Hartnell turned down the Rangers for any of these reasons, it would not surprise me. Not every player sees the Rangers the way we see it.

And I’m not saying that’s what you’re saying.

The Rangers have historically had a leg up on other cities. Sure, some players have reasons they might want to play elsewhere... but claiming NY isn’t special is just ignoring the past.

 

[Mac n Gs]

Buch will do it next year if he gets the ice time. Chytil and Kravtsov have the potential. Barring any other major surprises, I think that's it. Gropp has 40g potential though, for sure.

Yup, definitely possible that Buch ends up being Slats’ best offensive draft pick.

I can’t comment too much further until we see how Quinn’s system plays out. I’m expecting to see our offense dip while we improve defensively, and it’s tough to gauge how different prospects will develop within that structure. The trends our guys have shown is at least very promising.

 

[nyr2k2]

Still too generous.

I'd wager dollars to doughnuts he has a decent AHL season, and eventually a good AHL career (if he doesn't go overseas). And FWIW, he does have an NHL-level shot with a great release. He just doesn't know how to get in position to let it loose at the professional level.

 

[silverfish]

I'd wager dollars to doughnuts he has a decent AHL season, and eventually a good AHL career (if he doesn't go overseas). And FWIW, he does have an NHL-level shot with a great release. He just doesn't know how to get in position to let it loose at the professional level.

Yeah, I know. I'm just being an extra jerk because of some of the hotter takes that were made about him in the past when it was kind of obvious, if you did the dirty work, that they were all... a little too generous.

 

[Edge]

Yeah, I know. I'm just being an extra jerk because of some of the hotter takes that were made about him in the past when it was kind of obvious, if you did the dirty work, that they were all... a little too generous.

Not really sure I remember too many hot takes on Gropp, at least in comparison to the complaining.

He's never really been a terribly popular pick or prospect overall.

 

[Gardner McKay]

Yup, definitely possible that Buch ends up being Slats’ best offensive draft pick.

I can’t comment too much further until we see how Quinn’s system plays out. I’m expecting to see our offense dip while we improve defensively, and it’s tough to gauge how different prospects will develop within that structure. The trends our guys have shown is at least very promising.

I don't know. You may be right but I wouldn't be completely shocked if it didn't dip. Improving defensively doesn't necessarily have to come at the sacrifice of offense. I think we are just all so traumatized from how AV did things that we just default to these beliefs.

Rather than forcing Buchnevich into a defensive role on a defensive line (like AV did), I think Quinn lets Buch go absolutely haywire on offense. Let him play to his strengths. Then, you begin to reinforce the little things that currently aren't being done. A kid that can't do the things he knows well isn't going to improve upon the things he does not know well. I would guess we see some high scoring, defensively awful and creatively fantastic hockey in the first few months. Quinn will let his players do what they know best while he assesses the team.