GDT: Four Nations Face-Off

[Cyclones Rock]

I fully expect Canada to smash Finland to a pulp on Monday. The pride/desperation level will be unmatched I would think.

Crosby had been on a 26-0 run in the Best on Best games before last night. All good things must come to an end. Canada was due for a loss in these type of events.

In the likelihood (my view anyway) that Canada gets to the final, I'd view them as a heavy favorite vs. the US. They're a more talented team (save for goaltending) and I don't see them losing twice to this US team. They have much more talented forwards and if Makar is able to play, then I view their defense as slightly better than the that of the Americans.

This being said-bet the ranch on the US to win it all

 

[majormajor]

In the likelihood (my view anyway) that Canada gets to the final, I'd view them as a heavy favorite vs. the US. They're a more talented team (save for goaltending) and I don't see them losing twice to this US team. They have much more talented forwards and if Makar is able to play, then I view their defense as slightly better than the that of the Americans.

The difference with Hellebuyck is more than enough to counterbalance any advantage Canada has up front, the US ought to be favorites on that alone. But I also think the US D group is better even with Makar in Canada's lineup.

 

[NotWendell]

I fully expect Canada to smash Finland to a pulp on Monday. The pride/desperation level will be unmatched I would think.

Crosby had been on a 26-0 run in the Best on Best games before last night. All good things must come to an end. Canada was due for a loss in these type of events.

In the likelihood (my view anyway) that Canada gets to the final, I'd view them as a heavy favorite vs. the US. They're a more talented team (save for goaltending) and I don't see them losing twice to this US team. They have much more talented forwards and if Makar is able to play, then I view their defense as slightly better than the that of the Americans.

This being said-bet the ranch on the US to win it all

I concur with your prediction on the Finland match. Makar will make this a much closer game but "save for goaltending" is a recipe for an L in a championship final.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

The difference with Hellebuyck is more than enough to counterbalance any advantage Canada has up front, the US ought to be favorites on that alone. But I also think the US D group is better even with Makar in Canada's lineup.

If McDavid, Point, and McKinnon get rolling then Hellebuyck won't be enough to stop them.

Canada's goaltending deficiency is their achilles heel. I don't pay much attention to who is from the US or Canada and I was shocked that Binnington was their best option.

 

[stevo61]

If McDavid, Point, and McKinnon get rolling then Hellebuyck won't be enough to stop them.

Canada's goaltending deficiency is their achilles heel. I don't pay much attention to who is from the US or Canada and I was shocked that Binnington was their best option.

Well best option if you ignore Thompson, Keumper, Blackwood, Fleury and probably more based on this season. As a Canadian I'd probably feel the best with Blackwood in net

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Well best option if you ignore Thompson, Keumper, Blackwood, Fleury and probably more based on this season. As a Canadian I'd probably feel the best with Blackwood in net

Evidently the Canadian coaching staff believes he's the best option over your suggestions

 

[stevo61]

Evidently the Canadian coaching staff believes he's the best option over your suggestions

Canada known for its great history of smart roster decisions. They claimed they would pick a team based on stats this season and then threw all of that out to take guys way down the list . Atleast coach Cooper got his Tampa line in there I guess

 

[majormajor]

If McDavid, Point, and McKinnon get rolling then Hellebuyck won't be enough to stop them.

And if the US forwards get rolling then they could put up 6 on Binnington (or any of Canada's goalies).

Canada known for its great history of smart roster decisions. They claimed they would pick a team based on stats this season and then threw all of that out to take guys way down the list . Atleast coach Cooper got his Tampa line in there I guess

The Tampa trio has been legit excellent. It's the other lines that need to get sorted out.

 

[koteka]

And if the US forwards get rolling then they could put up 6 on Binnington (or any of Canada's goalies).


The Tampa trio has been legit excellent. It's the other lines that need to get sorted out.

6? We are playing Torts style hockey against Canada. Maybe 4.

100% agree on the Tampa guys. They looked like they came to play.

 

[Doggy]

He can be a pos on the ice but by all accounts a fantastic human off the ice

I have a cousin who is a Canadian Special Olympics Power Lifting Medal Winner. He is also a huge Bruins fan though he does not often get to games live. Recently he was in Calgary when the Flames hosted the Bruins. Someone reached out to people in the hockey community and Canadian Sports HoF and arranged for him to watch their practice.

After the practice my cousin was elated to get to meet some of the players and as they came off the ice many of the players stopped to talk with him rather than just a "hey" or high five. Marchand was mentioned specifically because he stopped and talked with my cousin for ten minutes asking about his passion for power lifting and other aspects of his life. This meant the world to my cousin.

So yeah, he is an easy guy to hate on the ice but what he did off it meant something to my cousin...and that meant something to me.

 

[ThirdPeriodTurtle]

They're on NHLs app and website. You're right other than Canada actually has two points. Each game is worth 3 total. They beat Sweden in OT so they got 2 for it.

Thanks. I honest to god did not see them before, or think to click the Standings on the website and then another click there at the top... or click near the bottom of the front page to get to the actual 4 Nations website (which I hadn't seen before, guess I always missed this one).

But yeah ok it's there. Just a bit too many clicks for my taste still.

The way the games have gone is pretty much perfect for NHL. Sweden and Finland don't feel too bad, they were hanging on to some degree and had some moments, but assuming Canada beats Finland, it's a CAN-USA rematch for the final. Can't script it better.

 

[Doggy]

I'd like to keep it to national teams too but if we need to accommodate players, I think just one misfits/underdogs team would be the ticket.

I find it slightly annoying that the 4 Nations tournament standings are nowhere to be found. Apparently the standings use the 3 points system used in some places in Europe? So it's something like:

USA - 6p
CAN - 3p
FIN - 2p
SWE - 2p

I like the 3p system because it gives meaning to regulation wins better than the 2p system. But it's interesting the NHL chose it, given how weird it must feel to North Americans? Or is it used somewhere in the lower levels/juniors?

(I guess for such a short tourney, 3p system works better/faster at getting the teams separated... interesting if they go back to 2p for the 8 Nations version.)

1) I like the three point system too but it's hypocritical of the NHL to use the international system for an NHL sanctioned event. I find it insulting because the vast majority of fans appear to prefer the three point system and the NHL argues it's system is better (it's certainly more self-serving).

2) I was listening to The Athletic hockey podcast and they gave the impression the players were asked about creating a "world" team for countries not represented by the top four nations and the players were not interested.

 

[majormajor]

1) I like the three point system too but it's hypocritical of the NHL to use the international system for an NHL sanctioned event. I find it insulting because the vast majority of fans appear to prefer the three point system and the NHL argues it's system is better (it's certainly more self-serving).

Personally I like the exalted feeling after a team win in OT. It's still a full win in a 2 point system. In a 3 point system it feels like 2/3 of a win, feels like more of a tie.

2) I was listening to The Athletic hockey podcast and they gave the impression the players were asked about creating a "world" team for countries not represented by the top four nations and the players were not interested.

That isn't too surprising. Was this poll of players from those European countries? Of course they'd prefer to play for their national clubs, but given that those clubs can't be formed from NHL talent, would they rather not play if it was a choice between that and having a Team Europe? I am not sure.

 

[Doggy]

Personally I like the exalted feeling after a team win in OT. It's still a full win in a 2 point system. In a 3 point system it feels like 2/3 of a win, feels like more of a tie.

But an OT win <> a regulation win. In what world other than the NHL are some games worth more than others? Why should regulation games award two points and overtime games three points. I am fine with your argument as long as you agree all wins are worth two points and zero points for a loss. I mean, if an OT win is a "full win" then an OT loss is a "full loss". Right?

That isn't too surprising. Was this poll of players from those European countries? Of course they'd prefer to play for their national clubs, but given that those clubs can't be formed from NHL talent, would they rather not play if it was a choice between that and having a Team Europe? I am not sure.

I think the podcast hosts were suggesting that given the choice between "world" team and no team, the players would prefer to not play at all.

 

[Doggy]

Think the Fins were excited by their win yesterday. Check out the cal in Finnish on the OT game winner...

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Inside U.S. hockey’s rise in goal — the weekend of meetings that changed everything

The current generation of American goalies is on a different level, and the next wave could be even better.

www.nytimes.com

Very interesting article about US goalie coaching...here's a few snippets:

A decade ago, some of the brightest minds in American goaltending locked themselves in a hotel room in Ohio and didn’t come out until they had rewritten the way goalies were being developed in the United States.

It happened inside a suite at the Hyatt Regency in downtown Columbus in May 2015.......In those 48 hours, the group rewrote the coaching education curriculum for goalies and developed what would eventually become the American Development Model (ADM) for goaltending. Their biggest focus was educating youth coaches around the country on how to design drills that better serve their goalies, even if they have no goaltending expertise of their own..........


Reiter and others observed typical practices and realized the vast majority of drills were not beneficial for the goalies. The netminders faced shot after shot with little to no rest or instruction. The rapid-fire nature of most drills actually builds poor habits for the goalie, who must abandon tracking rebounds to get ready for the next shooter in line. They also don’t force the goalie to make reads, so they will often cheat to get in position for the shot they know is eventually coming. None of that translates to real-game situations.


*****The last paragraph made so much sense to me. It's been forever since I played or coached kids, but looking back with the power of hindsight, these drills were really HARMFUL. I didn't even have an inkling back then. Oh well

 

[Doggy]

My buddy in Boston is going to the game Thursday

 

[majormajor]

But an OT win <> a regulation win. In what world other than the NHL are some games worth more than others? Why should regulation games award two points and overtime games three points. I am fine with your argument as long as you agree all wins are worth two points and zero points for a loss. I mean, if an OT win is a "full win" then an OT loss is a "full loss". Right?

It might be better to have an OT loss be a "full loss". I think that was my original position. Either way I'm fairly certain that an OT win should continue to be a "full win". A 2/3 win is not a thing!

I think the podcast hosts were suggesting that given the choice between "world" team and no team, the players would prefer to not play at all.

Okay fair enough.

 

[koteka]

It happened inside a suite at the Hyatt Regency in downtown Columbus in May 2015.......In those 48 hours, the group rewrote the coaching education curriculum for goalies and developed what would eventually become the American Development Model (ADM) for goaltending. Their biggest focus was educating youth coaches around the country on how to design drills that better serve their goalies, even if they have no goaltending expertise of their own..........

From what I understand they have great training programs for coaching youth goalies but they aren’t utilized much. Because a lot of coaches don’t care about coaching goalies.

ETA - My problem with goalie development is youth teams typically have an A goalie and a B goalie. Little effort is made to develop the B goalie. I think there should be more movement between teams for goalies. Like a backup AAA goalie should be able to drop to AA to get more games and a backup AA goalie should be able to drop to A to get more games. Let a AA starter move up for a weekend tournament at AAA and get some practice with the AAA team.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Honestly, I think we've seen it in recent years of the World Junior and its starting to take hold in the NHL. Better players are coming from the USA now.

Canadian goaltending is not as good as it should be. The best goalies are American or European now. The young talent in the USA is starting to overtake Canada. Look at the top stars of Canada's roster versus the USA roster. The best Canadian players are mostly in their 30's. The best American players are still in their 20's.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Inside U.S. hockey’s rise in goal — the weekend of meetings that changed everything

The current generation of American goalies is on a different level, and the next wave could be even better.

www.nytimes.com

Very interesting article about US goalie coaching...here's a few snippets:

A decade ago, some of the brightest minds in American goaltending locked themselves in a hotel room in Ohio and didn’t come out until they had rewritten the way goalies were being developed in the United States.

It happened inside a suite at the Hyatt Regency in downtown Columbus in May 2015.......In those 48 hours, the group rewrote the coaching education curriculum for goalies and developed what would eventually become the American Development Model (ADM) for goaltending. Their biggest focus was educating youth coaches around the country on how to design drills that better serve their goalies, even if they have no goaltending expertise of their own..........


Reiter and others observed typical practices and realized the vast majority of drills were not beneficial for the goalies. The netminders faced shot after shot with little to no rest or instruction. The rapid-fire nature of most drills actually builds poor habits for the goalie, who must abandon tracking rebounds to get ready for the next shooter in line. They also don’t force the goalie to make reads, so they will often cheat to get in position for the shot they know is eventually coming. None of that translates to real-game situations.


*****The last paragraph made so much sense to me. It's been forever since I played or coached kids, but looking back with the power of hindsight, these drills were really HARMFUL. I didn't even have an inkling back then. Oh well

Maybe we can find a way to actualy get one of these American goalies in our system. We seem to rely on European goalies from the Jarmo era. Will this changes under GMDW?

 

[majormajor]

Honestly, I think we've seen it in recent years of the World Junior and its starting to take hold in the NHL. Better players are coming from the USA now.

Canadian goaltending is not as good as it should be. The best goalies are American or European now. The young talent in the USA is starting to overtake Canada. Look at the top stars of Canada's roster versus the USA roster. The best Canadian players are mostly in their 30's. The best American players are still in their 20's.

Hmm... I think you're taking the argument a little far here.

Name an American player from the last five drafts that you would want to trade Adam Fantilli for.

Heck let's say we put the Jackets' two most valuable young Canadian players in a trade package, Fantilli and KJ. And you could pick any two Americans from the last five drafts. Do you want to make that trade?

Maybe we can find a way to actualy get one of these American goalies in our system. We seem to rely on European goalies from the Jarmo era. Will this changes under GMDW?

Who is the second best American goalie and why would you want him over Vasi, Shesty, Sorokin etc..

American goalie superiority right now is largely just about Hellebuyck. Is it even a topic without him? We should be talking more about Helle as a singular force.

 

[Jovavic]

Goaltending ebbs and flows with each generation. Finland used to be a goalie factory, not so much anymore. It is no doubt a down time for Canadian goaltending, it could be a bunch of different factors like coaching or talent or genetics or just plain luck, but it'll rebound.

 

[koteka]

American goalie superiority right now is largely just about Hellebuyck. Is it even a topic without him? We should be talking more about Helle as a singular force.

The Canadians also have a goalie who might have developed in the last two seasons and be their best goalie now who was allegedly involved in a sexual assault. (Mods, are we allowed to mention that? I used the term allegedly and didn’t name the player.)

ETA - While agree Hellebuyck is a different level, I think Oettenger is better than any Canadian goalie as well.