Proposal: Fowler for Zuccarello

[WhatTheDuck]

Has that seemed to hamper Zuccarello from producing like a 1st line player? I don't think it has.

I think the concern would be whether guys like Zuc and Tatar would find the same success playing in the Ducks system, which often involves slowing the pace down to a crawl and bullying your way to open ice off the cycle. They're both good enough that they should be able to adapt, but there would be a big adjustment.

Zuccarello is worth more than Fowler lol anyone who thinks otherwise is insane

I bet you would have said the same of Hall and Larsson. It doesn't matter who you think is a better player, quality young D are harder to come by than wingers.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Laugh away. Instead of coming up with terrible proposals, why not just admit that we're not good trade partners... because we're not.

News flash, I was just trying to figure out something using the OP's proposal as a basis. Fowler is a middle pair dman, with terrible offensive numbers for the minutes he gets, and terrible shot suppression and generation numbers.

Tell me again how that deal is so unfair. In fact, ANA looks to get the better end of it, so I retract my offer. Fowler is even worse than I originally thought.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

News flash, I was just trying to figure out something using the OP's proposal as a basis. Fowler is a middle pair dman, with terrible offensive numbers for the minutes he gets, and terrible shot suppression and generation numbers.

Tell me again how that deal is so unfair. In fact, ANA looks to get the better end of it, so I retract my offer. Fowler is even worse than I originally thought.

Not a very good response when someone refers to you as a stat watcher.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

I bet you would have said the same of Hall and Larsson. It doesn't matter who you think is a better player, quality young D are harder to come by than wingers.

Fowler is a fine D man, I think he's overrated by Ducks fans, and his underlying stats aren't good, but that's me. Zuccarello is more important to the Rangers than Fowler would be, so there isn't any deal to be made here.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Zuccarello is worth more than Fowler lol anyone who thinks otherwise is insane



Two things:

1) Teams could give a **** what fans think is right and wrong. They get paid to make the decisions, not the fans sitting on a hockey forum
2) I also doubt that Ducks fans want a 65 point first line winger on their team LOL Yea right

True but the east is less physical then the west, He might get exposed more in the west where they play a more physical kind of game then in the east. Like what must Duck fans say that Anaheim plays an extremely physical brand of hockey. Not saying that Zuccarello couldn't handle it. But suggesting that he might be little less effective in Anaheim then with the Rangers that's all.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

Fowler is a fine D man, I think he's overrated by Ducks fans, and his underlying stats aren't good, but that's me. Zuccarello is more important to the Rangers than Fowler would be, so there isn't any deal to be made here.

Nah, I'd say the people who actually follow the Ducks appreciate what he brings to the table, and he's underrated by folks who do their scouting from hero charts. There are very few D in this league who wouldn't see their underlying stats suffer when tasked with facing top competition paired with the likes of Bieksa.

 

[Oscar Lindberg]

Nah, I'd say the people who actually follow the Ducks appreciate what he brings to the table, and he's underrated by folks who do their scouting from hero charts. There are very few D in this league who wouldn't see their underlying stats suffer when tasked with facing top competition paired with the likes of Bieksa.

I can appreciate this statement at least. McDonagh suffers from the same thing with Girardi. It's quite sad to see a guy get paired with an anchor, and not be able to play to their full potential.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

I'll use your own game against you. How does a guy who "isn't even a particularly good puck mover" wind up being amongst the league's best in terms of controlled zone exits?
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/defencemen-best-exiting-zone/

If you're going to rely solely on stats, you should probably make sure the stats don't completely shoot down your narrative.

So you're saying that, while he bleeds shots against at the rate of a 7th D, if the puck by some miracle ends up on his stick, he can move it out of the zone, and that's great?

Fine, have it your way. Still an awful dman. This thread is pointless anyway, you're just trying to polish a turd.

 

[AVsTimeOut]

Rangers front office laughs and hangs up.

Zucc is worth more to the Rangers than he is to Anaheim.
Fowler has been very underwhelming for the most part.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Rangers front office laughs and hangs up.

Zucc is worth more to the Rangers than he is to Anaheim.
Fowler has been very underwhelming for the most part.

Totally agree Zucc is worth far more then just Fowler, Anaheim would've to add another decent piece here. Not sure that losing Zucc for Fowler makes to much sense for the Rangers.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

So you're saying that, while he bleeds shots against at the rate of a 7th D, if the puck by some miracle ends up on his stick, he can move it out of the zone, and that's great?

Fine, have it your way. Still an awful dman. This thread is pointless anyway, you're just trying to polish a turd.

I'm pointing out the irony here. You claim that Ducks fans views on Fowler disregard stats, and was able to produce a stat that 100% shot down one of your own descriptions of Fowler. If you're going to spew out opinions based on stats, you should probably make sure that there aren't stats that say the exact opposite.

What you're doing is cherry picking two areas that suit your narrative, instead of looking at the entire picture. It's hilarious how you bring up puck moving ability to try and rip on Fowler, but when I show you he's elite in regard in comparison to his peers, you decide puck moving doesn't matter anymore.

All these stats actually paint a pretty clear picture. Fowler is used in the toughest of defensive situations alongside a sub par partner, of course he's going to allow a lot of shots. But he's able to overcome this by being elite at getting his team effectively out of trouble. There's a lot of value in that.

 

[mytduxfan*]

Has that seemed to hamper Zuccarello from producing like a 1st line player? I don't think it has.

... in the East.

Zuccarello is worth more than Fowler lol anyone who thinks otherwise is insane

Two things:

1) Teams could give a **** what fans think is right and wrong. They get paid to make the decisions, not the fans sitting on a hockey forum
2) I also doubt that Ducks fans want a 65 point first line winger on their team LOL Yea right

Zucc has never had 65 points.

He is small but scores at a top line rate and is a great twoway player, great contract and in his prime. Say what you want about his size, he is good enough to play on every top line in the league because of his twoway game and since he can play both LW and RW. MSL is shorter than Zucc, not saying Zucc is as good as MSL but when size is the only thing you complain about it says alot about how good he is. He is an extremely effective twoway player.

Not really interested in Fowler for 2 reasons, he is LH and he isnt much better than Staal. NYR has Mcdonagh, Staal and Skjei on the left side.

Zucc would get mauled in the West. He's better off where he is. Fowler is a top pairing D-man. If the return doesn't warrant us moving a top pairing D-man, then we won't move him.

News flash, I was just trying to figure out something using the OP's proposal as a basis. Fowler is a middle pair dman, with terrible offensive numbers for the minutes he gets, and terrible shot suppression and generation numbers.

Tell me again how that deal is so unfair. In fact, ANA looks to get the better end of it, so I retract my offer. Fowler is even worse than I originally thought.

See my original post:

Staal is terrible. We don't need more bottom pairing guys. We don't need more D. We need more wings. Moving out Silf doesn't help that. Terrible all round.

Fowler is a top pairing D-man. Your useless stat watching doesn't change that. Retract away. Your offer was terrible.

Fowler is a fine D man, I think he's overrated by Ducks fans, and his underlying stats aren't good, but that's me. Zuccarello is more important to the Rangers than Fowler would be, so there isn't any deal to be made here.

Thus verifying that you're a stat watcher. Congratulations! You now have zero credibility on anything regarding Fowler.

 

[mytduxfan*]

I'm pointing out the irony here. You claim that Ducks fans views on Fowler disregard stats, and was able to produce a stat that 100% shot down one of your own descriptions of Fowler. If you're going to spew out opinions based on stats, you should probably make sure that there aren't stats that say the exact opposite.

What you're doing is cherry picking two areas that suit your narrative, instead of looking at the entire picture. It's hilarious how you bring up puck moving ability to try and rip on Fowler, but when I show you he's elite in regard in comparison to his peers, you decide puck moving doesn't matter anymore.

All these stats actually paint a pretty clear picture. Fowler is used in the toughest of defensive situations alongside a sub par partner, of course he's going to allow a lot of shots. But he's able to overcome this by being elite at getting his team effectively out of trouble. There's a lot of value in that.

He's also completely out of his depth in the role he's in. No Duck fan is saying otherwise. He's a #2D doing the job of a #1D all whilst partnered with bottom pairing guys. That's going to make your stats look bad. Put him on a top pairing against the best with a guy like Shea Weber, Erik Johnson or even Rasmus Ristolainen and I'd bet you Lindholm that his advanced statistics would improve to a level you'd expect for a top pairing D-man.

 

[AVsTimeOut]

... in the East.


Zucc would get mauled in the West. He's better off where he is. Fowler is a top pairing D-man. If the return doesn't warrant us moving a top pairing D-man, then we won't move him.

Tell that to Gaudreau.

 

[eco's bones]

I'm a big fan of Zuccarello. He's not only very talented--he's a rounded player and he's a gritty little ****. Conversely I'm not really a fan of Fowler. He's talented and still a young guy but he's not very rounded for his position and he has almost no grit at all. I easily hold on to Zucc.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I think the concern would be whether guys like Zuc and Tatar would find the same success playing in the Ducks system, which often involves slowing the pace down to a crawl and bullying your way to open ice off the cycle. They're both good enough that they should be able to adapt, but there would be a big adjustment.

You probably have not watched Zooks a lot but one of his greatest skills is off the cycle behind the net. He is great at squeezing by and through hits while cycling behind the net. He also does not take crap from anyone.

 

[Childish Gamsteeno]

He's also completely out of his depth in the role he's in. No Duck fan is saying otherwise. He's a #2D doing the job of a #1D all whilst partnered with bottom pairing guys. That's going to make your stats look bad. Put him on a top pairing against the best with a guy like Shea Weber, Erik Johnson or even Rasmus Ristolainen and I'd bet you Lindholm that his advanced statistics would improve to a level you'd expect for a top pairing D-man.

Considering Shea Weber has been tanking Josi's advanced statistics for the past 3 years, I wouldn't really expect that..

 

[NickyFotiu]

Zooks had 20 points in 28 games vs the West last season. .714 PPG
Zooks had 41 points in 53 games vs the East last season. .774 PPG

His production vs the West was slightly lower but very similar. Considering the travel and time zone issues while playing the West on the road, I would say the difference in production was negligible.

 

[mytduxfan*]

Tell that to Gaudreau.

Wow... one guy. There is a reason that the top 14 shortest guys in the league play in the East. One exception to the rule doesn't change the rule. Feel free to throw another name at me to prove me wrong though. Top 50 shortest guys:

Gerbe - East
Grimaldi - East
Desharnais - East
Gionta - East
Gionta - East
Zucc - East
Rau - East
Sheary - East
Johnson - East
Tolchinsky - East
Byron - East
Atkinson - East
Arcobello - East
Ennis - East
Petan - West
Spurgeon - West
Warsofsky - East
Schroeder - West
O'Neill - East
Marchand - East
Cammalleri - East
Arvidsson - West
Griffith - East
Thomas - West
De Leo - West
Tootoo - East
Leipsic - East
Hinostroza - West
Hunt - West
Friesen - West
Vatrano - East
Krug - East
Gaudreau - West
Gallagher - East
Gourde - East
Catenacci - East
Marchessault - East
Haley - West
Schwartz - West
Weal - East
Palmieri - East
Trocheck - East
Pageau - East
Acciari - East
Taormina - East
Terry - East
Leier - East
Enstrom -
Bertschy -
Wideman - East

So what's there? Jaden Schwartz and Johnny Gaudreau? Gaudrea >>> Zucc. Zucc is pure speed. Gaudreau has much more skill and a much, much better shot then Zucc. Meanwhile, Schwartz really isn't that short. He's 5ft 10" and, again, has a much, much better shot then Zucc.

Another player to point out is Palms. Got absolutely mauled in the 2014-15 playoffs. Was moved out East and scored 30s this season.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

You probably have not watched Zooks a lot but one of his greatest skills is off the cycle behind the net. He is great at squeezing by and through hits while cycling behind the net. He also does not take crap from anyone.

I love watching Zuc, and to be clear I was more pointing out what those concerns would be rather than suggesting I had serious concerns myself. Like I said he's good enough to have success in any system, but I still think there would be a big adjustment for more dynamic guys like Zuc or Tatar. The Ducks really don't play with any pace at all, it would take some getting used to.

 

[mytduxfan*]

You probably have not watched Zooks a lot but one of his greatest skills is off the cycle behind the net. He is great at squeezing by and through hits while cycling behind the net. He also does not take crap from anyone.

The way RC plays his team, Zucc would probably have to go get the puck first. Zucc is too small to be effective in board battles. He'd probably end up relegated to some lower line or may just bust complete i.e. Hagelin 2.0.

Considering Shea Weber has been tanking Josi's advanced statistics for the past 3 years, I wouldn't really expect that..

3 years? How you come that conclusion? Oh... yeah... stat watching. I forgot.

Zooks had 20 points in 28 games vs the West last season. .714 PPG
Zooks had 41 points in 53 games vs the East last season. .774 PPG

His production vs the West was slightly lower but very similar. Considering the travel and time zone issues while playing the West on the road, I would say the difference in production was negligible.

This kind of comparison means nothing. NYR, along with most East teams, plays a completely different game to most West teams. Zucc simply wouldn't get the time and space here that he gets playing in the East.

 

[NYR Viper]

Someone mentioned Vatanen for Zuccarello. That makes MUCH more sense in terms of value and position of need for the Rangers.

 

[NYR Viper]

The way RC plays his team, Zucc would probably have to go get the puck first. Zucc is too small to be effective in board battles. He'd probably end up relegated to some lower line or may just bust complete i.e. Hagelin 2.0.

Zuccarello is a very effective board and cycle player. You obviously have never watched him play.

 

[mytduxfan*]

Someone mentioned Vatanen for Zuccarello. That makes MUCH more sense in terms of value and position of need for the Rangers.

It makes no sense for the Ducks given we just signed Vatanen to an extension. Given the price some RHDs have gotten this year, I'd expect more then Zucc for Vats.

 

[Quackers18]

Much like Hegelin. I dont think Zuc fits in the west.