Proposal: Fowler to NJ

[Sojourn]

Ryan Getzlaf wasn't an elite prospect. Go back and watch the 2003 draft videos. He and Perry were barely talked about.

I guess it's an extraordinary claim that the 6th overall pick in a strong draft class could be a great player, but if the proofs I've provided so far aren't convincing nothing will be.

The Central Scouting Bureau had him top 5 of the American skaters. THN had him top 10. He fell to Anaheim. I'd wager it was, in large part, due a some questionable work ethic and some perceived attitude problems.

But the point isn't what Getzlaf was as a prospect. The point is what Getzlaf became. If you want to say that, at the time, he was questionable to turn into an elite #1 center, I'd have no problem with that. That still doesn't mean Zacha is going to become a Getzlaf caliber player.

 

[Rhodes 81]

I don't know how NJ plans to rebuild their D with only that to offer. Only 5 guys on roster, 2 of which are into their 30s. It's all well and good having Hall, Palms, and Henrique, but what's the point if you've got no D behind them. Schneider can't do it all.

Shatty makes the most sense here given he's RH, bring a lot more offence then Fowler and is from the area i.e. likely to re-sign. However, you're probably giving up at least 2 nice pieces in that deal... and I'm not talking about Boucher+++. Start with your 1st and add.

I don't either, which is part of the reason I'm one of the few Devils fans that's not thrilled with the Hall for Larsson trade. Obviously Hall is worth more than Larsson, but I've never been a fan of filling one hole by creating another. The Devils now need Severson and Merrill to both turn the corner and play up to their potential immediately, Santini to make the transition to the NHL seamlessly, AND to add another good if not great defenseman under 28 just to be as good as we were last year. Schneider is, in my opinion, the 2nd best goalie in the league, and he can cover up a lot of warts on a defense, but you are right, he can't do it all. The Greene-Larsson pairing faced by far the toughest minutes of any in the league last year, and generally came out of it on top. That must be replaced somehow.

I would actually be fine with trading our first for someone like Shattenkirk. Shero has indicated he drafts for need rather than bpa by taking Zacha over Provorov, so that pick will probably be used on a defenseman anyway. Considering it generally takes at least 4 post-draft years for a d-man to hit their stride in the NHL, cashing that pick in along with some other pieces for a d-man like Shatty would be nice, though it makes no sense for the Blues. They don't want to trade him for futures.

In general, I think Shero jumped the gun by not being patient with the young forwards and I have no idea how he plans to fix it, but I'm sure he knows this. I'm just afraid it's going to cost more than Devils fans are happy with.

 

[Stephen Gionta]

I don't either, which is part of the reason I'm one of the few Devils fans that's not thrilled with the Hall for Larsson trade. Obviously Hall is worth more than Larsson, but I've never been a fan of filling one hole by creating another. The Devils now need Severson and Merrill to both turn the corner and play up to their potential immediately, Santini to make the transition to the NHL seamlessly, AND to add another good if not great defenseman under 28 just to be as good as we were last year. Schneider is, in my opinion, the 2nd best goalie in the league, and he can cover up a lot of warts on a defense, but you are right, he can't do it all. The Greene-Larsson pairing faced by far the toughest minutes of any in the league last year, and generally came out of it on top. That must be replaced somehow.

I would actually be fine with trading our first for someone like Shattenkirk. Shero has indicated he drafts for need rather than bpa by taking Zacha over Provorov, so that pick will probably be used on a defenseman anyway. Considering it generally takes at least 4 post-draft years for a d-man to hit their stride in the NHL, cashing that pick in along with some other pieces for a d-man like Shatty would be nice, though it makes no sense for the Blues. They don't want to trade him for futures.

In general, I think Shero jumped the gun by not being patient with the young forwards and I have no idea how he plans to fix it, but I'm sure he knows this. I'm just afraid it's going to cost more than Devils fans are happy with.

In general, I agree with the bolded statement.

But, how on earth could you possibly not be happy about that trade?
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Adam Larsson and I think he is going to be an amazing defender for the Oilers for many years to come. But if you have the chance to acquire Taylor Hall in a one for one with Adam Larsson, you take that 100 times out of 100.

The Devils have Severson Santini Lovejoy Mozik and Jacobs, with all but Lovejoy being under the age of 23. That group will collectively fill Larssons shoes. Taylor Hall is Taylor Hall. You don't pass that up.

I also think the Devils have a GREAT shot at landing Shattenkirk as a UFA next summer, which would really soften the blow on the defense with Larsson's departure.

However, this thread is about Cam Fowler to NJD and I think Cam is a perfect fit on the Devils right behind Andy. Shero just needs to find a way.

 

[Rhodes 81]

In general, I agree with the bolded statement.

But, how on earth could you possibly not be happy about that trade?
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Adam Larsson and I think he is going to be an amazing defender for the Oilers for many years to come. But if you have the chance to acquire Taylor Hall in a one for one with Adam Larsson, you take that 100 times out of 100.

The Devils have Severson Santini Lovejoy Mozik and Jacobs, with all but Lovejoy being under the age of 23. That group will collectively fill Larssons shoes. Taylor Hall is Taylor Hall. You don't pass that up.

I also think the Devils have a GREAT shot at landing Shattenkirk as a UFA next summer, which would really soften the blow on the defense with Larsson's departure.

However, this thread is about Cam Fowler to NJD and I think Cam is a perfect fit on the Devils right behind Andy. Shero just needs to find a way.

I agree with everything you say here. I an ecstatic about Taylor Hall being a member of the Devils. Just don't think enough Devils fans have stopped to think about how important Larsson was to our team last year and going forward. Mozik, Santini, Lovejoy may make up for him in one way or another, but none of them are close to the player Larsson was for us. I'm just waiting to see how Shero fills that hole before I call the trade a unilateral success.

As for the point of the thread, yes Fowler is exactly what we need. In fact I was hoping the Devils could get him somehow even before the trade. I just don't see how we have the assets to get it done and still have it make sense.

 

[britdevil]

This is horrid. Absolutely no chance in hell.

 

[ghdi]

I agree with everything you say here. I an ecstatic about Taylor Hall being a member of the Devils. Just don't think enough Devils fans have stopped to think about how important Larsson was to our team last year and going forward. Mozik, Santini, Lovejoy may make up for him in one way or another, but none of them are close to the player Larsson was for us. I'm just waiting to see how Shero fills that hole before I call the trade a unilateral success.

As for the point of the thread, yes Fowler is exactly what we need. In fact I was hoping the Devils could get him somehow even before the trade. I just don't see how we have the assets to get it done and still have it make sense.

I dont disagree with you in some respects. Larsson is going to be relatively tough to replace singularly. However, you don't pass up a chance to trade for Taylor Hall 1:1 for a stay-at-home defenseman at the same age. Look at our team since Parise/Kovy have left. We've had virtually no dynamic offensive player since. We've had a lot of committee work up and down the roster. We still have one of the best goaltenders in the league, a underrated stalwart in Andy Greene, and at least one young gem in Severson. We're not devoid of depth talent defensively. On the other hand, offensively we were dire. It was largely an affordable move and worth it because of Hall's ability. Larsson's hole can be patched, even if its makeshift, for a short period of time. Hell, even if we had Hall AND Larsson, this team is not a Cup contender.

Our hole defensively is not as gaping as you think it is. That's part of the argument some are making in reference to these D-Man trades and rushing to offer up assets like our 1st round pick in 2017 and guys like John Quenneville. Also, just basing it on guys that get to UFA and even the trade market, its going to be easier replacing Larsson than getting a Taylor Hall.

Fowler doesn't make sense today. The cost is too high and it just creates even more holes attempting to get him. IMO our best bet for a defensive upgrade this season will be at the trade deadline or trading for Shattenkirk's rights pre-UFA. We also could see the emergence of somebody already on this team/organization. There's no point in worrying about our D in July before the roster has even been set. We could just as easily bring in a guy on PTO who plays great for us as well.

 

[Eric Sachs]

I dont disagree with you in some respects. Larsson is going to be relatively tough to replace singularly. However, you don't pass up a chance to trade for Taylor Hall 1:1 for a stay-at-home defenseman at the same age. Look at our team since Parise/Kovy have left. We've had virtually no dynamic offensive player since. We've had a lot of committee work up and down the roster. We still have one of the best goaltenders in the league, a underrated stalwart in Andy Greene, and at least one young gem in Severson. We're not devoid of depth talent defensively. On the other hand, offensively we were dire. It was largely an affordable move and worth it because of Hall's ability. Larsson's hole can be patched, even if its makeshift, for a short period of time. Hell, even if we had Hall AND Larsson, this team is not a Cup contender.

Our hole defensively is not as gaping as you think it is. That's part of the argument some are making in reference to these D-Man trades and rushing to offer up assets like our 1st round pick in 2017 and guys like John Quenneville. Also, just basing it on guys that get to UFA and even the trade market, its going to be easier replacing Larsson than getting a Taylor Hall.

Fowler doesn't make sense today. The cost is too high and it just creates even more holes attempting to get him. IMO our best bet for a defensive upgrade this season will be at the trade deadline or trading for Shattenkirk's rights pre-UFA. We also could see the emergence of somebody already on this team/organization. There's no point in worrying about our D in July before the roster has even been set. We could just as easily bring in a guy on PTO who plays great for us as well.

If it was that easy to replace a Larsson, then Edmonton wouldn't have given up a Hall for him.

Larsson will leave a gaping hole.. almost as large as the one that Hall fills imo. I think we win the player value in that trade and while we improved our team, it was very much plugging one hole by opening up another. Altogether, we improved and its a trade I make again and again.. but it's not like there won't be major issues going this route vs. the keeping Larsson route.

 

[tomd]

Considering that NJ has only 5 NHL defensemen under contract it will be interesting to see what they do. Unless they add 1-2 quality D they will start the year with (arguably) one of the worst D corps in the league. Not sure where they are going to get them from though.

 

[ghdi]

If it was that easy to replace a Larsson, then Edmonton wouldn't have given up a Hall for him.

Larsson will leave a gaping hole.. almost as large as the one that Hall fills imo. I think we win the player value in that trade and while we improved our team, it was very much plugging one hole by opening up another. Altogether, we improved and its a trade I make again and again.. but it's not like there won't be major issues going this route vs. the keeping Larsson route.

Easier. Not easy.

 

[Eric Sachs]

Considering that NJ has only 5 NHL defensemen under contract it will be interesting to see what they do. Unless they add 1-2 quality D they will start the year with (arguably) one of the worst D corps in the league. Not sure where they are going to get them from though.

Cory Schneider will cover up much of defensive weaknesses.

We will also likely have 1-2 kids playing in Santini, Helgeson, Auvitu (not a kid but a rookie nonetheless), etc.

Easier. Not easy.

But it's not. It takes a Taylor Hall. Unless you really believe Edmonton was just being generous, the price it takes to replace an Adam Larsson is the same price as it takes to replace a Taylor Hall.

 

[tomd]

Cory Schneider will cover up much of defensive weaknesses.

We will also likely have 1-2 kids playing in Santini, Helgeson, Auvitu (not a kid but a rookie nonetheless), etc.

That might be the plan but throwing more kids out there (and Severson is still really just a kid himself) is a prescription for disaster. The forwards are going to have to really help out or Schneider will be worn out by December. I'm sure they will add another couple of veteran D by the time training camp opens and just hope for the best. They look like a lottery team at this point though.

 

[DanteDevilsHockey]

There is no way in hell the Devils will trade Pavel Zacha and Joe Blandisi for Cam Fowler. Zacha is worth far too much to this organization, as one day he and the rest of the organization hopes to be our top line FWD all star. Plus Joe Blandisi who has shown excellence in the OHL and if he would be able to carry over at least some of that success to the big club he is easily a Top 9 FWD. With that said Cam Fowler is a great young talent that is currently a Top 4 D. I'm sure one day he will become a reliable top pairing guy. However trading your 6th overall selection in one of the best drafts the NHL has seen in its history is not a good idea. Zacha is an exceptional talent without a doubt and if once in a life-time draft talents such as McDavid and Eichel weren't in the 2015 draft Zacha would've easily gone top 3, and if he didn't get injured in Sarnia that year he would've put up numbers that reflect a potential 1st overall guy. The Devils have a gaping whole in their defense since the loss of Larsson (which I'm sure no one minds because look who we got in return ), but this organization can't afford to lose a guy like Zacha no question about it. I can't really see Anaheim working out a deal with Shero and NJ ever since we got Palmieri for dirt cheap and then him going from scoring 14 goals in ANA to 30 in NJ. Fowler is a great young talent, however I don't see a trade for him in the cards for NJ. Nevertheless Shero has shown trade excellence so you never know.

 

[tomd]

There is no way in hell the Devils will trade Pavel Zacha and Joe Blandisi for Cam Fowler. Zacha is worth far too much to this organization, as one day he and the rest of the organization hopes to be our top line FWD all star. Plus Joe Blandisi who has shown excellence in the OHL and if he would be able to carry over at least some of that success to the big club he is easily a Top 9 FWD. With that said Cam Fowler is a great young talent that is currently a Top 4 D. I'm sure one day he will become a reliable top pairing guy. However trading your 6th overall selection in one of the best drafts the NHL has seen in its history is not a good idea. Zacha is an exceptional talent without a doubt and if once in a life-time draft talents such as McDavid and Eichel weren't in the 2015 draft Zacha would've easily gone top 3, and if he didn't get injured in Sarnia that year he would've put up numbers that reflect a potential 1st overall guy. The Devils have a gaping whole in their defense since the loss of Larsson (which I'm sure no one minds because look who we got in return ), but this organization can't afford to lose a guy like Zacha no question about it. I can't really see Anaheim working out a deal with Shero and NJ ever since we got Palmieri for dirt cheap and then him going from scoring 14 goals in ANA to 30 in NJ. Fowler is a great young talent, however I don't see a trade for him in the cards for NJ. Nevertheless Shero has shown trade excellence so you never know.

I agree that the OP trade proposal is very unlikely to happen.

OTOH, if someone asked you whether you would prefer to have Hall/Fowler or Larsson/Zacha, which combo would you choose? One could arguably say that NJ would upgrade at both positions with those two trades.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Devils are in no position to be making a trade like this.

basically, Zacha is unequivocally unavailable UNLESS its in a deal for a better forward prospect.

 

[DanteDevilsHockey]

I agree that the OP trade proposal is very unlikely to happen.

OTOH, if someone asked you whether you would prefer to have Hall/Fowler or Larsson/Zacha, which combo would you choose? One could arguably say that NJ would upgrade at both positions with those two trades.

I like that point you make, but we don't know what Zacha will be as of now. There's a good chance he becomes an impact player but I see the point your trying to make.

 

[Rhodes 81]

I dont disagree with you in some respects. Larsson is going to be relatively tough to replace singularly. However, you don't pass up a chance to trade for Taylor Hall 1:1 for a stay-at-home defenseman at the same age. Look at our team since Parise/Kovy have left. We've had virtually no dynamic offensive player since. We've had a lot of committee work up and down the roster. We still have one of the best goaltenders in the league, a underrated stalwart in Andy Greene, and at least one young gem in Severson. We're not devoid of depth talent defensively. On the other hand, offensively we were dire. It was largely an affordable move and worth it because of Hall's ability. Larsson's hole can be patched, even if its makeshift, for a short period of time. Hell, even if we had Hall AND Larsson, this team is not a Cup contender.

Our hole defensively is not as gaping as you think it is. That's part of the argument some are making in reference to these D-Man trades and rushing to offer up assets like our 1st round pick in 2017 and guys like John Quenneville. Also, just basing it on guys that get to UFA and even the trade market, its going to be easier replacing Larsson than getting a Taylor Hall.

Fowler doesn't make sense today. The cost is too high and it just creates even more holes attempting to get him. IMO our best bet for a defensive upgrade this season will be at the trade deadline or trading for Shattenkirk's rights pre-UFA. We also could see the emergence of somebody already on this team/organization. There's no point in worrying about our D in July before the roster has even been set. We could just as easily bring in a guy on PTO who plays great for us as well.

Again, I completely agree that you make that trade every time, that doesn't mean I like making it.

The problem here is that you are taking Adam Larsson, who is someone you know you can rely on to play at or above his current level for the next decade, and trading it for Taylor Hall, who probably has about half that time left before his skills start to go down hill, if even that. By trading for Hall, you are saying you will compete for the cup within the next 5 years.

In order to do that, you have to fix the hole you left on your defense as fast as possible. Yes we have some good prospects coming in, but we were already relying on them to bolster the bottom pairings, not fill a whole at the top. Team defense and Schneider can only make up for so much. Eventually you need better than what we've got on defense to reliably make a run.

Currently our core consists of Hall, Palmieri, Henrique, Greene, Schneider. I don't see any way of looking at that and saying we have more than 3 years to start putting things together. I'm not saying we have to go acquire a d-man right now, but I am saying we can't rely on drafting one or hoping one of our prospects turns into one. We simply don't have that kind of time. It can't be understated how much this move has necessitated the acceleration of our rebuild. We can't sit back waiting on all our forward prospects to develop anymore because with Greene's retirement rapidly approaching, we no longer have any sure things on the back end.

So yes, I would rush to give up a Quenneville or even our first next year for a Fowler or Shattenkirk, because then we're back to having someone we know we can pencil in on the top pairing for the next decade. Right now we simply don't have that. Make a trade for a defenseman of that caliber without giving up a current roster player and I would consider us likely to make the playoffs. The problem is that Anaheim and St. Louis aren't going to trade these guys for futures.

 

[tomd]

Again, I completely agree that you make that trade every time, that doesn't mean I like making it.

The problem here is that you are taking Adam Larsson, who is someone you know you can rely on to play at or above his current level for the next decade, and trading it for Taylor Hall, who probably has about half that time left before his skills start to go down hill, if even that. By trading for Hall, you are saying you will compete for the cup within the next 5 years.

In order to do that, you have to fix the hole you left on your defense as fast as possible. Yes we have some good prospects coming in, but we were already relying on them to bolster the bottom pairings, not fill a whole at the top. Team defense and Schneider can only make up for so much. Eventually you need better than what we've got on defense to reliably make a run.

Currently our core consists of Hall, Palmieri, Henrique, Greene, Schneider. I don't see any way of looking at that and saying we have more than 3 years to start putting things together. I'm not saying we have to go acquire a d-man right now, but I am saying we can't rely on drafting one or hoping one of our prospects turns into one. We simply don't have that kind of time. It can't be understated how much this move has necessitated the acceleration of our rebuild. We can't sit back waiting on all our forward prospects to develop anymore because with Greene's retirement rapidly approaching, we no longer have any sure things on the back end.

So yes, I would rush to give up a Quenneville or even our first next year for a Fowler or Shattenkirk, because then we're back to having someone we know we can pencil in on the top pairing for the next decade. Right now we simply don't have that. Make a trade for a defenseman of that caliber without giving up a current roster player and I would consider us likely to make the playoffs. The problem is that Anaheim and St. Louis aren't going to trade these guys for futures.

Good analysis and I wonder if the NJ management agrees with you. Like it or not, the only asset I think Anaheim or St Louis would entertain is Zacha (and that would only be if they believe he has a reasonable chance to contribute this year). It would be a tough pill for NJ to swallow but they have to give to get and Fowler and Shattenkirk seem to be the only two high-end D out there now who are actually available.

 

[Section32]

Can I ask how good you guys think Zacha is going to be?

A comparable maybe?

 

[VoidCreature]

Can I ask how good you guys think Zacha is going to be?

A comparable maybe?

He's said he models his game after other top power centers like Ryan Getzlaf and Eric Staal. I'd say his ceiling is that kind of player.

For a recent prospect comparable, he outscored Tomas Hertl's same age seasons in the Czech leagues.

Edit: Dug up the stats Feed Me a Stray Cat posted on the Devils board last year.

Edit again: added Zacha's 17 and 18 year old seasons to the chart

Zacha:
18-year old season (15-16): 3gp, 1g, 2a, 3p, 1.0 ppg in AHL
18-year old season (15-16): 1gp, 0g, 2a, 2p, 2.0 ppg in NHL
18-year old season (15-16): 51gp, 28g, 34a, 64p, 1.25 ppg in OHL
17-year old season (14-15): 37gp, 16g, 16a, 34p, 0.92 ppg in OHL
16-year old season (13-14): 38gp, 4g, 4a, 8p, 0.21ppg in Czech men's league
16-year old season (13-14): 10gp, 6g, 11a, 17p, 1.70ppg in Czech U20 league
15-year old season (12-13): 39gp, 14g, 26a, 40p, 1.03ppg in Czech U20 league
15-year old season (12-13): 6gp, 6g, 7a, 13p, 2.17ppg in Czech U18 league

Hertl:
18/19-year old season (11-12): 38gp, 12g, 13a, 25p, 0.66ppg in Czech Men's league
17/18-year old season (10-11): 33gp, 14g, 27a, 41p, 1.24ppg in Czech U20 league
16/17-year old season (09-10): 42gp, 12g, 26a, 38p, 0.91ppg in Czech U20 league
16/17-year old season (09-10): 7gp, 13g, 10a, 23p, 3.29ppg in Czech U18 league
15/16-year old season (08-09): 35gp, 16g, 15a, 31p, 0.89ppg in Czech U18 league

 

[Trapper]

The good of this post: NJ getting Fowler. That would be a good move for the Devils.
The bad: Trading Zacha. You need to see what you have with this player. He could be a solid core piece in the future.

 

[Keep Sorokin Me Babe]

With Schneider in net, I don't think NJ have to worry too much about their defense, they still should have no problem moving the puck up to the forwards. Really like what Shero is building there, size+speed

 

[Stephen Gionta]

How about this?

To NJD:
Cam Fowler

To ANA:
Devante Smith-Pelly
Joseph Blandisi
Jon Merrill
2017 1st (lottery protected - If its a top 3 pick, push it to 2018)

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I agree that the OP trade proposal is very unlikely to happen.

OTOH, if someone asked you whether you would prefer to have Hall/Fowler or Larsson/Zacha, which combo would you choose? One could arguably say that NJ would upgrade at both positions with those two trades.

This is what I was thinking about when I made the proposal. Makes us a better team immediately.

 

[Eric Sachs]

I agree that the OP trade proposal is very unlikely to happen.

OTOH, if someone asked you whether you would prefer to have Hall/Fowler or Larsson/Zacha, which combo would you choose? One could arguably say that NJ would upgrade at both positions with those two trades.

Larsson and Hall is a moot point. It already happened. You don't make another trade just because you can justify it based on the value you got in a previous trade.

And Larsson is easily the better defensemen.. c'mon. I really like Fowler too and would love for the Devils to add him.

 

[tomd]

Larsson and Hall is a moot point. It already happened. You don't make another trade just because you can justify it based on the value you got in a previous trade.

And Larsson is easily the better defensemen.. c'mon. I really like Fowler too and would love for the Devils to add him.

My point on Hall/Fowler vs Zacha/Larsson was simply that NJ traded Larsson knowing that they would have a huge huge hole on D and would have to replace him somehow. They won't go into the season with what they have and the remaining UFA crop is mediocre and will get overpaid. Their best way to improve is to make a trade for a quality young D. Fowler for Zacha improves NJ today and for the next couple of years. No question about that. Five years from now? who knows and that is where the risk is for NJ.

As to Larsson being better than Fowler, I'm not sure. Larsson being a RHD clearly makes him more valuable and his contract is better. On the ice, however, I think they influence the game in about the same manner although they are different players. Larsson is clearly about potential and I get that. Fowler gets criminally underrated on these boards because (1) he plays on the west coast and no one sees him consistently except California fans and (2) he doesn't play an overtly physical game. Having said that, he made the NHL as a 19 year-old and has been a leader on Anaheim's defense ever since. If Lindholm hadn't emerged as a potential #1 D then the Ducks wouldn't even be talking about trading Fowler. As it is, they can afford to trade him from a position of strength.

I understand that NJ fans are loath to trade Zacha but c'mon, you really don't have anything else that makes any sense for Anaheim at this point.