OT: Football Thread

[KirkAlbuquerque]

What a disaster. Even in a season where new stars emerged for the Jets they can’t have a good feeling last too long, and now they’re saddled with what’s turning out to be the worst bust possibly ever, it’s as if they drafted Christian Hackenberg at 2nd overall. The dude simply cannot play QB in the NFL. And Douglas gets all this credit for drafting AVT, Hall, Sauce, Garrett, but missing this hard on a 2nd overall QB is unforgivable imo

 

[sbjnyc]

Goff was near a probowl season this year. Jets would be contenders with Goff.

Sure this year but the Rams had to trade 2 firsts in order to dump Goff to get Stafford (who was mediocre in Detroit but also had a big contract). Goff wasn't that good in LA after he signed his extension (or even before). Most thought the Rams would be the first to give up on a top draft pick early but paid the price. Ultimately they mortgaged their future but at least have a superbowl to show for it.

I think you're right (though Goff is not a cold weather QB) but it also shows how low the bar has been set by Jets QB play. Mike White is the "savior" of the Jets but what other team would he start for?

 

[bouds]

I know I'm bringing up Josh Allen, but he held back a good Bills team for about 2 years. Flashes at times in 2019, but it was a roller coaster, yet his teammates never wavered. Bills fans are the thirstiest in the league, they never gave Allen the business like Wilson got last night. I mean Josh was pretty damn bad at times, but the dude gave it 100, his teammates loved him, and the fans stuck buy him. Flat out thought the guy was a bust, and I was just perplexed why everyone upstate believed in him, when it seemed like he would be no better than their previous QBs during the down years. Hell he looked worse than Tyrod.

It's a different vibe with Wilson, who knows what goes on behind the scenes, but there's a lot more to this story that will come out with time. He clearly is ass on the field, but he might not be much better behind the scenes. Still remember a Bills OL, think it was Eric Wood, saying we love Josh because he's kind of like Fitz but more talented. Even though Josh was shitting the joint up they stuck by him because he was a good teammate and pro.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Sure this year but the Rams had to trade 2 firsts in order to dump Goff to get Stafford (who was mediocre in Detroit but also had a big contract). Goff wasn't that good in LA after he signed his extension (or even before). Most thought the Rams would be the first to give up on a top draft pick early but paid the price. Ultimately they mortgaged their future but at least have a superbowl to show for it.

I think you're right (though Goff is not a cold weather QB) but it also shows how low the bar has been set by Jets QB play. Mike White is the "savior" of the Jets but what other team would he start for?

Last year I had a debate with a poster about the Goff trade. I felt like it was a very good trade for Detroit and I feel Goff has shown that this season. Goff got the Rams to the Superbowl. I do not think he is a top 5 QB but somewhere in the 8-14 range. Guys in the 8-14 range can get it done if the rest of the team is worthy.

 

[sbjnyc]

I know I'm bringing up Josh Allen, but he held back a good Bills team for about 2 years. Flashes at times in 2019, but it was a roller coaster, yet his teammates never wavered. Bills fans are the thirstiest in the league, they never gave Allen the business like Wilson got last night. I mean Josh was pretty damn bad at times, but the dude gave it 100, his teammates loved him, and the fans stuck buy him. Flat out thought the guy was a bust, and I was just perplexed why everyone upstate believed in him, when it seemed like he would be no better than their previous QBs during the down years. Hell he looked worse than Tyrod.

It's a different vibe with Wilson, who knows what goes on behind the scenes, but there's a lot more to this story that will come out with time. He clearly is ass on the field, but he might not be much better behind the scenes. Still remember a Bills OL, think it was Eric Wood, saying we love Josh because he's kind of like Fitz but more talented. Even though Josh was shitting the joint up they stuck by him because he was a good teammate and pro.

I don't think Josh Allen ever looked as bad as Zach Wilson. I still think he is somewhat overrated but he also has another element to his game because of his size.

 

[sbjnyc]

Last year I had a debate with a poster about the Goff trade. I felt like it was a very good trade for Detroit and I feel Goff has shown that this season. Goff got the Rams to the Superbowl. I do not think he is a top 5 QB but somewhere in the 8-14 range. Guys in the 8-14 range can get it done if the rest of the team is worthy.

It was a great trade for Detroit because of the extra draft picks and they sucked with Stafford anyway with the same cap hit.

 

[Ben Grimm]

Wilson got Philly booed! All the Jets QBs have QBRs under 50.

Is Streveler the best Jets QB? They should have kept Geno.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

I know I'm bringing up Josh Allen, but he held back a good Bills team for about 2 years. Flashes at times in 2019, but it was a roller coaster, yet his teammates never wavered. Bills fans are the thirstiest in the league, they never gave Allen the business like Wilson got last night. I mean Josh was pretty damn bad at times, but the dude gave it 100, his teammates loved him, and the fans stuck buy him. Flat out thought the guy was a bust, and I was just perplexed why everyone upstate believed in him, when it seemed like he would be no better than their previous QBs during the down years. Hell he looked worse than Tyrod.

It's a different vibe with Wilson, who knows what goes on behind the scenes, but there's a lot more to this story that will come out with time. He clearly is ass on the field, but he might not be much better behind the scenes. Still remember a Bills OL, think it was Eric Wood, saying we love Josh because he's kind of like Fitz but more talented. Even though Josh was shitting the joint up they stuck by him because he was a good teammate and pro.

Josh Allen progressed in his 2nd season, though. Wilson is and has gotten even worse in his 2nd season.

 

[17futurecap]

The worst thing Josh Allen did in becoming good was making fans of teams with bad QB play think they have the next Josh Allen.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

The worst thing Josh Allen did in becoming good was making fans of teams with bad QB play think they have the next Josh Allen.

Tage Thompson is now doing the same in the NHL

 

[Ben Grimm]

​

Yeah, the Vikes have the whitest unis, but they also have the 32nd ranked defense. Some Cowboys fans think the Boys will lose in the 2nd round even if they play the Vikes. If the Boys play the Bucs in the first round, they lost their season opener to them 19-3.

 

[smoneil]

Don't agree. Jets can't afford a clipboard season with him. If you sign a guy who plays well then why am I bringing Zach Wilsonm back in? If he's not the guy you have to make that decision as early as possible or you lose him for nothing or get stuck with his 5th year option or worse.. Can't afford $200+ million mistakes like Goff, Murray etc. because of stubborn GMs who refuse to believe they can be wrong,

Cap hounds can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Wilson would count more on the Jets cap if he were cut or even if traded than he would by just keeping him on the roster. His 5th year option is still two years away. Being up front about the clipboard/development plan may be the ONLY way to rehab the asset and manage the cap enough to bring in a bridge QB (whether that bridge QB bridges to a re-habbed Wilson or someone else).

 

[smoneil]

The OC is fine whenever a QB not named Zach Wilson is running it. The O-line was decimated by injuries, but yes, it can use a bit of improvement there (wouldn't surprise me if the 1st round pick is a tackle or a fast playmaking LB like Simpson). Mann is a middle-of-the-road punter, I can take or leave him there. Run stuffer, I can see drafting somewhere in the middle rounds. Even though I don't think Joyner has been that bad, a playmaking safety would be nice.

Overall, another good draft class and signing proper free agents, better QB play, and hopefully fewer injuries at least - and they are a playoff team next season.

I agree that a big part of the OL issue is the injury problem, but they have not been "fine" for other QBs. They rack up penalties, let pass rushers right through (did you forget WHY Mike White has injured ribs?), and can't create lanes for the running game with any consistency.

The defense has been above average. It hasn't been "elite." To be elite, they need to improve on their takeaways, pressure the QB more, and get better at lockdown situations.

And whether it's Mann or the ST coaching staff, or the return team personnel, something needs to change with the punting. That unit literally cost us two games this season. That isn't middle of the road.

There's reason for optimism. My point was simply that there are several issues beyond just the QB.

 

[smoneil]

Eli Manning never looked anywhere near THIS awful.

And I don't blame the fans. Injuries and Zach Wilson pissed away a playoff season. The Jets playoff hopes died twice this season. Once when Breece Hall and AVT went down in the Denver game, and when Mike White got injured by Matt Milano in the Buffalo game.

Mike White was 1-2 as a starter. The narrative that he was leading the team to glory is curious considering he was the captain of the ship when it began to sink. Outside of his two huge games (the miracle game last season against the Bengals and the game against league-worst Chicago this year), Mike White is 0-4 as a starter with 1 TD and 8 interceptions. He's a better option that Wilson to end the season, but he isn't the answer long term. He can't get it done against better than average defenses.

 

[smoneil]

What a disaster. Even in a season where new stars emerged for the Jets they can’t have a good feeling last too long, and now they’re saddled with what’s turning out to be the worst bust possibly ever, it’s as if they drafted Christian Hackenberg at 2nd overall. The dude simply cannot play QB in the NFL. And Douglas gets all this credit for drafting AVT, Hall, Sauce, Garrett, but missing this hard on a 2nd overall QB is unforgivable imo

Drafting a QB and developing a QB are two different things. After Sanchez, Darnold, and now Wilson, it seems pretty clear that the Jets issue isn't "missing" with the picks, but rather in how they develop those picks. None of the three should have been day one starters. All were rushed under center too early, particularly considering their lighter college resumes. People all clamor for "our" Josh Allen. Josh Allen sat for half of his rookie year (and if not for injury, he likely would have sat for ALL his rookie year).

 

[sbjnyc]

Cap hounds can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Wilson would count more on the Jets cap if he were cut or even if traded than he would by just keeping him on the roster. His 5th year option is still two years away. Being up front about the clipboard/development plan may be the ONLY way to rehab the asset and manage the cap enough to bring in a bridge QB (whether that bridge QB bridges to a re-habbed Wilson or someone else).

I certainly wouldn't cut him. Draft status counts for something on the trade market. If the jets trade him after June 1 it is a $5.5 million hit per overthecap.com. I think thats around the same cap hit Darnold cost but that was pre June 1. It depends on the kind of trade - are you just getting back draft picks or are you getting a veteran QB back maybe with the latter the cap hits cancel out in some sense. But you sometimes have to eat your mistakes.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Cap hounds can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Wilson would count more on the Jets cap if he were cut or even if traded than he would by just keeping him on the roster. His 5th year option is still two years away. Being up front about the clipboard/development plan may be the ONLY way to rehab the asset and manage the cap enough to bring in a bridge QB (whether that bridge QB bridges to a re-habbed Wilson or someone else).

Its a guaranteed rookie deal so it will have large negative cap (minus 11 mill in 2023 before Jun 1 or minus 5 mill after June 1) if cut next season. Now if they traded him even for a 3rd round pick before June 1 then it would only be a minus 1.8 mill or a cap savings of over 3 mill after June 1

 

[NickyFotiu]

I certainly wouldn't cut him. Draft status counts for something on the trade market. If the jets trade him after June 1 it is a $5.5 million hit per overthecap.com. I think thats around the same cap hit Darnold cost but that was pre June 1. It depends on the kind of trade - are you just getting back draft picks or are you getting a veteran QB back maybe with the latter the cap hits cancel out in some sense. But you sometimes have to eat your mistakes.

I think you may have read that wrong. Cut after 6/1 is a hit of 5.5 in 2023 but a trade after 6/1 would actually save 3.8

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

Mike White was 1-2 as a starter. The narrative that he was leading the team to glory is curious considering he was the captain of the ship when it began to sink. Outside of his two huge games (the miracle game last season against the Bengals and the game against league-worst Chicago this year), Mike White is 0-4 as a starter with 1 TD and 8 interceptions. He's a better option that Wilson to end the season, but he isn't the answer long term. He can't get it done against better than average defenses.

4 of his interceptions came against Buffalo last year where the entire team just stunk and he was forcing things to make something happen.

This year, he should have at least been 2-1 as a starter if Berrios makes that catch in the Vikings game. Mike White did his job there bringing the team back after a disaster of a 1st half.

Mike White did just fine against the Vikings and Buffalo defenses where everyone thought he'd get exposed.

Maybe Mike White isn't the guy (if I had to bet on it, maybe not). However, he deserves more games and a full season next year if it goes that way to figure it out. Assuming they can't get anyone better like a Rodgers, Carr, etc. He's also proven he can run the offense effectively, something Wilson can't do.

 

[smoneil]

4 of his interceptions came against Buffalo last year where the entire just stunk and he was forcing things to make something happen.

This year, he should have at least been 2-1 as a starter if Berrios makes that catch in the Vikings game. Mike White did his job there bringing the team back after a disaster of a 1st half.

Mike White did just fine against the Vikings and Buffalo defenses where everyone thought he'd get exposed.

Maybe Mike White isn't the guy (if I had to bet on it, maybe not). However, he deserves more games and a full season next year if it goes that way to figure it out. Assuming they can't get anyone better like a Rodgers, Carr, etc. He's also proven he can run the offense effectively, something Wilson can't do.

Mike White went to the red zone what, five or six times against the Vikings? 0 TDs. The Vikings have one of the worst pass defenses in the league. Coming off of the Chicago drubbing, people expected White to throw bombs on that pitiful secondary. Afterwards, all we hear are the excuses. Here's a fun stat: In 14 games this season, only two teams failed to throw at least 1 TD pass against the Vikings D. Green Bay and the Jets. But hey, Mike White almost threw a TD against a secondary that has been the league door mat all season.

Yeah, 4 of his interceptions were against Buffalo. Two more were against NE. That's the difference between being the starter and being a 3rd string backup. Starters have to play the good AND the bad teams.

And I'm sorry, but a guy who loses both games, throws no touchdowns, and throws two interceptions didn't "do just fine" against Buffalo and the Vikings. He threw for a lot of yards. Guess what? Wilson threw for a lot of yards against Detroit. He threw for a lot of yards in the first NE game. Still got roasted, and Wilson actually got some TDs against those teams. Yards mean nothing if they don't generate points. Against good defenses, White has shown no ability to generate points.

Does he deserve more opportunity? Maybe. But not as "the" guy for a team that sees itself as a potential contender. He'll be 28 years old next season. The odds of him taking any sort of giant leap from what he's shown thus far is highly improbable.

If the Jets want to be a contender they need to get/develop a good quarterback. Not a "good for the Jets" QB, but a good one. I sometimes feel like our fanbase forgot how to tell the difference because it has been ages since one wore a Jets jersey. If healthy, Mike White should finish the season. Give him the chance to showcase himself and possibly pick up a job as the #1 for a bottom barrel team. If he can't go, maybe let Flacco have one last hurrah. But neither is the long-term answer here (well, neither SHOULD be. But this is the Jets, so they will probably sign MW to a massive contract only to have the fanbase recognize what should have already been obvious, and turn on him by week 3 in favor of a new 5th round draft pick, haha).

 

[17futurecap]

Thinking about the Pats fans sitting there freezing as they get blown out is fun.

 

[Ben Grimm]

I like the Chiefs or Bengals to come out of the AFC.

 

[17futurecap]

I blame myself for Pats coming back.

Sorry!

 

[IceColdOx]

Still not used to a Bills team that adjusts and handles business in trap games. It's a weird feeling.

 

[Ben Grimm]

The G-Men