GDT: Four Nations Face-Off

[CBJWerenski8]

The Canadians also have a goalie who might have developed in the last two seasons and be their best goalie now who was allegedly involved in a sexual assault. (Mods, are we allowed to mention that? I used the term allegedly and didn’t name the player.)

ETA - While agree Hellebuyck is a different level, I think Oettenger is better than any Canadian goalie as well.

Not to jump on, but I think swayman is too. Or at least equal.

 

[Doggy]

Regarding Canadian goalies, this is a trend that has been happening for a while. I seem to remember about ten years ago Canadian Juniors was going to stop allowing European goalies to play in the CHL because Hockey Canada felt the Canadian goalie pipeline was drying up and that prospective Canadian goalies were getting pushed out by better talent and were not getting the proper coaching/development they needed. They eventually nixed it because they got blow back but they still recognized they had a problem quite a long time ago.

Gonna look for an article on it.

Edit: here's one article and it was just 10+ years ago. There are many articles surrounding this move.

CBS Sports article on CHL ban of European goalies

 

[koteka]

How much is basketball hurting the development of goalies in Canada? Is the athletic Canadian kid who is taller than most of his peers now playing basketball and dreaming of being the next Shai Gilgeous-Alexander instead of putting on the pads and dreaming of being the next Carey Price?

 

[CBJWerenski8]

How much is basketball hurting the development of goalies in Canada? Is the athletic Canadian kid who is taller than most of his peers now playing basketball and dreaming of being the next Shai Gilgeous-Alexander instead of putting on the pads and dreaming of being the next Carey Price?

Basketball players earn more (on average) and basketball is far cheaper to play. These recent generations of kids had to grow up in an economic collapse of the mid 2000s and then a pandemic where their parents might have been trying to keep things cheaper. Not out of the question for sure.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Hmm... I think you're taking the argument a little far here.

Name an American player from the last five drafts that you would want to trade Adam Fantilli for.

Heck let's say we put the Jackets' two most valuable young Canadian players in a trade package, Fantilli and KJ. And you could pick any two Americans from the last five drafts. Do you want to make that trade?



Who is the second best American goalie and why would you want him over Vasi, Shesty, Sorokin etc..

American goalie superiority right now is largely just about Hellebuyck. Is it even a topic without him? We should be talking more about Helle as a singular force.

I’m not even sure what we are arguing here.

Canadian goaltending now lacks behind the USA AND Europe.

Also, look at recent world junior performance of the USA versus Canada and look at the ages of the players on the Canada Four Nations roster versus the USA.

Maybe some players as individuals might be better but as a consistent thing, it seems like the USA just might be developing better overall players more consistently than Canada right now.

Don’t judge only the very top players. Look at the consistency of the next tier of players.

 

[koteka]

It is too bad there is not a consolation game. Who would take Laine’s head off? Rasmus Andersson? Ekholm? The guy needs to learn to keep his mouth shut.

 

[stevo61]

How much is basketball hurting the development of goalies in Canada? Is the athletic Canadian kid who is taller than most of his peers now playing basketball and dreaming of being the next Shai Gilgeous-Alexander instead of putting on the pads and dreaming of being the next Carey Price?

$ and accessibility at the end of the day I'd imagine. Families can't afford hockey in general and most parents are not very happy to hear the words "I want to be a goalie"

 

[majormajor]

I’m not even sure what we are arguing here.

Canadian goaltending now lacks behind the USA AND Europe.

I was replying to your comment about the Jackets potentially switching from European goalies to USA goalies.

Also, look at recent world junior performance of the USA versus Canada and look at the ages of the players on the Canada Four Nations roster versus the USA.

Maybe some players as individuals might be better but as a consistent thing, it seems like the USA just might be developing better overall players more consistently than Canada right now.

Don’t judge only the very top players. Look at the consistency of the next tier of players.

You don't think it's a little striking that you wouldn't trade the two best U-23 Blue Jacket Canadian players for ANY two U-23 American players?

I'll buy that the US might be ahead for prime age players age around 23-28, I haven't looked too far into. But If you wouldn't make that trade then you simply can not argue that the USA has taken over Canada in the next generation as a permanent trend.

 

[stevo61]

Well, seeing these 2 build some momentum could be huge in the event of a rematch with the Americans

 

[stevo61]

I’m not even sure what we are arguing here.

Canadian goaltending now lacks behind the USA AND Europe.

Also, look at recent world junior performance of the USA versus Canada and look at the ages of the players on the Canada Four Nations roster versus the USA.

Maybe some players as individuals might be better but as a consistent thing, it seems like the USA just might be developing better overall players more consistently than Canada right now.

Don’t judge only the very top players. Look at the consistency of the next tier of players.

But yet Canada keeps pumping out more NHL players. It's also a bit of a flawed logic to use things like the WJC when wild things can happen in a short tournament, the Americans have programs like the NTDP so many of their players are pretty comfortable with each other and also how often top picks end up in the NHL and are 1 and done.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I was replying to your comment about the Jackets potentially switching from European goalies to USA goalies.



You don't think it's a little striking that you wouldn't trade the two best U-23 Blue Jacket Canadian players for ANY two U-23 American players?

I'll buy that the US might be ahead for prime age players age around 23-28, I haven't looked too far into. But If you wouldn't make that trade then you simply can not argue that the USA has taken over Canada in the next generation as a permanent trend.

I’m in the middle of working so I’m only halfway reading but I’ll trade anybody if it makes the team better. Nationality means very little to me but on the surface it seems like the USA is close to if not surpassing Canada in development of players via quality if not quantity. Our junior system still lacks.

 

[majormajor]

I’m in the middle of working so I’m only halfway reading but I’ll trade anybody if it makes the team better.

This is about comparing the level of players, the caliber of players in these age groups, Canada vs US.

The fact that no one has jumped on me to say that of course they would trade Fantilli and KJ for - insert any two Americans that age - I don't know, Sanderson and Cooley?? That's really telling. And we're not even including Celebrini and Bedard in this conversation yet.

 

[stevo61]

This is about comparing the level of players, the caliber of players in these age groups, Canada vs US.

The fact that no one has jumped on me to say that of course they would trade Fantilli and KJ for - insert any two Americans that age - I don't know, Sanderson and Cooley?? That's really telling. And we're not even including Celebrini and Bedard in this conversation yet.

The argument I was waiting for was "America developed them". Which can be very loosely true and more for a guy like Celebrini but overall Canada doesn't have a skater issue. They have a management/old boys club problem but the skaters look good. Was hoping to see more defensemen come through at a high level so a guy like Schaefer on the way is great to see.

 

[koteka]

You don't think it's a little striking that you wouldn't trade the two best U-23 Blue Jacket Canadian players for ANY two U-23 American players?

Brock Faber and Matt Boldy are probably equal in value to KJ and Fantilli.

Obviously Jackets fans are attached to their guys and unlikely to make the trade, but I also expect Wild fans are attached to their guys and wouldn’t make the trade either.

I get your point and the 2 best Canadian U-23s are more valuable than the best American U-23s, but the Canadian issue is the best young Canadians are all forwards while the Americans have Faber who I would take over any young Canadian defensemen.

 

[Aaaarrgghh]

It is too bad there is not a consolation game. Who would take Laine’s head off? Rasmus Andersson? Ekholm? The guy needs to learn to keep his mouth shut.

Victor Hedman replied with a verbal shrug, saying that if you ask the Swedes, then they're big brother, and if you ask the Finns, then they're big brother.

 

[majormajor]

Brock Faber and Matt Boldy are probably equal in value to KJ and Fantilli.

Obviously Jackets fans are attached to their guys and unlikely to make the trade, but I also expect Wild fans are attached to their guys and wouldn’t make the trade either.

The US 2019 draft was SO stacked, that's why I made the cutoff U-23 or "last five drafts" so I didn't have to deal with Boldy, Hughes, etc....

But now that you mention it, I realized Faber is a 2020 pick - so that does make it a lot tougher, I would strongly consider swapping one of our two young Canadian forwards for Faber.

I get your point and the 2 best Canadian U-23s are more valuable than the best American U-23s, but the Canadian issue is the best young Canadians are all forwards while the Americans have Faber who I would take over any young Canadian defensemen.

Until the 2025 draft at least.

 

[stevo61]

Canada had a couple years dip while the Americans had a couple years bump so it made things look more extreme than it actually is. I expect the Americans being more consistent putting out top end talent but it's not surprising Canada has come around and started pumping out Bedard, Celebrini, Schaefer, McKenna, etc. They also have a lot of defensemen projected as top prospects in the coming drafts as well

 

[CBJx614]

Inside U.S. hockey’s rise in goal — the weekend of meetings that changed everything

The current generation of American goalies is on a different level, and the next wave could be even better.

www.nytimes.com

Very interesting article about US goalie coaching...here's a few snippets:

A decade ago, some of the brightest minds in American goaltending locked themselves in a hotel room in Ohio and didn’t come out until they had rewritten the way goalies were being developed in the United States.

It happened inside a suite at the Hyatt Regency in downtown Columbus in May 2015.......In those 48 hours, the group rewrote the coaching education curriculum for goalies and developed what would eventually become the American Development Model (ADM) for goaltending. Their biggest focus was educating youth coaches around the country on how to design drills that better serve their goalies, even if they have no goaltending expertise of their own..........


Reiter and others observed typical practices and realized the vast majority of drills were not beneficial for the goalies. The netminders faced shot after shot with little to no rest or instruction. The rapid-fire nature of most drills actually builds poor habits for the goalie, who must abandon tracking rebounds to get ready for the next shooter in line. They also don’t force the goalie to make reads, so they will often cheat to get in position for the shot they know is eventually coming. None of that translates to real-game situations.


*****The last paragraph made so much sense to me. It's been forever since I played or coached kids, but looking back with the power of hindsight, these drills were really HARMFUL. I didn't even have an inkling back then. Oh well

Good to know that all the camps I went to as a kid weren't helping

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Another assist for Z. 5 now in 3 games

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I love whiskey as much as the next person and a lot more than most people but seriously, can they go a single commerical break during this game without showing a Tullamore Dew commercial? I'm really getting annoyed by the fake Irish jingle.

 

[Viqsi]

Is it just me or is TNT's production of this game g-dawful? There's giant dead air gaps in the commentary, the score bug guys when Granato was on seemed like they were sleeping through it ("oh, he's been talking for the last fifteen seconds, maybe we should note it's him"), the picture quality looks like they tried to upscale a circa-Y2K movie file (too frequently I can't even see the puck at all)... I'm not sure if I want to keep watching.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Team USA is trying to win this game but they certainly don’t have their foot down.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

This TNT crew is an abomination. The non stop nostalgia about Teams of USA Past is nauseating. Ed Olczyk may be the worst TV guy in the world.

End of rant.

 

[CBJWerenski8]