Post-Game Talk: Flightless birds destroy the lowly Canadiens

[Habs]

I am done for a while, this is simply no longer enjoyable

Sound like my wife after I lay the pipe and ask her how it was.

 

[bsl]

One caller sounded very distraught and said why aren't there fingers pointing at Hughes and Gorton at this point. MSL is what it is. He isn't going to change so it's up to management to make moved - e.g. make coaching change. Bring experience behind the bench... coaching experience.

NHL coaches are mostly useless. I’ve said this for years. Firing msl will make no difference. It’s just lack of talent on the team. Ridiculous thread here saying serious coaching problem. lol. I refuse to read it.

I think I said it enough... a new coach - that's my solution. If according to you no coach would make a difference with this team then why have one? Why some teams start playing better and some worse when coaches change? with the same players.

I completely utterly disagree with you on this.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

OR how about we try and actually draft some quality players and then actually develop them properly. I see other teams do it all the time. It's incredible watching good teams...draft mid to late first round and second round and somehow they just "get lucky" I guess with players hitting. Weird how that works.

I asked this question a while back but when was the last time we developed a player properly...someone answered Pacioretty and they weren't wrong...says a lot. Now of course people will say CC bit he developed in the US college program so..

Ideally we can make helpful trades and still keep our high picks

I think Suzuki was developed well, started as 3C in the NHL on a decent team.

It looks like Hutson was developed well too but we didn’t really have any say in it, and it would’ve been better to pair him with a legit RHD

Thinking about it now it’s a bit concerning how little time our young defense has spent in the AHL. Most look to be rushed, Struble and Xhekaj only played a handful of games and I don’t think Guhle or Hutson played any.

 

[Tyson]

NHL coaches are mostly useless. I’ve said this for years. Firing msl will make no difference. It’s just lack of talent on the team. Ridiculous thread here saying serious coaching problem. lol. I refuse to read it.


I completely utterly disagree with you on this.

You bring several good points that replacing MSL is probably not the solution but I say that he should never have been hired in the 1st place.
The team is arguably one of the least talented in the entire league and that's the biggest problem.

Chicago decided to rebuild and thought that trading a 21 year old 6'4 3rd overall pick was part of their rebuild should have been a red flag to every GM in the league regarding Kirby Dach.
Acquiring players like Newhook and Dach did not help this franchise in any way.

 

[OneSharpMarble]

Accountability and standards are something even “rebuilding teams” have to have. Giving the team a signal that there are minimum performance expectations is a good thing and will help with their professional development.

Primeau is an example of a “low hanging fruit”, something that would not be difficult to change.

I hope my perspective is clear enough for your understanding now — you can disagree but don’t call it a whine, because it ain’t.

The season shouldn’t be lost, but it is. Hughes sat on his hands while his coach did nothing and the results and performances and effort levels (predictably) didn’t change.

Now we have a team that will happily lose and collect their paycheque for the better part of a professional season. It’s literally a Losing Culture. They come to work knowing they will lose and no matter their effort, they will be paid and cozy and not even demoted or scratched. There are zero downsides to bad efforts = bad efforts are reinforced as part of the daily routine. Losing culture.

It’s funny you think a GM has to wait until the summer to make a minor roster move. You must’ve been Bergevin’s bravest soldier — moves are hard! Wait and be patient! We mustn’t mortgage the future!

With pivots like that you should think of following basketball instead of hockey.

Apparently now you want to send a message to the team and the way to do that is by trading the backup goalie. Not only that you think this should have been done a long time ago in the season. What makes you think the players are going to give a shit about a guy getting traded who barely plays? Wanna trade Pezzetta while you're at it to "send a message"?

Ok so now you are trying to make me a Bergevin supporter because you're desperate and you can't defend your whine, and yes that is what it is. The Habs lost a bad game and you're big mad, time to have a reactionary trade and lay down the law by punishing someone who had almost nothing to do with that game.

I don't think they have to wait until the offseason but they're probably doing that because they'll have more options in who they get for backup, I know it's hard for you to understand, you wanna run out there and get the first dude with two feet and a heartbeat, you're real picky. Trading Primeau is not about mortgaging the future, but getting some rando we have to get rid of yet again next season is not something a professional organization does.

 

[Habs Icing]

I guess reading comprehension isn’t your forte.

I said Dach is a huge reason why we’re where we are, not the only reason. Our D is a completely different issue and we were well aware of it coming into this season. It was the main reason I said we wouldn’t make the playoffs going into this year.

Dach’s poor performance on the other hand was not expected. That’s thrown us for a loop and it’s affected the forwards - especially guys like Newhook and Slaf - in a really bad way.

I see you've downgraded the biggest reason to a huge reason. Wait, that must be my reading comprehension.

Dach doesn't play on Newhook's line how is he affecting him?

Yes, Dach has been a disappointment but he is not the biggest or even a huge reason for the Habs' poor performance so far this season. Many other reasons are far more problematic than Dach's poor showing.

 

[ReHabs]

With pivots like that you should think of following basketball instead of hockey.

Apparently now you want to send a message to the team and the way to do that is by trading the backup goalie. Not only that you think this should have been done a long time ago in the season. What makes you think the players are going to give a shit about a guy getting traded who barely plays? Wanna trade Pezzetta while you're at it to "send a message"?

I never said it is the only way. I said it is low-hanging fruit.

Before we continue, please confirm you understand what is meant by the metaphor 'low-hanging fruit'. I'm not sure you get it.

 

[Habby4Life]

what’s funny is the kept Primeau who is junk while they had a reliable experienced backup in Allen.

Pri experiment should be over, just get a backup who is at the very least nhl caliber.

 

[OneSharpMarble]

I never said it is the only way. I said it is low-hanging fruit.

Before we continue, please confirm you understand what is meant by the metaphor 'low-hanging fruit'. I'm not sure you get it.

We've already moved past that, try and keep up. Yeah no shit it's easy to dump a poor performing backup, we could also fire the zamboni driver too. I get that you think moving the back up will just send massive shockwaves through the team but odds are the team will still have the massive problems that extend beyond the backup. Do you think Slaf is going to be like "oh shit new backup, better stop pretending I don't know how to play hockey!". Your solution will fix next to nothing and might cause problems.

 

[Habby4Life]

You bring several good points that replacing MSL is probably not the solution but I say that he should never have been hired in the 1st place.
The team is arguably one of the least talented in the entire league and that's the biggest problem.

Chicago decided to rebuild and thought that trading a 21 year old 6'4 3rd overall pick was part of their rebuild should have been a red flag to every GM in the league regarding Kirby Dach.
Acquiring players like Newhook and Dach did not help this franchise in any way.

One could argue acquiring Dach is now a setback. Don’t see anything to think he will be a 2c which now they have to go hunting for that all over again. And with his compete level he should not be in the top 6. I bet he is gone by the time his contract expires.

Newhook - Yawn!! As vanilla as the come!

I question there evaluation prowess regarding NHL players. Dach, Newhook, Barron, Primeau etc.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I see you've downgraded the biggest reason to a huge reason. Wait, that must be my reading comprehension.

Biggest - huge... either way. I'm not downgrading anything.

But it's not the only reason. We weren't going to be a good team with or without him returning to form. Most of us expected around 85 points and that's WITH Dach playing well.

Dach doesn't play on Newhook's line how is he affecting him?

Newhook's play improved over the past few weeks away from Dach. He wasn't rewarded for it but his play improved.

Let's see how he does with Dach going forward.

Yes, Dach has been a disappointment but he is not the biggest or even a huge reason for the Habs' poor performance so far this season. Many other reasons are far more problematic than Dach's poor showing.

He is the delta between expectations and performance. We weren't going to be great anyway... but we expected the team to improve. Dach and Hutson were the two biggest reasons why.

85 points was achievable but only with Dach coming back. Him returning as he has means we won't even meet those modest expectations. He's obvioulsy not the only problem, but he's the biggest issue we had this year. First line looks good. Bottom six looks good. D is as advertised. The 2nd line is way below where we thought they'd be.

 

[ReHabs]

We've already moved past that, try and keep up. Yeah no shit it's easy to dump a poor performing backup, we could also fire the zamboni driver too. I get that you think moving the back up will just send massive shockwaves through the team but odds are the team will still have the massive problems that extend beyond the backup. Do you think Slaf is going to be like "oh shit new backup, better stop pretending I don't know how to play hockey!". Your solution will fix next to nothing and might cause problems.

Seems like you understand what is meant by the phrase 'low-hanging fruit'.

So now do you understand I'm using the backup goalie as an example of why Kent Hughes is sitting on his hands? (Hence "warm hands". It is another turn of phrase with which you might not be familiar if you're not native English). If he's incapable or reluctant to even change the historically bad performing backup goalie, and he's not made any roster moves or staff moves or anything at all toward any other change, what else can we gather from this situation than the obvious: he has no solutions, so he's bunting it at base.

Time is an extremely valuable resource when taking entropy into account -- what we have in hand today can crumble and fall easier than it could be built upon. That is to say, we can lose what little we have more easily than we can build upon it. It's a physical law of nature. There are guardrails and safeguards in the NHL cartel to protect franchies from fitness tests but the fact remains what is commonly described as a losing culture *can be* more dangerous than anything else. Tottenham Hotspur, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Browns, Detroit Lions, Buffalo Sabres, Toronto Maple Leafs, etc. It becomes a curse.

If our GM is not proactive enough to do even the smallest roster move (they haven't even once scratched one of the bum players whose bummy play is like a bum contagion stinkin' up the ice every night) I think that portends bad things.

Do you think the above is actually fine and another 50-odd games of this will not contribute to the losing culture and that the slightly higher draft pick at the end of it will make up for the fact Slaf, Dach, Newhook, Barron, Struble, Primeau, and even Guhle have seemingly not improved one bit?

 

[Habby4Life]

Biggest - huge... either way. I'm not downgrading anything.

But it's not the only reason. We weren't going to be a good team with or without him returning to form. Most of us expected around 85 points and that's WITH Dach playing well.

Newhook's play improved over the past few weeks. He wasn't rewarded for it but his play improved.

Let's see how he does with Dach going forward.

He is the delta between expectations and performance. We weren't going to be great anyway... but we expected the team to improve. Dach and Hutson were the two biggest reasons why.

85 points was achievable but only with Dach coming back. Him returning as he has means we won't even meet those modest expectations. He's obvioulsy not the only problem, but he's the biggest issue we had this year. First line looks good. Bottom six looks good. D is as advertised. The 2nd line is way below where we thought they'd be.

Bottom six is below average and this summer should be completely overhauled.

2nd line is way below what some of you thought they would be. Some saw the 2nd line depth for what it has turned out to be. They need to find a 2c to play with PL and Demidov.

I do agree Dach sucking so bad has been a major setup. But he isn’t the only one, Newhook, Slaf have been far from impressive.

Gally has outplayed all three of those guys and that is a major concern. No knock on Gally, glad he is having a good year. If the other guys has half his heart and his competitiveness this team would be a heck of a lot more difficult to play against.

 

[OneSharpMarble]

Seems like you understand what is meant by the phrase 'low-hanging fruit'.

So now do you understand I'm using the backup goalie as an example of why Kent Hughes is sitting on his hands? (Hence "warm hands". It is another turn of phrase with which you might not be familiar if you're not native English). If he's incapable or reluctant to even change the historically bad performing backup goalie, and he's not made any roster moves or staff moves or anything at all toward any other change, what else can we gather from this situation than the obvious: he has no solutions, so he's bunting it at base.

Time is an extremely valuable resource when taking entropy into account -- what we have in hand today can crumble and fall easier than it could be built upon. That is to say, we can lose what little we have more easily than we can build upon it. It's a physical law of nature. There are guardrails and safeguards in the NHL cartel to protect franchies from fitness tests but the fact remains what is commonly described as a losing culture *can be* more dangerous than anything else. Tottenham Hotspur, Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Browns, Detroit Lions, Buffalo Sabres, Toronto Maple Leafs, etc. It becomes a curse.

If our GM is not proactive enough to do even the smallest roster move (they haven't even once scratched one of the bum players whose bummy play is like a bum contagion stinkin' up the ice every night) I think that portends bad things.

Do you think the above is actually fine and another 50-odd games of this will not contribute to the losing culture and that the slightly higher draft pick at the end of it will make up for the fact Slaf, Dach, Newhook, Barron, Struble, Primeau, and even Guhle have seemingly not improved one bit?

Once again you dance around everything, trying to be abstract instead of actually saying anything of worth. Your "warm hands" nonsense isn't as clever as you think it is, we get it.

You have failed to give any meaningful example of what impact trading a backup is going to have other than "it'll fix entropy!!!" Instead of running 50 different directions try and stay on topic.

First off do you understand the difference in available players mid season, trade deadline and offseason? If I tell you we will pay more now for a limited selection compared to the selection we will have in the offseason or maybe at the trade deadline do you understand that?

Obviously they plan on making a big splash this offseason, they said it themselves. With a lot of contracts coming off the books there is no doubt Hughes will go after a lot of UFA and trades. There is no reason to trade Primeau now because it changes nothing about the team.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Bottom six is below average and this summer should be completely overhauled.

They've played above expectations

The overhaul is coming. Tons of players on the way.

2nd line is way below what some of you thought they would be. Some saw the 2nd line depth for what it has turned out to be. They need to find a 2c to play with PL and Demidov.

Sure. But the team didn't expect it and neither did most people here.

Injuries and their effects are tough to predict. Look at Caufield last year. Couldn't score from mid ice. This year? Pacing for around 50.

I do agree Dach sucking so bad has been a major setup. But he isn’t the only one, Newhook, Slaf have been far from impressive.

Newhook played well away from Dach. Slaf got injured early on. He started really well and has dropped off since getting hurt.

Gally has outplayed all three of those guys and that is a major concern. No knock on Gally, glad he is having a good year. If the other guys has half his heart and his competitiveness this team would be a heck of a lot more difficult to play against.

Right... as I said, the third line has played well. So has the 4th. Anderson's bounced back. Heineman's been good. Evans has been good... The first has also been good.

The only real problem up front is the 2nd line.

 

[Habby4Life]

They've played above expectations

The overhaul is coming. Tons of players on the way.

Sure. But the team didn't expect it and neither did most people here.

Injuries and their effects are tough to predict. Look at Caufield last year. Couldn't score from mid ice. This year? Pacing for around 50.

Newhook played well away from Dach. Slaf got injured early on. He started really well and has dropped off since getting hurt.

Right... as I said, the third line has played well. So has the 4th. Anderson's bounced back. Heineman's been good. Evans has been good... The first has also been good.

The only real problem up front is the 2nd line.

Sorry, but that just isn’t the case. They are a one line team. Lines 2 thru 4 all are in need of serious improvement.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Sorry, but that just isn’t the case.

Sure it is. You have a problem with how Heineman's played? Evans? You just said Gallagher was good. Anderson has bounced back.

The bottom six has been just fine. And next year we'll see a lot of these guys replaced. Bye bye Dvorak, hello Owen Beck.

They are a one line team. Lines 2 thru 4 all are in need of serious improvement.

They are a one line team in terms of offense. Not having a 2nd has killed us.

 

[Habby4Life]

Sure it is. You have a problem with how Heineman's played? Evans? You just said Gallagher was good. Anderson has bounced back.

The bottom six has been just fine.

They are a one line team in terms of offense. Not having a 2nd has killed us.

No every line other than the first have issues.

The second line has no legit C. Yes, I’m happy with Hein and Evans but other than those two they need to overhaul the rest.

Newhook - Yawn, nothing special.
Gally - I said he has a good year, but he isn’t quick enough or big enough for the bottom six.
Armia - Junk
Andy - inconsistent and very average
Pezz - not legit everyday nhler
Dvo - Yuck.
Dach - useless, lazy, not a guy to be in bottom 6

They have a first line and the have pieces in Laine, Demi, Evans and Hein that’s it, the rest of the squad is garbage that should be replaced.

They need to overhaul the bottom six with guys that have size, can skate, and play with grit with a nasty steak. Evans and Hein can stay they rest should be gone.

This roster has more garbage pieces than it has keepers. Bottom six is ok for a crap junk team but garbage for a real playoff team.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No every line other than the first have issues.

The second line has no legit C. Yes, I’m happy with Hein and Evans but other than those two they need to overhaul the rest.

Newhook - Yawn, nothing special.
Gally - I said he has a good year, but he isn’t quick enough or big enough for the bottom six.
Armia - Junk
Andy - inconsistent and very average
Pezz - not legit everyday nhler
Dvo - Yuck.
Dach - useless, lazy, not a guy to be in bottom 6

They have a first line and the have pieces in Laine, Demi, Evans and Hein that’s it, the rest of the squad is garbage that should be replaced.

They need to overhaul the bottom six with guys that have size, can skate, and play with grit with a nasty steak. Evans and Hein can stay they rest should be gone.

This roster has more garbage pieces than it has keepers. Bottom six is ok for a crap junk team but garbage for a real playoff team.

We’re a team in transition. Everyone knows this. Dvo is keeping the seat warm for Beck. We’ve got RD and Mailloux and Demidov on the way….

The bottom six is playing fine. I have no issues with them. They are what they are. And almost none of those guys are going to be here in three years.

The team has played to expectations outside of that second line. That line has been a problem since day one. Primeau has also sucked.

 

[ReHabs]

Once again you dance around everything, trying to be abstract instead of actually saying anything of worth. Your "warm hands" nonsense isn't as clever as you think it is, we get it.

I’ve been as clear as I could possibly be — if you think warm hands as a euphemism for a do-nothing reactive GM is “nonsense” then I can’t help much more.

You have failed to give any meaningful example of what impact trading a backup is going to have other than "it'll fix entropy!!!" Instead of running 50 different directions try and stay on topic.

It’s part of the same overall thing: to help prevent a losing culture from taking hold.

First off do you understand the difference in available players mid season, trade deadline and offseason? If I tell you we will pay more now for a limited selection compared to the selection we will have in the offseason or maybe at the trade deadline do you understand that?

Waiving Primeau and calling up Dobes is free.

Obviously they plan on making a big splash this offseason, they said it themselves. With a lot of contracts coming off the books there is no doubt Hughes will go after a lot of UFA and trades. There is no reason to trade Primeau now because it changes nothing about the team.

Hopefully they do good things in the summer. I wanted the Laine trade so badly that I was ecstatic when it happened. That said, building a winner is much harder than losing and Hughes has not built anything remotely close to a winning roster yet. I’ll defer to them when they earn it. Seems fair.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Why so defensive of the league worst backup goalie? Moving on from him this season should be easy if a better option (literally anyone) comes along for free

 

[HabbyGuy]

Why so defensive of the league worst backup goalie? Moving on from him this season should be easy if a better option (literally anyone) comes along for free

Actually I don't think finding a competent backup NHL goalie is as simple as everyone thinks. There are a ton of teams in need of one.

 

[OneSharpMarble]

Waiving Primeau and calling up Dobes is free.

Ok and if Dobes is not ready or is just as bad? Does the goalie carousel start? Do we run out and get someone else and send him down? You want to bring in a rookie goalie to get shelled behind this dysfunctional team? Your panic moves would accomplish nothing.

Once again you're making moves for the sake of making moves when the season is lost and moving a backup goalie isnt going to stop the habs from getting blown out. When we have better trade/signing options for backup I have no doubt Primeau will be dumped.

 

[ReHabs]

Ok and if Dobes is not ready or is just as bad? Does the goalie carousel start? Do we run out and get someone else and send him down? You want to bring in a rookie goalie to get shelled behind this dysfunctional team? Your panic moves would accomplish nothing.

Once again you're making moves for the sake of making moves when the season is lost and moving a backup goalie isnt going to stop the habs from getting blown out. When we have better trade/signing options for backup I have no doubt Primeau will be dumped.

Making moves for the sake of getting rid of the worst goalie in modern Habs history and sending a message to the roster that performance matters is worthwhile. Sorry if you disagree Marc Bergevin.

 

[Habby4Life]

We’re a team in transition. Everyone knows this. Dvo is keeping the seat warm for Beck. We’ve got RD and Mailloux and Demidov on the way….

The bottom six is playing fine. I have no issues with them. They are what they are. And almost none of those guys are going to be here in three years.

The team has played to expectations outside of that second line. That line has been a problem since day one. Primeau has also sucked.

The team has certainly not played up to expectations, not a chance. You were predicting 85 pts, MGT was spewing "in the mix". They were out of the mix by the first week of November, lol. Mgt were trying to sell they would be playing meaningful games near the deadline, and that could not be farther from the truth. So far, this year has been a disapointment unless your on board with the tank.

Certainly not up to expectations, Dach, Slaf, Newhook, Struble, Math, Pri, and Roy. The bright spots have been Gally, Hein, Lane, and Evans. Great, but that is a symptom of the problem when these guys (except lane) are your bright spots, it means others who should be have sucked. And of course NS and CC carrying the team on their backs.

Hugo is going to have to supplement this squad with FAs and better trades because they are not going to just draft their way out of this mess. And when they do make such moves they better be more careful because the ones they have done so far (NHL guys) have been less than stellar.

Oh yeah, last but not least, hire real NHL coaches.