Forslund contract negotiations

  • Work is still on-going to rebuild the site styling and features. Please report any issues you may experience so we can look into it. Click Here for Updates
Well, If we can't keep Forslund, I think there's a zero chance we pay for Hamilton next contract.

I don't think this follows, like how we paid Aho but not Kaiton.

The point is, for all the history with the club, they were right that no one really cared when Kaiton left, so his salary was a no-brainer to cut.

I hope we show them that we care if Forslund leaves.
 
Well, If we can't keep Forslund, I think there's a zero chance we pay for Hamilton next contract.
I think its a huge mistake to think there is a correlation between being frugal with the operational budget and being frugal with player contracts. We haven't yet skimped on anything that prevents us from putting as good a team as we can on the ice. We spend to the cap, we aren't afraid to literally pay someone straight cash homie for a draft pick, and didn't bat an eye on signing Aho to a contract that resulted in him being paid a couple very large bonuses within 12 months of pen to paper. If anything, we're skimping on the things that have little to no value on the performance of the team itself, which.... I mean, isn't necessarily a bad idea.
 
Forslund is not negotiating with Dundon, he's negotiating with Waddell. Dundon writes the checks and sets the parameters, but it's not like there's some sort of person-to-person confrontation happening here.

Waddell is charged to operate the organization on a budget, and Forslund is pushing the boundaries of that budget. That would be a challenging situation at the best of times, but right now is really not a great moment for anyone in the pro sports industry to ask for a raise. The dynamic here really isn't as simple as "Dundon's being cheap and stonewalling Forslund".

Yes, it is.

This is one of those Big Decisions. The budget is the budget for a reason; you're careful with your shekels so that you can spend them on the right things when you need to. Every organization everywhere has a mechanism to go upstairs: to the owner, to the board, whomever, with the Big Decisions.

Dundon walked away from buying this team, and then said "you know what, I really want this team" so he walked right back. It's not the money. It's the principle: Dundon wants to spend money on certain things, according to a certain plan, ostensibly because he wants a sustainable model. Fine, I get it. Understand that pulling Forslund out of that model is going to do more damage than you realize.

This is A Big Decision, and the buck for those doesn't stop at Donny: it stops at Tommy.
 
Yes, it is.

This is one of those Big Decisions. The budget is the budget for a reason; you're careful with your shekels so that you can spend them on the right things when you need to. Every organization everywhere has a mechanism to go upstairs: to the owner, to the board, whomever, with the Big Decisions.

Dundon walked away from buying this team, and then said "you know what, I really want this team" so he walked right back. It's not the money. It's the principle: Dundon wants to spend money on certain things, according to a certain plan, ostensibly because he wants a sustainable model. Fine, I get it. Understand that pulling Forslund out of that model is going to do more damage than you realize.

This is A Big Decision, and the buck for those doesn't stop at Donny: it stops at Tommy.

And the sucky thing is, they might come out of it being right just like they did with Kaiton. I don't know how much money the FS broadcast actually makes the team. And I don't necessarily know how strong the customer base is built through the TV broadcast. I can only speak for myself, and I know that if I ran a franchise that just missed the playoffs 10 years in a row, and my fans voted something about my organization to be the best in the entire league despite that fact, I'd think long and hard about getting rid of that thing.
 
And the sucky thing is, they might come out of it being right just like they did with Kaiton. I don't know how much money the FS broadcast actually makes the team. And I don't necessarily know how strong the customer base is built through the TV broadcast. I can only speak for myself, and I know that if I ran a franchise that just missed the playoffs 10 years in a row, and my fans voted something about my organization to be the best in the entire league despite that fact, I'd think long and hard about getting rid of that thing.

Yup. They might very well be right. I'll still follow the Canes regardless. But the money we spend is literally the only leverage we have.

Would be nice if a high-dollar sponsor were willing to go to the bat and offer a carrot and stick. Carrot: offer some extra $$$ for a deal that included Forslund endorsements. Stick: pull endorsement if Forslund is gone.
 
Yes, it is.

This is one of those Big Decisions. The budget is the budget for a reason; you're careful with your shekels so that you can spend them on the right things when you need to. Every organization everywhere has a mechanism to go upstairs: to the owner, to the board, whomever, with the Big Decisions.

Dundon walked away from buying this team, and then said "you know what, I really want this team" so he walked right back. It's not the money. It's the principle: Dundon wants to spend money on certain things, according to a certain plan, ostensibly because he wants a sustainable model. Fine, I get it. Understand that pulling Forslund out of that model is going to do more damage than you realize.

This is A Big Decision, and the buck for those doesn't stop at Donny: it stops at Tommy.

I agree with all that, but the negotiation that we know of so far wasn't with Dundon. It was with Waddell, hence his answering questions about it.

You're absolutely right that the willingness to go over-budget ultimately rests with Dundon. But what we're reacting to right now did not involve Dundon, it involved Waddell getting 17/18 employees signed in order to come in at Dundon's budget, and the 18th guy pushing back enough to force a decision from Dundon in the upcoming days.

I know it's not a huge deal of a difference, but some folks are talking about this like Dundon personally told Forslund to go kick rocks. That hasn't happened (yet).
 
Yup. They might very well be right. I'll still follow the Canes regardless. But the money we spend is literally the only leverage we have.

Would be nice if a high-dollar sponsor were willing to go to the bat and offer a carrot and stick. Carrot: offer some extra $$$ for a deal that included Forslund endorsements. Stick: pull endorsement if Forslund is gone.

Hank how good are your seats?

"If you bring John back, Hank will UPGRADE his season tickets to front row."

Carrot. Stick. High-end sponsor.
 
I agree with all that, but the negotiation that we know of so far wasn't with Dundon. It was with Waddell, hence his answering questions about it.

You're absolutely right that the willingness to go over-budget ultimately rests with Dundon. But what we're reacting to right now did not involve Dundon, it involved Waddell getting 17/18 employees signed in order to come in at Dundon's budget, and the 18th guy pushing back enough to force a decision from Dundon in the upcoming days.

I know it's not a huge deal of a difference, but some folks are talking about this like Dundon personally told Forslund to go kick rocks. That hasn't happened (yet).

If this is right, I hope the radio interview at 8pm this evening with Adam Gold doesn't kick the hornets' nest too much. I'd love for this to not be a yearly occurrence even if he does end up re-signing.
 
If this is right, I hope the radio interview at 8pm this evening with Adam Gold doesn't kick the hornets' nest too much. I'd love for this to not be a yearly occurrence even if he does end up re-signing.

He’s going to be year to year because he doesn’t know what his NBC role is going to be from year to year. It doesn’t make any sense for him to tie himself in for 3 years if Doc quits and national wants him full-time.
 
I agree with all that, but the negotiation that we know of so far wasn't with Dundon. It was with Waddell, hence his answering questions about it.

You're absolutely right that the willingness to go over-budget ultimately rests with Dundon. But what we're reacting to right now did not involve Dundon, it involved Waddell getting 17/18 employees signed in order to come in at Dundon's budget, and the 18th guy pushing back enough to force a decision from Dundon in the upcoming days.

I know it's not a huge deal of a difference, but some folks are talking about this like Dundon personally told Forslund to go kick rocks. That hasn't happened (yet).

Fair point. Negotiations are ongoing. It's just that this is our small window to make our viewpoint known.
 
I heard L'Oreal is stopping using that word.
 
I agree with everyone who says that Forslund is one of the faces of the Canes in the community. I do the Canes 5K and he calls the times as everyone crosses the line. While that seems minor, it is a kick to have him call out your number and time. I hope we can keep him for as long as we can. I do expect him to make the jump to NBC in the not-so distant future.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tryamw and DaveG
Yeah, uh, maybe let's not make that comparison, which is kind of demeaning to actual victims of actual trauma. We're still talking about a hockey team here.
NRS. Thanks for keeping me honest.

I have given this a lot of thought—this may end up being my longest post on this site. I spent quite a few hours and some money supporting organizations that try to help actual victims. So I really thought about what I said and if it was demeaning.

This disconnect seems to be that you and others are assuming the abuse to be violence. Of course domestic violence should be taken more seriously than a sports team. I think we agree.

However, in crisis counseling training we learned that limiting abuse to violence or even obvious verbal abuse misses a good deal of the way that power is used improperly within a relationship. In the training, men (it was almost always men—I admit as a man I sort of had this mindset) would argue that calling "disagreements" or "difficult decisions" abuse would only lead to a victim mentality and in that sense diminished actual abuse. But after learning about how power can be manipulated in relationships to make the less powerful member feel both dependent and insecure, I gained a broader understanding of the concept. One understanding was that many who are being mistreated will argue that the one with power is doing the right thing.

I believe everyone who posts here has, by definition, a relationship with the Canes organization. I believe that within that relationship they are being mistreated. So let me demonstrate what I was referring to. I will refer to partner and you. (I am completely aware that the analogy is far from perfect.)

You struggled with debt and one of the things you really liked about your new partner was his/her commitment to spending within means and having a financial plan.

The partner decides that you spend too much money when you hang out with your long-time friends—so the solution is to ignore the friends.

The partner and you both own vacation property. Yours is at the same lake where several family members also have property. The partner has property in another state, but since partner's maintenance costs are lower the partner makes the decision to sell your property.

You have a handy-woman who not only does her job well but who gives you enjoyment by doing the job with aplomb and having conversations with you that your find meaningful. However, you pay her slightly above the going rate, so partner decides she is an unnecessary expense.

When your relationship began to turn serious, you explicitly asked your partner to help you make tough decisions around your finances. Your debt is all but gone. But you don't have the connections to friends, family, and even a trusted worker that you previously had. By any sensible definition this relationship has become abusive. Your partner used the power you offered to remove things you value beyond their cost.

You could argue that you are better off because your debt is going away. You could argue that you were in debt because your friends had more money and didn't consider your finances when making plans; you could argue that it was just too costly to vacation at the lake where you spend time with your family; you could argue that hiring a handy-person should rightly only be a business transaction. But if you did, you would be enabling your abuser.

Again, I admit there is no moral equivalence. But the point still holds that power is being used to marginalize people, in this case employees and the fans. See we liked Chuck Kaiton's long-time presence and Mike Vellucci's love of developing quality players and equally good young men. We placed real value in the Checkers having a North Carolina connection. We felt good even when the Canes were bad because of how Forslund does his job. Taking all those things away just because you can sure looks like you think your current customers are as important as you previous ones. Some will argue the previous ones weren't abused, but that really just proves my original point.
 
I never participate in the “liking” of posts but that one deserves one. I like how you framed the discussion. There is of course no moral equivalence, but conceptually it works.
 
If this is right, I hope the radio interview at 8pm this evening with Adam Gold doesn't kick the hornets' nest too much. I'd love for this to not be a yearly occurrence even if he does end up re-signing.

So what ever happened with this interview?
 
I only caught the tail end but it seemed like they were just talking hockey. John analyzing the team without a contract. Nice.
No it's not! He's essentially doing skill demonstration for the prospective employers!

"Look at me here analysing hockey in professional fashion Tom Dundon so cheap to not fairly pay for."

"No no no no, John, I'm like L'Oreal, not doing fair no more."
 
Sara Civian put up a story on the Athletic (edit, last night not this morning.)

Short summary: the offer is to be an independent contractor and only receive 50% of previous salary as base, getting more based on attendance. All offers have options with and without fans per Waddell.

Attendance is out of Forslund and Tracy's control, especially now. It certainly isn't Forslund playing hardball here.

And based in this, I've never been happier to have passed on applying for a job than I am to have passed on trying to work in the Canes analytics team. Would I have landed it? Probably not. But my job is a hell of a lot more stable than any job with the Canes right now.
 
Last edited:
I wonder what kind of deals other broadcasters are being offered right now. I get that everything is uncertain and no one knows if there even will be games at all, let alone games with people in attendance. I just also don't think you let someone at the top of their field walk away without doing everything you can to keep them. I don't know. This sucks.
 

Ad

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad