OT: Football Thread

[sbjnyc]

Well you got me dead to rights on the TDL passing
forgot that

As to the premise, yeah, it is a double edged sword and Niners certainly don't WANT to deal a higher end OL,
but
you are down to 3rd string QB as a starter.

That's a LOT of risk for this season


peace out

49ers don't need a star QB, just a game manager. Can't remember Zach Wilson having a game as good as Purdy's Sunday.

 

[smoneil]

The team culture is more than fine spearheaded by Robert Saleh.

Mike White (who's 27 btw) has only played in about 4-5 full games in his career. Maybe he deserves more time to see what the Jets have in him? Zach Wilson needed a reset at minimum, plain and simple. I question if he's the guy based on what I've seen in 20 games and two seasons, but he needed to be benched right now.

And with the way Zach Wilson was playing most of the year, I don't blame the skill players for their frustration. When you can't even complete a simple screen pass, there's a major issue. That Pats game was one of the most horrific QB performances I've ever seen.

Saleh is babysitting. Which part of the team culture is he spearheading? The part where he let the QB situation get to the point where the team publicly turned on his 2nd year QB? The part where two WRs requested trades and another publicly complained about the team? The part where he has half his team practically celebrating after a loss, just because they got their individual attention? Keyshawn may have wanted them to "throw him the damn ball" but at least he caught it when they did so. The WR room has been embarrassing this season.

Mike White is 3 months away from being 28 (I knew he was still 27, but thought he was a January BD--still, closer to 28 than 26). He's played 5 full games and one partial game. The one partial is one of the two where he didn't throw at least 2 interceptions. And I would ask you to point to the long list of NFL starting calibre quarterbacks who had fewer than 6 games played at the age of 27. He's closer to 30 than he is to 25. It's a safe bet that his development as a player is about finished.

No disagreement at all about the fact that Wilson needs a reset. I think, considering the level of competition he faced in college, they should have had him carrying a clipboard for at LEAST a year right out of the draft.
As for the screen pass everyone has railed on about, I still don't think he missed that pass. I think he threw the ball away. There were two defenders between the receiver and the line of scrimmage and no blockers nearby from what I remember. Had that been a reception, there is a better than 50% chance it would have been a loss. That, combined with Saleh preaching non-stop about how Wilson can't take ANY chances and NEEDS to throw the ball away where there is any doubt created the situation in the second NE game. Lafleur pulled the same shit against GB in the 2019/2020 playoffs, where he ran the game almost as if they didn't HAVE a quarterback because he was terrified of Garoppolo throwing an interception (only 8 pass attempts the whole game). It was ridiculous then and it was ridiculous now.

When the WR room is a mess and a QB whose whole rep was based on his creativity is being coached to take NO risks (and the alternative is a guy who throws picks at nearly 3x the rate as the guy you have no confidence in), at SOME point, you have to look to Mike Lafleur as the problem. The best stretch of football in Wilson's career came in the final 7 games on his rookie season. 5 TDs to just 2 INTs, his completion percentage went up, he had a few games where he racked up some yards on the ground, and all against mostly playoff teams and with a league worst defense behind him. Those were the seven months that Lafleur wasn't working with him (they brought in his personal guy).

 

[smoneil]

Wilson doesn't throw as many picks because he only throws 18 times a game because a) the team doesn't trust him to make plays and b) he's afraid to make plays. Mike White steps up and guns it. Also, neither INT vs the Vikings were his fault, the last one being pretty much a hail mary since it was 4th down with 10 seconds left.

If we're going to erase bad plays where excuses factor in, then we can remove quite a few of Wilson's INTs as well. And again, you've proven my point for me--they call the game differently with Wilson and have him second guessing EVERY instinct by telling him to throw away anything remotely dangerous. What did they think was going to happen? They don't do that with Mike White, even though White throws picks at nearly 3x the rate that Wilson does. It's even worse when you factor in the detail that most of Wilson's INT issues came in his first 5 career games. Over the last 15 games? Wilson has 9 TDs to 7 INTs, and the TDs are against teams like NE, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, and the Eagles. White looked good against the Bears, but the Vikings have one of the worst pass defenses in the league. White put up no TDs and 2 INTs. He had 120 yards of support from the ground game (more than double what Wilson got against NE). He had a stronger OL than what Wilson had against NE (with Fant and Mitchell back). He had a completely healthy WR corps (with Davis back). And he still lost. To the Vikings. They told Wilson to avoid turnovers at all cost. He did, the they lost the game because of the Punter. They put total faith in Mike White against the Vikings, and he threw two picks, shat himself in the red zone, and threw the ball behind Berrios on what would have been a game-securing TD (don't get me started on why they called pass there in the first place or, if they were so set on passing it, that they went to Berrios over one of the multiple TE's they signed for exactly this kind of red zone scenario).

Again--Zach needs a reset and a real OC. Because of the construction of the roster, that means that Mike White is the best option for right now. But the only QB on the Jets roster with the ability to be the guy moving forward is Zach Wilson.

 

[smoneil]

This is…. An odd take.

The jets culture is better than it’s been since the early Rex Ryan days. Stats are telling of performance. Performance leads to contracts. Players have a limited time to earn. There isn’t a team in the league whose players don’t care about their individual performance. Sure, name on the front should matter more than the name on the back and all that, but you also have to be realistic. Anyways, culture wasn’t the issue. It was a sputtering offense. Hall was the only guy keeping it respectable until he went down.

Is White Tom Brady? No, but he’s shown he can move the offense which Wilson had been unable to do. Avoiding turnovers is important, but you also have to score points. You also need to give your defense a break. The defense is good enough to win games, but you’re asking a lot of them when you have 8 3 and outs. Whites only played in what? 6 games? Who’s to say he can’t get better? Wilson had been showing zero progression. You kept waiting for the statement game. The game where he throws over 350 with 3 or 4 TD’s and walks the team down the field late in the 4th to win the game. Flacco looked like prime Peyton in comparison.

I went into more detail in my responses to other posters, but I wanted to address the bold: When you have a team full of players who can be goaded into public controversy/trash talking of coaches and teammates by a cartoon like Rich Cimini...you don't have a good team culture.

 

[NickyFotiu]

I'm a Giants fan not a Jets fan but I'm amazed at the Jets draft. They could have both offensive and defensive ROY. That is despite your RB getting hurt. I have followed football since the 1970's. I can not remember the Jets having a better draft. Maybe the Abraham draft. Or the Gastineau draft. Jets fans must be thrilled.

 

[Rangerfan4life90]

Saleh is babysitting. Which part of the team culture is he spearheading? The part where he let the QB situation get to the point where the team publicly turned on his 2nd year QB? The part where two WRs requested trades and another publicly complained about the team? The part where he has half his team practically celebrating after a loss, just because they got their individual attention? Keyshawn may have wanted them to "throw him the damn ball" but at least he caught it when they did so. The WR room has been embarrassing this season.

Mike White is 3 months away from being 28 (I knew he was still 27, but thought he was a January BD--still, closer to 28 than 26). He's played 5 full games and one partial game. The one partial is one of the two where he didn't throw at least 2 interceptions. And I would ask you to point to the long list of NFL starting calibre quarterbacks who had fewer than 6 games played at the age of 27. He's closer to 30 than he is to 25. It's a safe bet that his development as a player is about finished.

No disagreement at all about the fact that Wilson needs a reset. I think, considering the level of competition he faced in college, they should have had him carrying a clipboard for at LEAST a year right out of the draft.
As for the screen pass everyone has railed on about, I still don't think he missed that pass. I think he threw the ball away. There were two defenders between the receiver and the line of scrimmage and no blockers nearby from what I remember. Had that been a reception, there is a better than 50% chance it would have been a loss. That, combined with Saleh preaching non-stop about how Wilson can't take ANY chances and NEEDS to throw the ball away where there is any doubt created the situation in the second NE game. Lafleur pulled the same shit against GB in the 2019/2020 playoffs, where he ran the game almost as if they didn't HAVE a quarterback because he was terrified of Garoppolo throwing an interception (only 8 pass attempts the whole game). It was ridiculous then and it was ridiculous now.

When the WR room is a mess and a QB whose whole rep was based on his creativity is being coached to take NO risks (and the alternative is a guy who throws picks at nearly 3x the rate as the guy you have no confidence in), at SOME point, you have to look to Mike Lafleur as the problem. The best stretch of football in Wilson's career came in the final 7 games on his rookie season. 5 TDs to just 2 INTs, his completion percentage went up, he had a few games where he racked up some yards on the ground, and all against mostly playoff teams and with a league worst defense behind him. Those were the seven months that Lafleur wasn't working with him (they brought in his personal guy).

Lol, "babysitting." If you can't see how Saleh has changed the culture here already in his 2nd season, then I can't help you, unfortunately. A lot of other coaches wouldn't have dealt with the issues this season as well as he did. The Jets season could have derailed weeks ago.

And Lafleur isn't really the issue. His offense has been fine when any QB not named Zach Wilson is running it.

But I agree. If Zach Wilson could somehow figure it out, he's definitely the most talented QB on the Jets roster. Unfortunately, you can't take Mike White's brain and put it into Zach Wilson's body.

If we're going to erase bad plays where excuses factor in, then we can remove quite a few of Wilson's INTs as well. And again, you've proven my point for me--they call the game differently with Wilson and have him second guessing EVERY instinct by telling him to throw away anything remotely dangerous. What did they think was going to happen? They don't do that with Mike White, even though White throws picks at nearly 3x the rate that Wilson does. It's even worse when you factor in the detail that most of Wilson's INT issues came in his first 5 career games. Over the last 15 games? Wilson has 9 TDs to 7 INTs, and the TDs are against teams like NE, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, and the Eagles. White looked good against the Bears, but the Vikings have one of the worst pass defenses in the league. White put up no TDs and 2 INTs. He had 120 yards of support from the ground game (more than double what Wilson got against NE). He had a stronger OL than what Wilson had against NE (with Fant and Mitchell back). He had a completely healthy WR corps (with Davis back). And he still lost. To the Vikings. They told Wilson to avoid turnovers at all cost. He did, the they lost the game because of the Punter. They put total faith in Mike White against the Vikings, and he threw two picks, shat himself in the red zone, and threw the ball behind Berrios on what would have been a game-securing TD (don't get me started on why they called pass there in the first place or, if they were so set on passing it, that they went to Berrios over one of the multiple TE's they signed for exactly this kind of red zone scenario).

Again--Zach needs a reset and a real OC. Because of the construction of the roster, that means that Mike White is the best option for right now. But the only QB on the Jets roster with the ability to be the guy moving forward is Zach Wilson.

Maybe the throw wasn't "fully" perfect, but that's a catch Berrios has to make. And I love how point out White's 2 interceptions when the last one was essentially a hail mary lol. At least he actually throws to his targets and not over them or under them like Wilson has this season.

 

[Barnaby]

Saleh is babysitting. Which part of the team culture is he spearheading? The part where he let the QB situation get to the point where the team publicly turned on his 2nd year QB? The part where two WRs requested trades and another publicly complained about the team? The part where he has half his team practically celebrating after a loss, just because they got their individual attention? Keyshawn may have wanted them to "throw him the damn ball" but at least he caught it when they did so. The WR room has been embarrassing this season.

Mike White is 3 months away from being 28 (I knew he was still 27, but thought he was a January BD--still, closer to 28 than 26). He's played 5 full games and one partial game. The one partial is one of the two where he didn't throw at least 2 interceptions. And I would ask you to point to the long list of NFL starting calibre quarterbacks who had fewer than 6 games played at the age of 27. He's closer to 30 than he is to 25. It's a safe bet that his development as a player is about finished.

No disagreement at all about the fact that Wilson needs a reset. I think, considering the level of competition he faced in college, they should have had him carrying a clipboard for at LEAST a year right out of the draft.
As for the screen pass everyone has railed on about, I still don't think he missed that pass. I think he threw the ball away. There were two defenders between the receiver and the line of scrimmage and no blockers nearby from what I remember. Had that been a reception, there is a better than 50% chance it would have been a loss. That, combined with Saleh preaching non-stop about how Wilson can't take ANY chances and NEEDS to throw the ball away where there is any doubt created the situation in the second NE game. Lafleur pulled the same shit against GB in the 2019/2020 playoffs, where he ran the game almost as if they didn't HAVE a quarterback because he was terrified of Garoppolo throwing an interception (only 8 pass attempts the whole game). It was ridiculous then and it was ridiculous now.

When the WR room is a mess and a QB whose whole rep was based on his creativity is being coached to take NO risks (and the alternative is a guy who throws picks at nearly 3x the rate as the guy you have no confidence in), at SOME point, you have to look to Mike Lafleur as the problem. The best stretch of football in Wilson's career came in the final 7 games on his rookie season. 5 TDs to just 2 INTs, his completion percentage went up, he had a few games where he racked up some yards on the ground, and all against mostly playoff teams and with a league worst defense behind him. Those were the seven months that Lafleur wasn't working with him (they brought in his personal guy).

I really don’t see this culture problem, but that’s fine. We can disagree. I see a team that has strayed out of trouble and believes they can win for the first time in a long time.

You use a lot to frame your argument that’s out of context. White had 2 interceptions on 57 passes. The last was 4th and goal and he just needed to toss it into the end zone. Wilson has fewer interceptions because the coaches don’t trust him. Every time he gets rope to be creative he tends to make awful decisions. A typical Wilson stat line is 10 for 19 with 125 yards with two coulda been picks that the defense drops because they were darts. Of course those darts are tougher for his own team to catch. They’ve let White and Flacco air it out a lot more. Two WR requesting trades. Mims did all the right things, but he was frustrated he slid down the depth chart after some additions and wasn’t dressing. Moore was a different situation, but again… it was based on involvement. These guys aren’t trashing the team or getting arrested.

As for Lafleur. I’m not ready to fire him, but he has done some strange things. I haven’t been a big fan. His run/pass ratio has been wildly off in some games. It doesn’t have to be 50/50 but White and Flacco throwing near 60 times in a game is a bit strange. It feels like when I played Madden as a kid. Passing is more fun so at a certain point you just stop running.

No one is calling Mike White Joe Montana but there’s no denying the Jets have a better chance to win with White. As for Zach, he needed the break. He’ll get another chance. He was the 2nd pick and he has all the physical ability you can ask for. Unfortunately he’s been super conservative or super reckless and not much in between. He also lacks touch and he misses a handful of passes a game which he should hit. That’s why people praise White for making the passes he should.

Anyways in a nutshell. I disagree on the culture. I thought it was much worse under Gase. The Jamal Adams thing was a pain. Most guys seem to like each other. They seem to believe they can win. Wilson who is the guy you’re defending really seems to be the guy who’s shown the least maturity.

I’m not sure what your point is on White. He’s been good. Is he a top 5 QB or likely to be holding a Super Bowl mvp trophy anytime soon? No. For right now he just might be good enough to get them in the playoffs. I kind of view him like I viewed Fitzpatrick his one really good year here. Any extra is gravy. I want to believe Wilson is the answer, but I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t concerned. I just haven’t seen progression. If this were a 3 win team then I’d say keep sending him out and we’ll see. This defense is too good to tank a year.

 

[Barnaby]

Well you got me dead to rights on the TDL passing
forgot that

As to the premise, yeah, it is a double edged sword and Niners certainly don't WANT to deal a higher end OL,
but
you are down to 3rd string QB as a starter.

That's a LOT of risk for this season


peace out

Any truth to the rumor the NYJ were inquiring about Kreider as a RB?

 

[bernmeister]

Any truth to the rumor the NYJ were inquiring about Kreider as a RB?

news to me!

 

[sbjnyc]

Elijah Moore at the Knick game … first jet i remember seeing at the garden in years.

 

[Kocur26]

 

[Guyute]

Man those were unreal games today

 

[I Eat Crow]

Why the f*** didn't Love lay Smith the f*** out?

Men against boys. Tempted to turn the game off already.

 

[romba]

Why the f*** didn't Love lay Smith the f*** out?

Men against boys. Tempted to turn the game off already.

No way he hangs on to that if he trucks him, Love thinking he can pick it instead of playing actual D

 

[Boris Zubov]

Why the f*** didn't Love lay Smith the f*** out?

Men against boys. Tempted to turn the game off already.

That was beyond pathetic.

 

[Crease]

Weather game in Buffalo and MLF has the Jets in shotgun formation on first downs.

 

[LeetchisGod]

The Giants are really shitting the bed badly. They simply aren't ready for a game of this magnitude.

 

[Boris Zubov]

I've never seen anything like that punt before.

 

[romba]

What a joke, this is practice squad versus top tier pros.

Every week we see the Giants D taking penalties giving the opponents opportunity after opportunity to score, so undisciplined.

Also play action on 3rd and 6 right after a loss on a run, genius for play calling there

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

O-line not giving us a chance so far , getting blown up instantly

 

[I Eat Crow]

What a joke, this is practice squad versus top tier pros.

Every week we see the D taking penalties giving the opponents opportunity after opportunity to score, so undisciplined.

The defense has been ass since McKinney went down with an injury doing something stupid.

I can honestly see them losing out and finishing 7-9-1 now

 

[Bob Richards]

Giants getting f***ing obliterated lmfao

The defense has been ass since McKinney went down with an injury doing something stupid.

I can honestly see them losing out and finishing 7-9-1 now

We lost McKinney to an ATV accident during the bye week and lost Adoree Jackson because our coach had the big brained decision to make him our punt returner.

Two devastating defensive injuries that were insanely idiotic and 100% avoidable.

 

[romba]

What are the odds the Eagles start playing prevent D now allowing the giants to dink and dunk their way back? 0%. They smell blood and want to crush the children beneath their boots and then kicking them in the balls after.

At least my son is young enough he enjoys the commercials and gets joy from them

 

[IronBloodedLion]

What are the odds the Eagles start playing prevent D now allowing the giants to dink and dunk their way back? 0%. They smell blood and want to crush the children beneath their boots and then kicking them in the balls after.

At least my son is young enough he enjoys the commercials and gets joy from them

Against a rival? They’re going to step on our throats.

 

[romba]

Against a rival? They’re going to step on our throats.

Apparently on Philly talk radio all the callers wanted to speak about this week was the cowboys, they don’t see us as in the same league, because we ain’t.