Confirmed with Link: Flyers Great Ryan Johansen Placed On Waivers For Purpose Of Terminating Contract Due To "Material Breach" (NHLPA Files Grievance 9/26)

[Beef Invictus]

He's under contract. He played ALL 63 games right up to the trade. Didn't miss one.

Then suddenly the moment he's traded & sent to the AHL he is incapable of playing hockey?

Again, he's under contract. If he doesn't want to report to the AHL, fine, but he doesn't get paid & ultimately his contract gets voided.

Those are the consequences.

And if the injury was that debilitating at the beginning of March, and he needs "extensive" surgery, there's no excuse for it being nearly 6 months later, 3-4 weeks before training camp, and he STILL hasn't had surgery, let alone begun rehab. That never happens.

Why are people pretending like they don't understand how injuries and players rights about injuries work? If this is what defense of the team requires, then they shouldn't be defended.

Briere said he was injured and that it kept him off the roster. They cannot compel him to play elsewhere if they deem him too injured for the NHL.

 

[prototypical4thliner]

Kind of a weird question because Johansen's injury status really has nothing to do with them because he never played for the Flyers or the Phantoms. He played 63 games in a row for Colorado, then said he was too injured to report after the trade, and also too injured to be bought out this summer. Now he's been recorded busting moves on the dancefloor. So I'd worry more about his camp will do under scrutiny.

What I mean is that the Flyers docs had to sign off on him. He played in Colorado as well. If we are going off the presumption that the breach of contract was that he was indeed healthy enough to play and didn’t (whether by his or the flyers doing), our medical staff is going to be looked at here.

They haven’t exactly been a glowing beacon of hope for this franchise.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Why are people pretending like they don't understand how injuries and players rights about injuries work? If this is what defense of the team requires, then they shouldn't be defended.

Briere said he was injured and that it kept him off the roster. They cannot compel him to play elsewhere if they deem him too injured for the NHL.

If they deemed him "too injured" to play, they wouldn't be terminating his contract for a material breach.

It's the end of August, and he still hasn't had surgery for his supposedly unplayable injury that he played on for all 63 previous games of the season.

That tells you right there he isn't interested in playing. And obviously the Flyers gathered additional evidence that bolsters their case.

 

[ponder719]

What I mean is that the Flyers docs had to sign off on him. He played in Colorado as well. If we are going off the presumption that the breach of contract was that he was indeed healthy enough to play and didn’t (whether by his or the flyers doing), our medical staff is going to be looked at here.

They haven’t exactly been a glowing beacon of hope for this franchise.

This, more than anything, is why I hope the Flyers win the case. If the outcome of this is management getting pissed off enough to reevaluate our relationship with the Malpractice Brigade, then everyone wins. Team gets better doctors, players get better health outcomes, fans don't have to wonder who's next to end up half-dead in a bathtub, it'd be good all around.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

Just for your interest Mates:

Clients of Overhardt:

Players with Torts background: Dubinsky, Kessler, Bieksa,
Young Players with problems with the Franchise or Torts: Cutter, Farabee,
Players with Flyers and Overhardt roots: Brian Elliott, Sean Walker, Helge Grans,

For me this is obvious! This is a personal thing! This is not just business!

I have no proof, but its pretty telling!

In the old days, they'd have given him a real injury to replace the fake one. Not sure that's what we want to be harking back to.

At least they would be true to what they say in every f***ing interview! This fake toughness is tiresome!

 

[Weltschmerz]

This, more than anything, is why I hope the Flyers win the case. If the outcome of this is management getting pissed off enough to reevaluate our relationship with the Malpractice Brigade, then everyone wins. Team gets better doctors, players get better health outcomes, fans don't have to wonder who's next to end up half-dead in a bathtub, it'd be good all around.

If they win the case why would they change anything?

 

[Beef Invictus]

If your first line is true, then he is absolutely in breach of contract! The stipulation isn’t “injured enough not to play in AHL but ok for NHL.” Play or not - period. The team decides where.

We can judge whether they should fight it or not but I’d be pissed if somebody was trying to steal money being a fake as well. Even when offered 2/3 of that to just go away!

No, it is not. Wayne Simmonds could have stopped playing at any point in the year he needed about 149 surgeries in the offseason. Despite playing through those injuries, he could have hit a point where he decided not to do it anymore. That would not have been a breach of contract. Players do have rights.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If they deemed him "too injured" to play, they wouldn't be terminating his contract for a material breach.

This is an amusing presumption of competence. They did do that. In April. Said it was a medical issue that had kept him off the ice. We know that Flyers med staff did look him over. We know now that it's his hip. And it is claimed he is having surgery. Their case is bad.

It's the end of August, and he still hasn't had surgery for his supposedly unplayable injury that he played on for all 63 previous games of the season.

That tells you right there he isn't interested in playing. And obviously the Flyers gathered additional evidence that bolsters their case.

Injuries don't have to render you "unplayable" to justify not playing.

 

[ponder719]

If they win the case why would they change anything?

Winning the case (presuming the material breach is what we all think it is) is concrete proof that Johansen wasn't injured sufficiently to go on LTIR, which the medical staff should have flagged. If they had, then he would have had to refuse assignment, which would have been a material breach and they could have terminated his contract last year. The medical team signing off on this injury is what forced the song and dance we've been through over the past few months.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to retain a medical team whose incompetence meant I had to pay out a pile of money to a pain in the ass, instead of facilitating me getting rid of him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

And to clarify, yeah, I speculate Johansen is probably acting in bad faith here. But that's the thing with injuries. They're murky. This isn't like working on an engine and you can tell exactly what's broken and when it is working. The whole dynamic between players and teams and doctors and the league runs on everyone operating in good faith. I strongly suspect Johansen is not acting in good faith. I suspect he is actually injured, since the Flyers have admitted he was, and based on the mega late timing of this surgery, I speculate he's been dragging it out on purpose.

All speculation because we are a ways from learning more, and may never know the actual truth.

Problem is, when he got here Briere announced that Johansen would not play in the NHL. That was that. He had no shot, it wasn't an option. He reportedly was willing to work with Tortorella and they were unwilling to work with him. The team didn't act in good faith with him, and now I bet he isn't acting in good faith with them. I think the team has as much chance of winning this issue as Johansen had of winning an NHL spot on the team. They sowed, they reap.

 

[bleachdrinker]

Ryan Ellis is probably scrubbing his socials as we speak…

 

[MrGuyPerson]

So much hostility here guys. Everyone is so tense. One thing I wonder, is if they Term the contract does his cap get removed while he contests or does the money not come off until the the termination is final?

On a separate, but related note, I see some people debating the validity of the Termination/the flyers chances of winning. To those questioning if it will work, I answer with another question : Do you believe it is likely that a millionaire can employ a better legal team than the legal fleet kept on retainer by a monopolistic conglomerate? Follow on question : Do you believe it is likely that said monopolistic corporation did not have their fleet of lawyers review said contract in depth and determined they had built enough of a case to win any possible contention prior to allowing this move to be made?

 

[StreetHawk]

Winning the case (presuming the material breach is what we all think it is) is concrete proof that Johansen wasn't injured sufficiently to go on LTIR, which the medical staff should have flagged. If they had, then he would have had to refuse assignment, which would have been a material breach and they could have terminated his contract last year. The medical team signing off on this injury is what forced the song and dance we've been through over the past few months.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to retain a medical team whose incompetence meant I had to pay out a pile of money to a pain in the ass, instead of facilitating me getting rid of him.

How their medical team handled it once RyJo said he was injured is vital. What was documented, assessed, etc. Whether they placed him on IR even while assigned to the A, which if they did, really hurts their position as they do then acknowledge he was hurt, but if he was just scratched for the rest of the season, then that helps them. Plus, they should and would have done an exit physical (in case they needed to buy him out), so their findings or reports there would be important.

So a lot had to fall right for Phi and how they recorded and reported things to be able to claim a breach. It's hard, in corporate settings to fire an employee with cause unless they do something that is in clear violation of their employee agreement. Poor performance, there is a lot of hoops a company needs to go through to try and give the EE a chance to improve before they can claim cause.

 

[Beef Invictus]

So much hostility here guys. Everyone is so tense. One thing I wonder, is if they Term the contract does his cap get removed while he contests or does the money not come off until the the termination is final?

On a separate, but related note, I see some people debating the validity of the Termination/the flyers chances of winning. To those questioning if it will work, I answer with another question : Do you believe it is likely that a millionaire can employ a better legal team than the legal fleet kept on retainer by a monopolistic conglomerate? Follow on question : Do you believe it is likely that said monopolistic corporation did not have their fleet of lawyers review said contract in depth and determined they had built enough of a case to win any possible contention prior to allowing this move to be made?

The NHLPA will be fighting this, not Johansen. And when the notion of a team punishing a player for being injured as a means of making guaranteed contracts not-so-guaranteed is on the table, I expect they'd fight tooth and nail.

 

[renberg]

Just a thought; are the Flyers operating on their own here with RyJo? The decision to shed him also affects Nashville. I’d like to think that they discussed this with Nashville.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Just a thought; are the Flyers operating on their own here with RyJo? The decision to shed him also affects Nashville. I’d like to think that they discussed this with Nashville.

I think that could be flirting with a player strike-level crisis. Not joking. Two teams who stand to benefit from a player's contract getting nixed working together in some capacity, to kill a contract for not believing a player is as injured as he says? Guaranteed contracts are sacrosanct to the NHLPA, adding handy loopholes for teams to dodge them would not be accepted.

So, hopefully they have not done that

 

[deadhead]

Yeah, pissed at myself for getting into bed with the guy. That's what leadership is. Self-evaluations need to be brutally honest and you can only worry about what you can control.

You have no idea if the man is hurt or not and it is incredibly irresponsible to keep insisting you do.

Disclaimer: I don't believe either side. I don't like either side.

I don't know if he was hurt, I do know the AHL demotion was not the issue the Flyers got upset about.
Because it was irrelevant to the team, they paid him either way and didn't raise a fuss.

The issue comes down to using the injury to block a buyout this summer.
That hurt the Flyers, reduced their ability to make trades or invoke using the LTIR until needed (allowing them to accumulate cap room for the TDL).
If they thought the injury was legitimate, I doubt anything happens, the cost of obtaining that 1st rd pick.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

He could have had a hip injury that he was willing to play through in the NHL, but not willing to tolerate that for the AHL. Ego stuff; likewise, his hip injury could be bad enough to be a problem when playing hockey, but not bad enough to keep him from celebrating his own wedding, since weddings are much less demanding than NHL hockey. With a player with his personality, they could have just stashed him in the press box instead of hitting him with demotion and publicly admitting there is nothing he could do to play, because they've entirely ruled it out.



The team also admitted he is injured. In your quest to believe the team always tells the truth, do you now decide they're lying about that? If they lied about that, how do you know they don't lie about other things you've chosen to believe?

The team has admitted he had an injury. Now they're going to try to get his contract cancelled via quibbling about severity? Their case looks weak as hell, and there isn't upside to it. They already muffed it in March, now they're compounding the damage by bolstering the argument that this isn't a player-friendly place.

You can also add Briere said a little while back he doesn't think he ever play again.

I can't wait to see what they have against hi to be honest. More interesting then following the team. If they have some weak ass shit then it will be such a bad look.

Either way this is going to sour players and agents for doing business with the 3 stooges going forward IMO.

Why are people pretending like they don't understand how injuries and players rights about injuries work? If this is what defense of the team requires, then they shouldn't be defended.

Briere said he was injured and that it kept him off the roster. They cannot compel him to play elsewhere if they deem him too injured for the NHL.

He very ell could have been rehabbing the last x amount of months. That didnt work now surgery.

Didn't Risto wait numerous months to get his surgery after rehab didnt help?

 

[renberg]

I think that could be flirting with a player strike-level crisis. Not joking. Two teams who stand to benefit from a player's contract getting nixed working together in some capacity, to kill a contract for not believing a player is as injured as he says? Guaranteed contracts are sacrosanct to the NHLPA, adding handy loopholes for teams to dodge them would not be accepted.

So, hopefully they have not done that

I don’t believe that the Flyers and the Preds would collude to sandbag RyJo but it would be silly of the Flyers to unilaterally decide to go down this route since it impacts both clubs. I’d like to think that Briere ran it by Trotz. If Trotz was against it, Briere would have been on spongey ground to go further.
Then again, Johansen has been a weasel in Columbus, Nashville, Colorado and now Philly. The rumor at the TDL was that Colorado’s room wanted him out; they were finished with him. He has a lot of enemies throughout the game.

 

[trostol]

Just like the Cutter issue...people are taking this way too personally

 

[deadhead]

The Flyers could very well be in the right here.

It’s just… in this really worth it? So desperate for a bit of cap space - a rebuilding team with no shot in hell at a decent playoff run?

To willingly put themselves in a position where other players might even further question Philadelphia as a destination… it’s just stupid imo.

This was such a foolish battle to choose to fight.

So $2.7M in cap space isn't worth the FO getting upset about?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I don't know if he was hurt, I do know the AHL demotion was not the issue the Flyers got upset about.
Because it was irrelevant to the team, they paid him either way and didn't raise a fuss.

The issue comes down to using the injury to block a buyout this summer.
That hurt the Flyers, reduced their ability to make trades or invoke using the LTIR until needed (allowing them to accumulate cap room for the TDL).
If they thought the injury was legitimate, I doubt anything happens, the cost of obtaining that 1st rd pick.

So you don't know if he was hurt, but also the Flyers know he's not hurt now and therefore all of this makes sense? I don't know how we get from A to B here. Either the man is hurt or he's not. If he is injured, that's part of the CBA. They would have no one to be angry at but themselves for banking their offseason plan on the assumption that they would be able to buy him out. That's what they can control. This is why I evaluate the process above all else.

Maybe he is making everything up. The only things I know are that we have none of the facts necessary to even debate it and I don't trust anyone involved here to tell the truth.

Well, I also know the people who think dancing at his wedding means he can play NHL hockey are dolts. Different issue.

 

[freakydallas13]

So $2.7M in cap space isn't worth the FO getting upset about?

Depends on if you believe the PoHo when he says he's trying to make Philadelphia an attractive place for players or not.

 

[ajgoal]

So $2.7M in cap space isn't worth the FO getting upset about?

A team in a rebuild should be looking to minimize dead cap in future years, rather than extend it via buyouts.

 

[deadhead]

Depends on if you believe the PoHo when he says he's trying to make Philadelphia an attractive place for players or not.

If Johansen is lying, doubt it will have any impact on players' opinion of the Flyers, any more than you'd decide an employer isn't worth working for b/c they caught an employee lying about being disabled on the job.