Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 5

[DackellDuck]

Matinpalo sure looked great on that first Dallas goal

He didn’t look great, no. Brannstrom probably would’ve have fallen down at the blue line after being nudged and they would have scored anyway, though.

We’ve seen what he is. It’s no good.

Two other teams have agreed since he left here.

 

[HSF]

pick up Branny

 

[GCK]

Considering we have insanely awful depth at both LD and RD, and with Brannstrom being able/willing to play on either side, picking him up should be an easy decision.

Having said this, we'll pass on him to play the likes of Matinpalo, Guenette, etc... for some reason.

Mantipalo has already shown to be much better.

 

[HSF]

Not trading for Carrier was such a huge miss. Our defense would be set with him

 

[GCK]

Not trading for Carrier was such a huge miss. Our defense would be set with him

Was he shopped or did he get the Ryan O’Reilly treatment?

 

[HSF]

Was he shopped or did he get the Ryan O’Reilly treatment?

if you didn't know and arent checking in on what was a last place team on their players to see who is avaliable you aren't doing your job as the GM

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I would have liked Carrier, but also would have had to send out a decent salary to fit him in.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Not trading for Carrier was such a huge miss. Our defense would be set with him

No cap space and no expendable young RD to acquire him.

Habs were uniquely positioned with a boat load of surplus young defensemen to take advantage of Barry Trotz's idiocy in trading Carrier 28 games after signing him to a 3 year deal.

Hughes and Gorton have done an incredible job for Montreal. Super annoying.

 

[Micklebot]

Not trading for Carrier was such a huge miss. Our defense would be set with him

How were we fitting his 3.75 in?

 

[GCK]

if you didn't know and arent checking in on what was a last place team on their players to see who is avaliable you aren't doing your job as the GM

And again I ask was Trotz giving Carrier the Ryan O’Reilly treatment ?

 

[DackellDuck]

How were we fitting his 3.75 in?

Tell Perron to take the rest of the year to rehab and LTIR him. It wouldn’t be hard to “game” the system with a 37 year old that has a back injury.

Staios would never do that because he wants to treat players a certain way, but if it was Vegas, that’s what they would’ve done.

With that said I’d rather get Schenn. We need someone who can clear a crease on the PK.

I also doubt they want anyone with term though. Yakemchuk is probably pencilled in next year and they’ll get a 1-year UFA for depth.

 

[Micklebot]

Tell Perron to take the rest of the year to rehab and LTIR him. It wouldn’t be hard to “game” the system with a 37 year old that has a back injury.

Staios would never do that because he wants to treat players a certain way, but if it was Vegas, that’s what they would’ve done.

With that said I’d rather get Schenn. We need someone who can clear a crease on the PK.

I also doubt they want anyone with term though. Yakemchuk is probably pencilled in next year and they’ll get a 1-year UFA for depth.

So, magically disappear Perron. Unfortunately the team lives in the real world, and you can't force a player to fake an injury once healthy. Maybe if Perron was having surgery we could have tried that, but it isn't really something you can whip together before the halfway point of the year when a player unexpectedly hits the trade market.

With Zub back, and Matinpalo playing pretty well, I'm happy with our D right now tbh, We need help up front more than on D with Perron and Amadio out.

 

[PlayersLtd]

Tell Perron to take the rest of the year to rehab and LTIR him. It wouldn’t be hard to “game” the system with a 37 year old that has a back injury.

Staios would never do that because he wants to treat players a certain way, but if it was Vegas, that’s what they would’ve done.

With that said I’d rather get Schenn. We need someone who can clear a crease on the PK.

I also doubt they want anyone with term though. Yakemchuk is probably pencilled in next year and they’ll get a 1-year UFA for depth.

Any GM that has a rookie D that just turned 20 'penciled in' isn't doing himself any favours. Yak is far from a guarantee next year and the team should be built under the assumption that he isn't going to make it so that you're not cornering yourself into rushing him. If he makes it it's a bonus and he plays in the 6/7 spot.

 

[frightenedinmatenum2]

Claiming Brannstrom would be risky since it would burn our only open contract spot. He is also very likely to clear, so if we did want him it would make more sense to try to trade for him. That way, we can at least move out a body.

I don't think he is a major upgrade on what we have.

 

[DackellDuck]

So, magically disappear Perron. Unfortunately the team lives in the real world, and you can't force a player to fake an injury once healthy. Maybe if Perron was having surgery we could have tried that, but it isn't really something you can whip together before the halfway point of the year when a player unexpectedly hits the trade market.

With Zub back, and Matinpalo playing pretty well, I'm happy with our D right now tbh, We need help up front more than on D with Perron and Amadio out.

Ask him to fake something? The guy is 37 years old, has a back injury, and hasn’t even taken a body check in a practice yet. He’s been out for almost 6 weeks now and there’s no timetable for his return. He’s not healthy. If he was healthy he’d be playing.

It wouldn’t be faking anything, it’d be giving him a couple extra months to recover while on LTIR, which is something many teams have done before. It’s not exactly a crazy scenario. It happens. In the real world!

The guy obviously has a real, and serious, issue. It’s 100% an option should the team want to go that route.

Any GM that has a rookie D that just turned 20 'penciled in' isn't doing himself any favours. Yak is far from a guarantee next year and the team should be built under the assumption that he isn't going to make it so that you're not cornering yourself into rushing him. If he makes it it's a bonus and he plays in the 6/7 spot.

Right, but you don’t add a 3.75M player with 2 years left on his deal after this one.

To hedge for Yakemchuk not being ready, you sign a veteran #6 in the summer to a 1 year contract, or bring back JBD.

 

[darude]

No way we pickup Brannstrom. We didn't bother with a QO in the offseason, if the team thought there was value there surely they would've re-signed him or traded him, rather than released him.

 

[Micklebot]

Ask him to fake something? The guy is 37 years old, has a back injury, and hasn’t even taken a body check in a practice yet. He’s been out for almost 6 weeks now and there’s no timetable for his return!

It wouldn’t be faking anything, it’d be giving him a couple extra months to recover while on LTIR, which is something many teams have done before.

The guy obviously has a real, and serious, issue. It’s 100% an option should the team want to go that route.

He's started skating and is progressing. They are clearly seeing progress, and if he wasn't expected to play this season, he'd have gone for surgery by now, so yeah, it would likely become faking it if you keep him out another 40 games. Nobody is saying he isn't currently hurt, I'm saying we can't make moves assuming He's on LTIR for the remainder of the year.

 

[DackellDuck]

He's started skating and is progressing. They are clearly seeing progress, and if he wasn't expected to play this season, he'd have gone for surgery by now, so yeah, it would likely become faking it if you keep him out another 40 games. Nobody is saying he isn't currently hurt, I'm saying we can't make moves assuming He's on LTIR for the remainder of the year.

How long did Kucherov and Stone “skate” for before being taken off LTIR? Jani Hakanpaa has been skating in Toronto since October.

You could make Perron go on LTIR for the rest of the year, and then make moves. That’s an option available to the team. It was available to them for the last several weeks. It would just require them getting Perron on board.

There’s no neutral arbitrator who decides when players are healthy to play. It’s up to the team and the player.

At this point, they’ve just chosen not to do it. But you act like it’s some sort of impossibility.

The reality is he hasn’t taken a full practice yet, so he very well may not play again. It’s a back injury. He’s 37. And hockey has body contact.

 

[Micklebot]

How long did Kucherov and Stone “skate” for before being taken off LTIR? Jani Hakanpaa has been skating in Toronto since October.

You could make Perron go on LTIR for the rest of the year, and then make moves. That’s an option available to the team. It was available to them for the last several weeks. It would just require them getting Perron on board.

At this point, they’ve just chosen not to do it. But you act like it’s some sort of impossibility.

The reality is he hasn’t taken a full practice yet, so he very well may not play again. It’s a back injury. He’s 37. And hockey has body contact.

You can't make players go to LTIR, they are to be taken off LTIR when they are medically cleared to play. People are critical of VGK and TBL because they likely did get their players to fake being unable to play longer than they actually were but both those guys at least had surgery, giving the gambit far more credibility that putting a guy on LTIR for the final 51 games.

Perron will almost certainly be back before the end of the year, he is rehabbing without surgery for a reason, because he expects to be back. That's reality. Magically LTIRing the guy for the rest of the season is fantasy

 

[DackellDuck]

You can't make players go to LTIR, they are to be taken off LTIR when they are medically cleared to play. People are critical of VGK and TBL because they likely did get their players to fake being unable to play longer than they actually were but both those guys at least had surgery, giving the gambit far more credibility that putting a guy on LTIR for the final 51 games.

Perron will almost certainly be back before the end of the year, he is rehabbing without surgery for a reason, because he expects to be back. That's reality. Magically LTIRing the guy for the rest of the season is fantasy

It’s not. It’s a real route they could go. Again, he’s injured with no timetable to return. He and the team have chosen a certain rehab program. They could’ve chosen a different one that would have kept him out an additional 3 months. They could still do so and put him on LTIR retroactively. Maybe they do if a more attractive trade target becomes available. All of a sudden, Perron might have a “setback” that keeps him out until he he playoffs. No surgery is required.

Heck, he may have to retire! Without surgery! That’s a real possibility for a 37 year old with a serious back injury.

The first step is taking contact. He hasn’t done that yet. There’s no way of knowing whether he’ll actually be back. Lots could still happen in his recovery.

 

[Micklebot]

It’s not. It’s a real route they could go. Again, he’s injured with no timetable to return. He and the team have chosen a certain rehab program. They could’ve chosen a different one that would keep him out an additional 3 months. They could still do so and put him on LTIR retroactively. Maybe they do if a more attractive trade target becomes available. All of a sudden, Perron might have a “setback”.

He chooses the rehab program, and already made his decision. He's showing progress.

You can pretend we could have just LTIRed him, but the reality is you can't assume he will miss 51 games at the point that carrier was traded particularly when surgery wasn't the route taken.

The GM can't just tell Perron he's going on LTIR until the playoffs, that's just not how it works.

 

[DackellDuck]

He chooses the rehab program, and already made his decision. He's showing progress.

You can pretend we could have just LTIRed him, but the reality is you can't assume he will miss 51 games at the point that carrier was traded particularly when surgery wasn't the route taken.

The GM can't just tell Perron he's going on LTIR until the playoffs, that's just not how it works.

The player, in conjunction with the team, chooses the rehab program. It’s a collaborative relationship and decision. Neither side “dictates” anything to the other.

The GM and training staff could have gotten together with Perron and his agent, and they could have discussed the best course of action. It could have been decided that considering Perron’s age and the nature of back injuries, it’s best to be extra cautious and give him as much time as possible to recover. Perhaps take things slow with the goal of getting him back on the ice in March so he could be ready for a playoff run. Perron could have said, you know what, that makes sense. I want to be 100% for the playoffs and next season. Maybe play beyond that. I don’t want to risk worsening it by coming back too soon. That, of course, would have given the team the benefit of LTIR cap space. But that wouldn’t have been why that course of recovery was taken. No no, absolutely not!

That’s how things work. It’s not magic. It’s a grey area that can be manipulated when both sides find it beneficial. There’s no objective 3rd party from the league that “medically clears” players.

Of course, to my original point, the team and Perron clearly chose not to do that.

But your original question was how could they clear 3.75M? That’s how.

And it could still happen. I agree that Carrier was not the guy to go out and try and get, though.

 

[The Waffler]

No way we pickup Brannstrom. We didn't bother with a QO in the offseason, if the team thought there was value there surely they would've re-signed him or traded him, rather than released him.

His QO was 2mil when he was an RFA for the Sens, so that was the minimum amount they could offer him. I’m pretty sure he’s signed as a UFA with the Avs at league minimum. So there’s more incentive to grab him under these terms. It’s like having Brannstrom at 900k instead of 2mil+.

Personally, I’m not an advocate for picking him up. But now it’s definitely less of a no-brainer than it was in the summer.

 

[Micklebot]

The player, in conjunction with the team, chooses the rehab program. It’s a collaborative relationship and decision. Neither side “dictates” anything to the other.

The GM and training staff could have gotten together with Perron and his agent, and they could have discussed the best course of action. It could have been decided that considering Perron’s age and the nature of back injuries, it’s best to be extra cautious and give him as much time as possible to recover. Perhaps take things slow with the goal of getting him back on the ice in March so he could be ready for a playoff run. Perron could have said, you know what, that makes sense. I want to be 100% for the playoffs and next season. Maybe play beyond that. I don’t want to risk worsening it by coming back too soon. That, of course, would have given the team the benefit of LTIR cap space. But that wouldn’t have been why that course of recovery was taken. No no, absolutely not!

That’s how things work. It’s not magic.

Of course, to my original point, the team and Perron clearly chose not to do that.

But your original question was how could they clear 3.75M? That’s how.

And it could still happen.

Teams can't force a player to get sugery, that's just not a thing. Teams can veto specific treatments like buffalo did with Eichel but they can force you to get surgery.

The reality is if the team and player thought he'd be unfit to play the remainder of the year, they'd have likely opted for surgery, or just shut him down for the year at that point, they didn't do that as they clearly expect him to be back, and no wall of text you think up will change that.

All this so you can wish away his cap hit, it's not something that can just be done unilaterally, doctors would have to sign off on it which simply isn't realistic without going the surgery route since you can't assume it will take 5 months to rehab.

It's just nonsensical fantasy to disappear his cap hit. Had they gone the surgery route, maybe, but they did not, so it's a non starter.

 

[DackellDuck]

Teams can't force a player to get sugery, that's just not a thing. Teams can veto specific treatments like buffalo did with Eichel but they can force you to get surgery.

The reality is if the team and player thought he'd be unfit to play the remainder of the year, they'd have likely opted for surgery, or just shut him down for the year at that point, they didn't do that as they clearly expect him to be back, and no wall of text you think up will change that.

All this so you can wish away his cap hit, it's not something that can just be done unilaterally, doctors would have to sign off on it which simply isn't realistic without going the surgery route since you can't assume it will take 5 months to rehab.

It's just nonsensical fantasy to disappear his cap hit. Had they gone the surgery route, maybe, but they did not, so it's a non starter.

Surgery is not required to go on LTIR. A player can treat an injury with a lengthy rehab program that doesn’t involve surgery and go on LTIR.

A back injury (especially for a 37 year old) could keep a player out for months without requiring surgery, and they could go on LTIR.

And I’m not debating that the team doesn’t “expect” him back. Or that they could have forced him out without him agreeing to it. I’m saying it could have been collaboratively decided that he’d come back in April.

Just because they didn’t do it doesn’t mean they couldn’t have. The league has let many teams play fast and loose with LTIR.