GDT: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 3

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

2021-22	Vegas Golden Knights	NHL	47	9	11	20	12	9	--	--	--	--	--
2022-23	Vegas Golden Knights	NHL	54	6	7	13	55	5	22	5	5	10	31

 

[GCK]

I think it has to do with the fact he's got decent size, is a good skater and plays physical.

Of course he also has poor hockey IQ, doesn't do much defensively and is very undisciplined, none of which carry forward well to the pro game, but this gets ignored.

Boucher is not really undisciplined and he doesn’t have low Hockey IQ. What he projects to IMO is an eventual up and down winger that will hit and score some. The biggest question mark is health.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

He’s 2yrs ahead of Pinto, coming off a 23g 41pt season in 63 games. Was headed to arbitration.

Let's assume Vilardi's deal is structured as ~ $3.15m yr 1 + $3.65m yr 2. If we apply those as Pinto's years 3 & 4, and apply an even growth distribution throughout, his 4yr deal would look like: $2.15m yr 1 + 2.65m yr 2 + $3.15m yr 3 + $3.65m yr 4. Averages out to $2.9m - exactly what Newhook got, and ~$50k per year off of his annual salary breakdown.

I could see Pinto getting less in yr 1 and more in yr 4, but I think its a pretty reasonable expectation for a deal if he is open to signing medium term.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Did you watch Boucher play a single game this season? I truly have to wonder based on this description. Didnt watch any of the WJC by this description below. It appears to me that the one constant here is you not the player.

Brady also does have elite skill, he is amazing at tips and has a terrific reach, using his size for scoring ability. He also gets into soft spots in the o zone and can finish thats hockey IQ....

You seem shocked that someone can come to a different opinion after watching the same player.

Skill typically refers primarily to puck-handling ability, which Brady is good at but not elite.

You'll find the players best at tipping pucks tend to be the smartest players on the ice rather than the most skilled, as being able to tip a puck on a shot being fired 80-100mph has almost everything to do with the ability to process information efficiently, which is hockey IQ to a tee.

 

[Bileur]

I’d say injuries and goaltending were the major reasons we didn’t make the playoffs. Norris is healed and we picked up the best available UFA goalie.

We need depth sure, but it’s being massively overblown as a reason why we missed the playoffs, as most areas of need are in the doldrums of the off season understandably.

The 4th line is close to being set with Mac, Kastelic, Smegma, and pushes from guys like Soks, Jar, Grieg, Crook, Kelly.

We have a third line currently that has Pinto and Joseph and Kubalik, that’s two 20 goal scorers and maybe Kubalik plays up…

We have room for one more NHL forward on the roster realistically, and potentially a veteran 13th type guy to round out the team (that’s assuming that Grieg doesn’t make the team as many have him doing). That’s not a lot to ask for at this time of year. How many other teams have their rosters set right now around the league? I doubt many do…

Tank would be a perfect guy for the top six, but Kubalik could slide up and we could add more of a third liner.

It’s not a big deal, there are lots of players available that could fit the bill and PD has already mentioned that trades for young players with term is also an option.

Anyways, it’s summer time. Everything will move slowly now given that everyone is doing summer things. Things will pick up again soon enough.

Injuries are exacerbated for teams who lack depth. Norris is hopefully healthy but we’ve downgraded DBC to Kubalik. Just like last year we’re one injury away from Pinto in the top 6 and essentially having two fourth lines.

Poor goaltending is exacerbated for teams who lack depth. Last season our bottom two lines were often hemmed in, just hoping to tread water until we could send out the top two lines. It puts a ton of pressure on a goalie.

It’s not overblown at all. Only 2 of the 16 playoff teams had the same (5) or fewer forwards score 10 even strength goals as the sens (Winnipeg and Minnesota). Both got ousted in the first round.

All the teams that made it past the first round finals had at least 8 forwards score 10+ even strength goals.

Not many teams have success with as little depth scoring as the sens had, particularly 5 on 5. Hopefully we get a bounce back from fully healthy Batherson and Norris and good production from Kubalik and a good surprise in Smejkal but there’s no guarantees and we’re once again very vulnerable to injuries.

I don’t think Tarasenko is realistic with the $ we have left but he would be nice.

Who do you have in the top 6 if Kubalik is on the third and we don’t have Pinto?

7-18-28
X-9-19
81-57-21
27-12-17
Smejkal

It’s pretty clearly a big deal, Dorion himself said he’d tell the media whether he expects the team to be a playoff team after the summer. Sounds to me like he knows we need to add.

All of this is beside the fact that I was responding to someone suggesting Reinhardt on the third line, in the NHL, which I think you’d agree is a bad idea.

 

[Big Muddy]

He’s 2yrs ahead of Pinto, coming off a 23g 41pt season in 63 games. Was headed to arbitration.

Let's assume Vilardi's deal is structured as ~ $3.15m yr 1 + $3.65m yr 2. If we apply those as Pinto's years 3 & 4, and apply an even growth distribution throughout, his 4yr deal would look like: $2.15m yr 1 + 2.65m yr 2 + $3.15m yr 3 + $3.65m yr 4. Averages out to $2.9m - exactly what Newhook got, and ~$50k per year off of his annual salary breakdown.

I could see Pinto getting less in yr 1 and more in yr 4, but I think its a pretty reasonable expectation for a deal if he is open to signing medium term.

If Pinto signs a multi-year for anything in the $2.5 - 3.0 per year range, there's not going to be much left over to sign any other players of any significance this season.

Murray's buyout will help, but even with that, there'll be $3.5 m to maybe $4.0 to sign another player, so we'd be looking for deals versus high/higher end players at that point. Got to hope for a buy-out, but it's not automatic. Toronto would probably like the additional space next year when they give players like Matthews their big contract.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Injuries are exacerbated for teams who lack depth. Norris is hopefully healthy but we’ve downgraded DBC to Kubalik. Just like last year we’re one injury away from Pinto in the top 6 and essentially having two fourth lines.

Poor goaltending is exacerbated for teams who lack depth. Last season our bottom two lines were often hemmed in, just hoping to tread water until we could send out the top two lines. It puts a ton of pressure on a goalie.

It’s not overblown at all. Only 2 of the 16 playoff teams had the same (5) or fewer forwards score 10 even strength goals as the sens (Winnipeg and Minnesota). Both got ousted in the first round.

All the teams that made it past the first round finals had at least 8 forwards score 10+ even strength goals.

Not many teams have success with as little depth scoring as the sens had, particularly 5 on 5. Hopefully we get a bounce back from fully healthy Batherson and Norris and good production from Kubalik and a good surprise in Smejkal but there’s no guarantees and we’re once again very vulnerable to injuries.

I don’t think Tarasenko is realistic with the $ we have left but he would be nice.

Who do you have in the top 6 if Kubalik is on the third and we don’t have Pinto?

7-18-28
X-9-19
81-57-21
27-12-17
Smejkal

It’s pretty clearly a big deal, Dorion himself said he’d tell the media whether he expects the team to be a playoff team after the summer. Sounds to me like he knows we need to add.

All of this is beside the fact that I was responding to someone suggesting Reinhardt on the third line, in the NHL, which I think you’d agree is a bad idea.

Of course it's a concern. Doesn't mean its impossible it works out, and if that's all there is you have to hope for the best, but if you look at a depth chart objectively, it's hard to deny.

Our bottom 6 wingers playing with 2 sophomore centers are...

Joseph
Smejkal
Kelly
MacEwan

That group combined for 8 goals in the NHL last year. We need more than that. 2 guys need to bounce back big time in Joseph and Kelly. MacEwan and Smejkal would need to prove they're ready for full time NHL roles with the ability to produce as required for their roles. One of those 2 in a top 9 role, not 4th line.

Behind that, there is some optimism in Greig and Sokolov, but they're 2 more maybe's and that doesn't even touch injuries that just pushes them all further up the depth chart. Other than maybe goaltending, the biggest reason I've heard around here for why last year didn't work out was losing Norris, thus Pinto moving up and having a bad bottom 6 that was noted as thin heading in. That's a depth problem in my eyes.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

If Pinto signs a multi-year for anything in the $2.5 - 3.0 per year range, there's not going to be much left over to sign any other players of any significance this season.

Murray's buyout will help, but even with that, there'll be $3.5 m to maybe $4.0 to sign another player, so we'd be looking for deals versus high/higher end players at that point. Got to hope for a buy-out, but it's not automatic. Toronto would probably like the additional space next year when they give players like Matthews their big contract.

Just my view, and I know its not a particularly popular one (nor how Dorion is likely thinking), but I think this season needs to remain a secondary priority to the longterm health of the team.

In that line of thinking, I would aim either for 1yr at as cheap as possible or for as long of a contract as possible. Keep in mind, I was only comparing for a medium term deal... I think the best course of action, by a huge huge huge huge huge margin, is signing Pinto to a 1yr deal and squeezing him pretty firmly on it. While you never want to be too cut-throat, the fact that the manager doing this negotiation almost certainly won't do his next one gives up a bit of leeway. Not to mention I think players & agents are pretty aware & understanding of how tight the cap is right now.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Injuries are exacerbated for teams who lack depth. Norris is hopefully healthy but we’ve downgraded DBC to Kubalik. Just like last year we’re one injury away from Pinto in the top 6 and essentially having two fourth lines.

Poor goaltending is exacerbated for teams who lack depth. Last season our bottom two lines were often hemmed in, just hoping to tread water until we could send out the top two lines. It puts a ton of pressure on a goalie.

It’s not overblown at all. Only 2 of the 16 playoff teams had the same (5) or fewer forwards score 10 even strength goals as the sens (Winnipeg and Minnesota). Both got ousted in the first round.

All the teams that made it past the first round finals had at least 8 forwards score 10+ even strength goals.

Not many teams have success with as little depth scoring as the sens had, particularly 5 on 5. Hopefully we get a bounce back from fully healthy Batherson and Norris and good production from Kubalik and a good surprise in Smejkal but there’s no guarantees and we’re once again very vulnerable to injuries.

I don’t think Tarasenko is realistic with the $ we have left but he would be nice.

Who do you have in the top 6 if Kubalik is on the third and we don’t have Pinto?

7-18-28
X-9-19
81-57-21
27-12-17
Smejkal

It’s pretty clearly a big deal, Dorion himself said he’d tell the media whether he expects the team to be a playoff team after the summer. Sounds to me like he knows we need to add.

All of this is beside the fact that I was responding to someone suggesting Reinhardt on the third line, in the NHL, which I think you’d agree is a bad idea.

Yes we need depth, but injuries forced guys to play out of position, and we relied on 7 goalies to keep us going. We missed the playoffs by a few games lost. I think that goalie health, Norris, and DBC being post happy were more critical but I won’t argue further about it because it’s not like we were a deep team last year.

Depth would have been great, and it’s certainly important going forward as you suggested, but I guess I’m splitting hairs that injuries and goaltending were bigger factors behind us missing the play offs last season.

Depth is important this off season, but I’d rather we get talent to push guys down if we can, rather than bring in filler for the bottom. If we can get a guy like Tank, then guys like Grieg can fight for a third line spot with Kubalik instead of having a spot sitting there.

I also agree that I don’t want Reinhardt pencilled in at all . I’d be cool if Ostapchuk, jarvie, or Boucher shocked out of camp though…

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Friedman speculating there could be injury issues with Murray and they just LTIR him or move him with a sweetener.

That would suck.

If they don't buyout Murray and we can't afford Tarasenko, then we should sign Tatar to something like 3-3.5 mil.

 

[Sun God Nika]

Friedman speculating there could be injury issues with Murray and they just LTIR him or move him with a sweetener.

That would suck.

What injury would he go on LTIR for ? He never really has a consistent nagging injury and finished the season healthy . Don’t get me wrong the leafs are going to try it and that’s why they have Elliot putting it out into the universe but I hope the league and the other teams put up a fight here

 

[Wallet Inspector]

What injury would he go on LTIR for ? He never really has a consistent nagging injury and finished the season healthy . Don’t get me wrong the leafs are going to try it and that’s why they have Elliot putting it out into the universe but I hope the league and the other teams put up a fight here

No offense but I don't think other teams would care about the Leafs saving 4.5 mil in cap space instead of like 3 mil or whatever with a buyout.

 

[Ice-Tray]

No offense but I don't think other teams would care about the Leafs saving 4.5 mil in cap space instead of like 3 mil or whatever with a buyout.

It has nothing to do with other teams, though I’m sure there are many up against the cap that would be pissed by other team‘S bullshit.

More importantly, insurance companies would care, and the league cares about cap circumvention.

 

[Neil Patrick Harris]

Even more importantly, I'm sure Murray would care - and would almost certainly raise a stink to the NHLPA about it.

Most players would prefer to play if at all possible; I don't think Murray's going to volunteer to sit out a year so the Leafs can save a few bucks. Hell, he's probably hoping the Leafs buy him out given that they clearly don't have him in their plans.

 

[Micklebot]

Even more importantly, I'm sure Murray would care - and would almost certainly raise a stink to the NHLPA about it.

Most players would prefer to play if at all possible; I don't think Murray's going to volunteer to sit out a year so the Leafs can save a few bucks. Hell, he's probably hoping the Leafs buy him out given that they clearly don't have him in their plans.

Murray may be the one trying to block a buyout, it will cost him a lot of money if he can't find another team willing to give him a chance.

He makes 8 mil on IR this year, or 2.6 if he's bought out (then another 2.6 next year).

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Kinda funny how the opinions on Boucher differ so much.

Personally, I see the kid has slightly above average hockey IQ and vision, slightly above average strength, below average skater, and a 4th liner skillset overall.

 

[JD1]

You seem shocked that someone can come to a different opinion after watching the same player.

Skill typically refers primarily to puck-handling ability, which Brady is good at but not elite.

You'll find the players best at tipping pucks tend to be the smartest players on the ice rather than the most skilled, as being able to tip a puck on a shot being fired 80-100mph has almost everything to do with the ability to process information efficiently, which is hockey IQ to a tee.

You've never played the game have you.

It takes zero hockey IQ to stand in front of the net. Puck goes to the point, you go to the net. There's not a lot of smarts involved in that. And if you are dumb enough to not do that, when you get back to the bench they'll tell you to do that

Getting your stick on the puck when it's moving 80+ mph on the other hand requires some pretty significant hand eye coordination

Process info efficiently my ass. It takes huge skill to tip that puck and it doesn't have much to do with IQ. It's elite hand eye coordination

 

[JD1]

Injuries are exacerbated for teams who lack depth. Norris is hopefully healthy but we’ve downgraded DBC to Kubalik. Just like last year we’re one injury away from Pinto in the top 6 and essentially having two fourth lines.

Poor goaltending is exacerbated for teams who lack depth. Last season our bottom two lines were often hemmed in, just hoping to tread water until we could send out the top two lines. It puts a ton of pressure on a goalie.

It’s not overblown at all. Only 2 of the 16 playoff teams had the same (5) or fewer forwards score 10 even strength goals as the sens (Winnipeg and Minnesota). Both got ousted in the first round.

All the teams that made it past the first round finals had at least 8 forwards score 10+ even strength goals.

Not many teams have success with as little depth scoring as the sens had, particularly 5 on 5. Hopefully we get a bounce back from fully healthy Batherson and Norris and good production from Kubalik and a good surprise in Smejkal but there’s no guarantees and we’re once again very vulnerable to injuries.

I don’t think Tarasenko is realistic with the $ we have left but he would be nice.

Who do you have in the top 6 if Kubalik is on the third and we don’t have Pinto?

7-18-28
X-9-19
81-57-21
27-12-17
Smejkal

It’s pretty clearly a big deal, Dorion himself said he’d tell the media whether he expects the team to be a playoff team after the summer. Sounds to me like he knows we need to add.

All of this is beside the fact that I was responding to someone suggesting Reinhardt on the third line, in the NHL, which I think you’d agree is a bad idea.

We're not an injury away from Pinto in the top 6. We're a C injury away from Pinto in the top 6. But, Pinto has a full year under his belt in the top 6 and will certainly be better suited for it this year than he was last year when it happened.

If you presume our top 6 all get 10 even strength goals....then you have Pinto playing 3C against weaker opposition than he saw last year ... So can we create a line around Pinto that produces 25-30 EV goals?

There's no question we need to be healthy. Maybe it's our turn to have a healthy year.

 

[Big Muddy]

Just my view, and I know its not a particularly popular one (nor how Dorion is likely thinking), but I think this season needs to remain a secondary priority to the longterm health of the team.

In that line of thinking, I would aim either for 1yr at as cheap as possible or for as long of a contract as possible. Keep in mind, I was only comparing for a medium term deal... I think the best course of action, by a huge huge huge huge huge margin, is signing Pinto to a 1yr deal and squeezing him pretty firmly on it. While you never want to be too cut-throat, the fact that the manager doing this negotiation almost certainly won't do his next one gives up a bit of leeway. Not to mention I think players & agents are pretty aware & understanding of how tight the cap is right now.

Ya, who knows what they're going to do. They may decide to go medium/long term at a reasonable rate with Pinto.

They may decide to spend their limited cap on another forward to bolster their lineup.

I guess it depends on what the priorities are. I have wondered if Andlauer would place emphasis on generating excitement and increasing attendance after committing $950 million?

 

[DueDiligence]

Murray may be the one trying to block a buyout, it will cost him a lot of money if he can't find another team willing to give him a chance.

He makes 8 mil on IR this year, or 2.6 if he's bought out (then another 2.6 next year).

Murray would certainly get an offer of $2-3 million for a couple of years. The dude wants to play.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Murray would certainly get an offer of $2-3 million for a couple of years. The dude wants to play.

Oh, I really don't know about that. I think Murray would likely have to settle for 1yr and $1.5mil at most.

In the last three years, Murray has played 73 games (24-25 per season), started 71 (23-24 per season) won 29 games (9-10 a year), gotten a total of 63 pts for his team (0.89 pt %; 21pts per year), is tied for 45th out of 61 goalies (min 50 games) in SVP - the 4 guys he's tied with have played more games than him, some more than double - and he's 49th in GAA. He's only ranked top 32 in quality starts (obviously not a perfect stat, but not nothing) once in the last three years and that was 2020-2021 where he ranked 30th.

His play has been pretty bad and his health has been as bad as anyones. More importantly, his injuries have no reliability to them. I doubt there is a goalie in the league with as huge a gap between "expected time off for injury" & "actual time off for injury" as Murray has.

I hate to see it and I hate to say it.... I never enjoy watching an individual athlete struggle, much less one who showed so much promise, but I see a huge headache in Murray & not much else. I hope he turns it around but I've been hoping that for half a decade now!

 

[Cosmix]

It has nothing to do with other teams, though I’m sure there are many up against the cap that would be pissed by other team‘S bullshit.

More importantly, insurance companies would care, and the league cares about cap circumvention.

Yes Insurance companies would definitly care; however, I am not as certain that the league (teams) cares about cap circumvention via LTIR abuse.

 

[Micklebot]

Murray would certainly get an offer of $2-3 million for a couple of years. The dude wants to play.

Who's going to spend 2-3 mil with a couple years term on a guy that hasn't been able to stay healthy for 3 straight years and has been dumped by one team and bought out by the next? Backups are there to be reliably available, Murray is the opposite of that. Teams have already figured out their starter situations. He'll be getting prove it offers, not sure if he's eligible, maybe he can get something with bonuses if he missed enough of last year to injury.