I just don't know how it works without moving out Chabot and bringing in a defensive LHD. That would make some sense but it'd have to be a bigger trade to make it work unless it's a 3 team deal...
Ottawa Senators Eyeing Erik Karlsson Reunion, According to Sportsnet Analyst
The Ottawa Senators could be looking to get Erik Karlsson on the trade market, according to the Sportsnet analyst Nick Kypreos.www.houseofhockey.net
Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5
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frightenedinmatenum2
Registered User
Sanderson-Zub
Chabot-Jensen
Mantinpalo/Kleven-Karlsson
That would be the base of the D, but it wouldn't have to be set in stone during the game. Karlsson could take shifts on any pairing, especially at home where they can line match and load up o-zone faceoffs with Karlsson and Chabot or Karlsson and Sanderson.
If Green ever gets to the point where he trusts Mantinpalo or Kleven as a legitimate 18 minute a night option, then we have three legitimate pairings that can each play 18-22 minutes, depending on the makeup of the game.
In season, Norris would have to go. In the summer, they might have some more flexibility to move multiple contracts to make room like Perron. The problem is, if it's something like Perron for Karlsson with retention as the base, where do we get the assets for Karlsson? I don't know if Pittsburgh can get a 1st for him, but that's probably their aim. If Pittsburgh sees the market for Karlsson as weak, to the point that taking Norris looks like a solid idea, even if they hope they can try to flip him 2-3 seasons down the line, that's probably how a trade works.
HoweHullOrr
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- Oct 3, 2013
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Some posters are really underestimating the value of having depth at center here.
Kypreos & House of Hockey.Ottawa Senators Eyeing Erik Karlsson Reunion, According to Sportsnet Analyst
The Ottawa Senators could be looking to get Erik Karlsson on the trade market, according to the Sportsnet analyst Nick Kypreos.
I think our recent struggles have shown how important center depth is. A Norris trade is impossible without a 3C coming back.Some posters are really underestimating the value of having depth at center here.
Kypreos & House of Hockey.
A Batherson trade is more plausible and I don't want to give up yet if he's about to break his slump. I really would like to Get Rakel but it'd take a Batherson or similar big package and that's a step back.
Same with Tuch whose only got 1 year left to FA and a ?10? team no trade list. I am looking at McCann though from Kraken, would fill that 2LW position nicely but it'd be a 1st plus. That I *might* do... but also don't want to trade a first.
So apparently Kypreos said:
"Ottawa as a potential landing spot is intriguing. They're looking to add another top-four defenceman, and there's some thought of bringing him home again.
But it would take a big financial commitment by ownership to do it and management's belief that he won't disrupt the growing chemistry led by Jake Sanderson.
If those hurdles clear, the Sens would have to make the deal and retention worthwhile for the Penguins, who are seeking young and controllable assets."
I would welcome Karlsson back at RD as I think he would add a lot to our ES attack. But the cost in $$$ and assets is a concern.
Someone said the Sens are trying to add a top D. I agree that would be a great addition, particularly if Karlsson would replace our 3RD (Hamonic, JBD and Matinpalo). I would pay a 2nd round draft pick for him IF Pittsburgh would retain the maximum allowed by the league. I would include Perron to get rid of his $4M contract to help make the acquisition affordable under the salary cap ceiling. We would still need to add a top 6 F somehow.
"Ottawa as a potential landing spot is intriguing. They're looking to add another top-four defenceman, and there's some thought of bringing him home again.
But it would take a big financial commitment by ownership to do it and management's belief that he won't disrupt the growing chemistry led by Jake Sanderson.
If those hurdles clear, the Sens would have to make the deal and retention worthwhile for the Penguins, who are seeking young and controllable assets."
I would welcome Karlsson back at RD as I think he would add a lot to our ES attack. But the cost in $$$ and assets is a concern.
Someone said the Sens are trying to add a top D. I agree that would be a great addition, particularly if Karlsson would replace our 3RD (Hamonic, JBD and Matinpalo). I would pay a 2nd round draft pick for him IF Pittsburgh would retain the maximum allowed by the league. I would include Perron to get rid of his $4M contract to help make the acquisition affordable under the salary cap ceiling. We would still need to add a top 6 F somehow.
WallyD
Registered User
- Nov 20, 2022
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It's not just style of play between the coaching. Can't ignore how (or if) a coach actually corrects, as in do we see the same negatives repeating themselves over and over. To me the biggest difference is that we can't ignore that Smith WAY overplayed Chabot to his playing detriment. Said this for just shy of forever, that if you play a D too many minutes they are forced to budget their effort accordingly, proportionally. I would rather see a guy play 100% for 22 mins than 80% for 28 mins.
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WallyD
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By far the biggest issue I had with Smith and any other coach is when they NEVER correct a damn thing. Mistakes are acceptable, expected, they happen, but constant repeats of the same issues are not. To me he let the young kids run the show, run and gun, blow the zone, cough up pucks way too often with risky plays. To me he also was NEVER able to impart the importance of time of game decision making too. He never seemed to to discipline anybody, even mystifyingly for just a shift. Good to be rational and fair with the players but that doesn't mean you should be a frigging doormat or their best friend.
Micklebot
Moderator
- Apr 27, 2010
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We didn't really have a choice but to overplay Chabot, and we immediately saw a reduction in Chabot's icetime to the same level Green is using him when Sanderson joined the team,
The issue was Doiron not building a flushed out D corps,
There were absolutely issues with DJ, but you need to evaluate coaches with the context of the roster in mind, and our roster never had a well constructed D corps while DJ was there. He could have just played Chabot less, but we'd have been a worse team for it which is saying something.
Nowhere, just bored Sens fans with no hockey for two weeks. Originated in general from Garrioche and his league sources from what I gather.
The proposals in here are terrible. Undervaluing what Norris is, while being terrified of budgets as though EM was still at the reigns. Boeser for Norris would net us a worse defensive player, who plays wing, and scores less, plus depth scraps that we don’t want or need, for no reason.
Norris has been very good for us, and getting better after missing a ton of hockey, has been very physical and his shoulder has held up fine, and is an integral part of our new 200 foot game.
Trading him for quantity would be a step back for the team, and would have me second guessing Staios.
Having said that. Of we’re trading Norris, it better be for a guy like Crouse +. That is what this team needs up front if we absolutely have to trade a key player. If it doesn’t significantly move the needle, the team will be pissed.
Norris is not a player that needs to be dumped.
The best part of this post is the pic of Neiler back in the ice!
Obligatory photoshopped picture of the player in his new teams jersey.
Erik Karlsson @ 6.5M
Noel Acciari @ 2M
Josh Norris @ 8M
JBD @ 805k
1st++ From VAN (Boeser trade return)*
Hoglander (Cap dump to subsidize Norris)
Soucy (Cap dump to subsidize Norris)
*Boeser won't re-sign in Vancouver. Prior to this trade, Vancouver trades Boeser to a contender for a 1st++
- Pittsburgh does not want Norris for Karlsson, they want futures for Karlsson.
- Pittsburgh needs to both retain and take cap dumps to get a late 1st for Karlsson.
- Vancouver wants Norris, but only if we retain or take back bad contracts.
- If we are taking back negative value contracts to move Norris, we would rather take back Karlsson's @ 6.5M than Soucy+Hoglander+late 1st.
- We will assume Boeser won't re-sign in Vancouver and they trade him prior to this trade to get a late 1st, which they will flip for Norris The same way they flipped their NYR 1st to Pittsburgh for Pettersson.
- We will assume there is no real trade market for Soucy, and if his options are to go to an American team where top minutes will be available for him vs staying in VAN where it isn't working, he will choose to waive to hang out with Crosby, even in a rebuild.
WallyD
Registered User
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You make some really good points here, solid post. I still offer that DJ seemingly never correcting what appeared to many as obvious repeat issues and never imparted discipline. This too ties to team performance. I'd be the last guy to argue significant GM team construction issues weren't a factor, but those issues do not negate other contribution factors related to coaching decisions, or lack thereof.
frightenedinmatenum2
Registered User
That's actually Tim O'Neil. A highly skilled forward we will sign out of the Finnish Elite league.
Pittsburgh ain't doing us any favors and retaining half his contract for a 2nd isn't good value for them.
Goaltending is better but our defensive play is also helping the goaltending. Its important with young players to teach them how to play on the defensive end and a bit more accountability in their game
thats a massive overpayment to get rid of Perron
Micklebot
Moderator
- Apr 27, 2010
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Sure, that's why I compared DJ to MacLean, we had the same penchant for breakdowns back then (even though we probably had a more experienced roster).
Obviously the defensive play helps out the goalie, but put Korpisalo in net in 2013 or 14 instead of Anderson and there's no way MacLean is nominated for Jack Adams.
frightenedinmatenum2
Registered User
I think even if Perron isn't as advertised, he is still likely valued by the team for his leadership. I can't see them paying to get rid of him when they put such a strong emphasis on adding veteran leaders.
A lot of people suggested something around Saad for Perron before we knew Saad was terminating his contract, but that's a veteran-for-veteran swap, and Perron going back to St.Louis after his families issues is a different dynamic than paying to dump him to a random team since his family apparently still considers a suburb of St.Louis one of their homes.
A lot of people suggested something around Saad for Perron before we knew Saad was terminating his contract, but that's a veteran-for-veteran swap, and Perron going back to St.Louis after his families issues is a different dynamic than paying to dump him to a random team since his family apparently still considers a suburb of St.Louis one of their homes.
frightenedinmatenum2
Registered User
I agree with you in theory, but retaining half is the same as selling Karlsson for a 2nd and 8.75M in cash. He is of no use to them in a rebuild, and with his name in trade rumours he could border on a distraction. So Pittsburgh gets value just by dumping part of the contract.
They also likely want to move him before his 5M signing bonus is paid (likely on July 1st, but some players have different dates).
His NMC and his term at his age is going to make it difficult for them to build up a market.
I doubt they retain half, but a soft return wouldn't surprise me given the situation. What they originally paid for him was a projected late 1st, and they got a 3rd back, and San Jose took multiple bad contracts. That was after e Norris winning season.
I've liked his play as of late and little chance to move him. Gregor I wonder about but his speed is useful.
If Ottawa is after a top4 D does that mean we are moving an established one? Lots of questions right now, not a lot of cap space.
We definitely seem to be in way more rumors than our cap space would allow us to pursue. Are we really going to make major changes in a playoff race, or like last year, are we just positioning things for the summer?
aragorn
Do The Right Thing
- Aug 8, 2004
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Changing centres makes no sense to me especially if it hurts the room, not only is Norris close friends with Tkachuk he is also close to Stutzle & we were just starting to see again his skillset & scoring potential. I think we could acquire Crouse without losing a piece like Norris, it's clear that Crouse seems to want out of Utah, it's not working & needs a change.
Ottawa has several pieces that could be put together in a package to acquire Crouse, for example, 1st rd pick, 2nd rd pick, Gregor, Gaudette, Highmore, Perron, Amadio, Reinhardt, JBD, Forsberg, Sogaard, Montgomery, Halliday, Matinpalo & Guennette are all possibilities in a package.
I bet they would retain half of someone game in with a better offer than 2nd round pick
frightenedinmatenum2
Registered User
Dan Patrick
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- Mar 11, 2020
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SenatorsLegionary
Member of Sens Army
I mean McBain is a great target, he plays the style of game that we covet lately, I just feel like Utah's management has identified him as a piece they really want to build around. Crouse has a similar style of play, but seems more expendable given Utah's prospect pool being considerably deeper on wingers than on centres.
Hayton is interesting, it's a bit tough for me to get a good feel for his value so I definitely might be undervaluing him. I seem to remember reading through a thread on the main trade board over the summer where the consensus was trending to value him as a mid round pick (3rd/4th rounder). He seems to have enjoyed a bit of a bounce back season so far so I felt as though his value improved since then but difficult to gauge by how much exactly. I was considering him at around a 2nd rounder in terms of draft pick value so I was viewing it kind of like Crouse + 2nd for Norris, but again I might be off with that valuation.
If I compare Hayton directly with Norris, my opinion is that Norris is the better player offensively and defensively. Hayton does offer a two way game, but isn't quite at Norris' level defensively and I'm not familiar with him enough to know if he can be depended on the PK like Norris can. Hayton is the better playmaker and probably tops out as a 40-50 point pass-first C. A healthy Norris can be a 30 goal, 60-65 point player at his full potential. Although both players are producing similarly so far this season, does Crouse bridge the gap between those two players? You're probably right that it's slanted towards Ottawa would require an add on our side to make it work.
Ottawa Senators Eyeing Erik Karlsson Reunion, According to Sportsnet Analyst
The Ottawa Senators could be looking to get Erik Karlsson on the trade market, according to the Sportsnet analyst Nick Kypreos.
I just don’t see the fit
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