Value of: Flyers trading up

[Dan Kelly]

That is fine if you are incapable of forming your own opinions.

I must be able to form my own opinion because it's opposite of yours

 

[FlyTimmo]

I must be able to form my own opinion because it's opposite of yours

Your opinion: "Scouts... Blah... Blah". That isn't an opinion, that is piggybacking. If you think he is going to be great, fine. But at least try to validate that with your own words/opinion.

 

[Philadelphia Ducks]

I know you want young but I'd do Hoffman for Sanheim and one of those 1sts

? no thanks

 

[stempniaksen]

At 4, no. At 3, possibly. At 2, yes.

You're not getting a top-five pick for that package. There's zero precedent for that kind of deal going down.

 

[FlyTimmo]

You're not getting a top-five pick for that package. There's zero precedent for that kind of deal going down.

That's fine.

 

[xNogaitx]

You're not getting a top-five pick for that package. There's zero precedent for that kind of deal going down.

Zadina for M. Frost + 15th overall (to be used to draft another C prospect) is something MTL might have to consider if they can't land a C from a Pacioretty trade/have no more hopes of signing Tavares).

But I do agree that 15th + 29th overall is technically not of value to obtain 3rd overall. There would have to be some sort of later round pick swap to take place I think as well (i.e. Flyers' 48th overall in exchange for MTL's 65th overall) or an added roster player to such a deal.

But M. Frost has had an incredible progression just like Poehling in the last year so, that does raise my interest I must say.

 

[Tripod]

Zadina for M. Frost + 15th overall (to be used to draft another C prospect) is something MTL might have to consider if they can't land a C from a Pacioretty trade/have no more hopes of signing Tavares).

But I do agree that 15th + 29th overall is technically not of value to obtain 3rd overall. There would have to be some sort of later round pick swap to take place I think as well (i.e. Flyers' 48th overall in exchange for MTL's 65th overall) or an added roster player to such a deal.

But M. Frost has had an incredible progression just like Poehling in the last year so, that does raise my interest I must say.

Philly would not do that though.

I like Zadina...and live in Halifax. But I much rather keep Frost for the #3C scoring C spot and Philly still has Giroux and Lindblom at LW for the next 4 years. They can make due without Zadina.

Giroux Couturier Konecny
Lindblom Patrick Voracek

I sit tight with the Flyers 2 1st rounders and draft the best F and best D to add to the stable of kids.

Oh...and I look to trade Simmonds.

 

[Dan Kelly]

Your opinion: "Scouts... Blah... Blah". That isn't an opinion, that is piggybacking. If you think he is going to be great, fine. But at least try to validate that with your own words/opinion.

"Your opinion: scouts....blah blah....that isn't an opinion"

Wahlstrom will be greater than Svechnikov and Zadina....in my opinion.

 

[Ruck Over]

1st and small add is the current price for Zuc; if no increased add then logic suggests NY would take the best 1st, all things being =.
I am happy to keep Buchenvich.

Do you wish to upgrade the offer? It is a rental situation, but that's the market in recent years.

If I threw in the TB 2018 1st w/Zuc, would you do
both
St. Lou + Philly 1sts?

Just the premise of your trade is totally off. Why are the Flyers keeping their rental player, and trading for another?

Any way you slice it, no thank you. Do not want, have no interest, not at all approaching desired intent of movement, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Kraken Jokes]

Zadina for M. Frost + 15th overall (to be used to draft another C prospect) is something MTL might have to consider if they can't land a C from a Pacioretty trade/have no more hopes of signing Tavares).

But I do agree that 15th + 29th overall is technically not of value to obtain 3rd overall. There would have to be some sort of later round pick swap to take place I think as well (i.e. Flyers' 48th overall in exchange for MTL's 65th overall) or an added roster player to such a deal.

But M. Frost has had an incredible progression just like Poehling in the last year so, that does raise my interest I must say.

Yeah, I feel Frost has raised his stock a bit this year where he is no longer considered "a former 27th overall pick" but a little more. The advantage it gives Montreal in terms of Pacioretty is that there would no longer be pressure to obtain a C in the deal and they could just go for the best value possible.

 

[FlyTimmo]

"Your opinion: scouts....blah blah....that isn't an opinion"

Wahlstrom will be greater than Svechnikov and Zadina....in my opinion.

I suppose you can call it an opinion, but it is a shame that you can't come up with your "own" opinions rather than just blindly riding scouts.

 

[Tripod]

Yeah, I feel Frost has raised his stock a bit this year where he is no longer considered "a former 27th overall pick" but a little more. The advantage it gives Montreal in terms of Pacioretty is that there would no longer be pressure to obtain a C in the deal and they could just go for the best value possible.

It does sort of suck for Montreal to have such a high pick, in a draft that is weak at C. But Philly is not trading Frost. They need him as Hextall believes in building thru the C, D and G.

And as stated, Philly has Giroux, Konecny, Voracek and Lindblom for the next 4 years in their top 6 so they don't "need" to trade multiple assets for a higher ranked prospect.

They just need the other kids like Frost, Vorobyev, Aube-Kubel, Ratcliffe, Allison, Laczynski, Rubstov, Strome, Sushko, Kase, etc... to just keep developing.

 

[Insulin]

"Your opinion: scouts....blah blah....that isn't an opinion"

Wahlstrom will be greater than Svechnikov and Zadina....in my opinion.

You asked why Wahlstrom was overrated and he gave you his reasons while admitting he would still take him in the 7-9 range. You then completely ignored his reasons and said you prefer the scouts(which is totally fine), yet those scouts you're agreeing with have him slotted exactly in the 7-9 range.

Just wanted to point out you asked for his opinion on a player, he gave it to you and then you completely ignored it. You're riding with the scouts list where they rank the player in the exact same area FlyTimmo has him, he just wouldn't take him in the top five.

If he's just a ride along on a line with Hughes, then in my opinion, professional scouts would have noticed this and ranked him accordingly. The fact that he's ranked in the area of #7 or #8 tells me that he's got Talent of his own. I'll go with the scouts on this one.

 

[Magua]

He has been paired with Jack Hughes for a while now and it is very evident that Hughes is the driver on that line. Hughes dominates shifts and it seems like Wahlstrom is just along for the ride. Also, he can come off as a floater at times and has a case of tunnel vision. He makes unnecessary 1 on 1 plays in situations that don't call for it, and I have concerns about his all-around game. Don't get me wrong, he has fantastic physical tools and I'd still take Wahlstrom around ~7-9. But, I am not giving up two mid 1sts and Simmonds to get him.

This sounds familiar. But it’s a good opinion, I must say!

 

[MagicalRazor]

why not move one of your young d for a proven winger and keep your picks ? or take a run for your home boy JVR in UFA ? like as a leafs fan id give nylander up for one of your young D

 

[ponder719]

why not move one of your young d for a proven winger and keep your picks ? or take a run for your home boy JVR in UFA ? like as a leafs fan id give nylander up for one of your young D

In order:

We are currently playing a defense featuring Andrew MacDonald, Brandon Manning, and Bad Radko Gudas. Even if next year we get Good Radko, we still need to develop enough young defensemen to convince our coach to play people who have talent. Until we have our defense fixed, moving defensemen (at least, one of the big four) is a no go. Now, if someone calls and asks for Hagg, we might be willing to talk. The team might offer Morin, though I wouldn't. But Provorov, Gostisbehere, Sanheim, and Myers go absolutely nowhere, and they're the ones who would bring the kind of return people are talking about.

We don't need a proven winger. We're looking for someone who can grow with the team. If we needed a proven winger, we could sign that Simmonds guy.

JVR? Been there, done that, too infuriating. More importantly, he wouldn't get PP1 time on our roster (even if we move Simmonds along, that slot would go to Nolan Patrick), so his production would be diminished on our roster. We need to be looking at players who provide most of their value at even strength and on the penalty kill, and frankly, we shouldn't be signing anyone to a contract like JVR would be looking for. Hell, we traded Schenn before he asked for something like that, and I'd rather have Schenn than JVR. When FA comes around, we should be looking at the next tier down, a guy like Grabner. Frankly, we should have traded for and extended Grabner at the deadline.

As for Nylander, I would absolutely love to have him. Problem is, you'd rightly demand Sanheim be the key element of the Flyers' package, and we can't justify that. If you were talking about a deal featuring Morin, different story, but most Leafs fans would probably kill you dead for it.

 

[pheasant]

If Philly would move two 1st rounders and Wayne Simmonds to move up in the draft, then they should talk to Arizona.

If the Coyotes don't win the 1st overall pick, then they might be convinced to trade it. And a package like that would sound really, really good. Chayka wants to win next season, just like he intended to this season. And the strong lay of the team in the 2nd half will have him (right or wrong) thinking he of the playoffs next season.

Their biggest flaw now is scoring from the forwards. Keller and Stepan are looking good. But they could really use a goal scoring winger. Putting Simmonds on the top line would make for a formidable unit, and the rest of the roster is good enough to fill out the rest.

Plus trading away a top 5 pick won't look so crazy when you get 2 later picks in that round in return.

 

[bernmeister]

Just the premise of your trade is totally off. Why are the Flyers keeping their rental player, and trading for another?

Any way you slice it, no thank you. Do not want, have no interest, not at all approaching desired intent of movement, etc. etc. etc.

Fine, just to be clear here.

OP had those 2 picks + Sim for an elite W.
W was specified.
That was the ask/premise.

No one has offered an elite W.
No one offered a premium W for that price.

Various secondary level non-elite quality Ws were proffered.
Canadians - MaxPax
Rangers - Zuc
etc

Idea was if you were going all in with the 2 picks, would you do 3 1sts for Zuc + Buch.

That was a no.

Just saying this evolved off of OP premise.
Thanks for courtesy reply.

 

[Ruck Over]

Fine, just to be clear here.

OP had those 2 picks + Sim for an elite W.
W was specified.
That was the ask/premise.

No one has offered an elite W.
No one offered a premium W for that price.

Various secondary level non-elite quality Ws were proffered.
Canadians - MaxPax
Rangers - Zuc
etc

Idea was if you were going all in with the 2 picks, would you do 3 1sts for Zuc + Buch.

That was a no.

Just saying this evolved off of OP premise.
Thanks for courtesy reply.

My response was a bit pithy, true. Thank you for the rational, mature, and measured response.

As a Flyers fan, the trade may not have merit as originally outlined. However, the basis for making a move at all is to turn a current asset into a future asset. The base is trading Simmonds, the two 1st picks are sweetners.

I disagree with your value assessment of Zuc initially. Top that off with the trade not meeting any of the requirements of the Flyers, it just seemed like a lazy send up worthy of ridicule. I would include the MaxPax to Flyers in a similar fashion, more so because of his similar contract situation. Zuc, on the Flyers currently, does not so improve the team at his age to require such a return. He is clearly better than some current Flyers. But not so much better than top 6 Flyers for the $/contract + loss opportunity cost. I'm too unfamiliar with Buch to make an honest evaluation of the full trade.

Elite wing in this case could've been Pool Party a year ago, or Robby Fabbri. (Because a young reliable 3C with upside is also a need.)

tl,dr; How much can the Flyers get for Simmonds + PHL 2018 1st + StL 2018 1st (if not top 10) to put all eggs in one (or two) baskets?

 

[Hockeypete49]

Hmmmm. The Habs have an elite scoring winger who can score 30+ fairly consistently.

How about Pacioretty for that package?

Hell I would rather have JVR back than mr. softie.

 

[Flyerfan47]

The flyers have 2 picks in the first round, a packed prospect pool, and could use an elite scoring winger. I love Simmonds but don’t see him as a part of our future anymore. How far could this package move them up and would there be any teams interested?

Stl 1st
Phi 1st
Simmonds

Prospects could be added as sweeteners although I personally would be reluctant to trade Myers, Hart, Frost, and anybody on the roster not named Hagg.

Hart , He's NOT going anyplace so his name needs to be gone ! Frost I dont care as much about if an elite goal scorer can be had. Frost wont be an elite nhl goal scorer imo. I think a few prospects will be up for sale for the right price.

 

[Flyerfan47]

Hmmmm. The Habs have an elite scoring winger who can score 30+ fairly consistently.

How about Pacioretty for that package?

NO ! Soon to be 30 year old with one more year on his deal, and you want that package ? PLEASE

 

[Flyerfan47]

He already said he was sort of joking.

Sort of joking gets you deservedly ripped. Either you're serious or your not

 

[FlyTimmo]

This sounds familiar. But it’s a good opinion, I must say!

Great minds think alike

Also, I am blown away by Jack Hughes, and I try to watch him when I can. So I have seen a fair bit of Wahlstrom, and I agreed with your prior points to a tee.

Edit: One player I wish I could see more of Akil Thomas, and I was wondering if you had seen him play.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Just seems like a really weird package. What bottom team is going to give up a top 5 pick for and older F and 2 lesser picks? Makes a lot more sense to deal Simmonds to a contender for futures, and then package those futures and your picks to move up.