Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[I am toxic]

It is a shame that this thread will be closed*, as there is a shit ton to discuss.

One lesson that has been overlooked is that the (at the time) step-father contacted Hockey Canada the day of the alleged gang rape. This allowed Hockey Canada to engage all their rape culture enabling resources, including contacting their risk manager, their victim-smearing lawyers, and at least one of the accused rapists who then pressured the victim to end the police involvement. Lesson being, don't contact anyone but your own lawyer and the police. Which one first, I have yet to figure out, people in this thread could shed some light on the matter but it will be closed shortly, and prematurely.

Which leads to the next point that hasn't been fully discussed. I was no doubt mistaken earlier that the two protected witnesses would be players present yet not charged. The publication ban of their names was at the request of the prosecutor, and as @Yukon Joe pointed out, a publication ban is to protect the identity of the victim.

Since the sequence of events of how this investigation has played out appears to now have become part of the case, it seems far more likely that both the mother and (at the time) step-father would be witnesses, both having first-hand knowledge of the victim following the alleged gang rape so maybe such testimony is something the prosecutors may want to keep on the table.

I've already brought up Cal Foote's agent's behaviour, and there is lots more issues that should be addressed, including exactly who at Hockey Canada contacted the accused rapists to help them out.

*who am I kidding? This thread has been successfully derailed to a discussion about sports movies, best it had been shut down yesterday, instead of making a mockery of discussion about serious allegations of gang rape, institutional complicity, and police ineptitude if not worse.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

The two videos were to cover up the situation, not stop it.

I don’t disagree. I would just like to know exactly how it transpired before condemning the witnesses. Most rapes aren’t going to be like Jodi Foster in The Accused. It’s possible the witnesses were complicit. It’s also possible it didn’t dawn on the witnesses till it was too late. All we have is an extremely vague scenario at this point

 

[theVladiator]

by goal I was referring to the prime directive or the main evolutionary drive.
right now I would say all life shares the prime directive to propagate but did human evolution take a turn and we put raw total #'s aside, slow propagation rate to fit the change from hunter gatherer to farming.
In the times of hunter gatherer we had to reproduce as much and as often as possible due to the high attrition rates and short life spans.

There is no prime directive. Evolution is not a straight line, or a single line. Or even a line for that matter. It's a process.

In terms of the difference in evolutionary challenges between hunter/gatherer and farmer, I am not sure it's too relevant because due to fairly recent transition (10k years?), it's not likely to have significant evolutionary effect.

If by "propagation rate" you mean reproduction rate, I would not expect it to change much between hunters and farmers. I do not think length of gestation, or duration of female fertility changed, and there was no birth control. In terms of sex drive, I believe the effect is in opposite direction from what you think. I think we have biological mechanism that reduces sex drive in response to stress, so I'd expect the hunters/gatherers to have lower reproduction rate if anything (more precarious conditions). In general humans as species are low reproduction/high offspring survival rate species, with ton of resources required to rear an offspring. Hence reduction of sex drive in response to precarious conditions, as to not waste precious resources and concentrate on survival of existing life vs creating new.

 

[RR44]

Why are those masculine traits? Honestly "caring" is much more traditionally considered a feminine trait, stoicism is considered more masculine.

It's only contradictory if you live in a dichotomous world. Some traits that are traditionally masculine are toxic, such as the belief in gender superiority that has existed forever. Emotional detachment is a toxic trait and considered masculine. Hard love is considered a masculine thing to do but has consistently been shown to do more damage than good. Toxic masculinity is about the traditional traits that we now know to be toxic, not the ones that are positive.

A man who comes home from work to drive his kids to their hockey games, volunteers as a coach, buys them a pair of skates when the others are too small, tells them after a game how proud they are of the effort they put forth, consoles them after a tough loss in a league final, sits in the stands to cheer them on...those would not be considered as caring?

Toxic masculinity is a myth...and it's beyond the pale people like you demonize virtuous masculinity.

 

[Nakawick]

Whh should Makar or anyone else on the team not involved be punished? That is weird no?

 

[Yukon Joe]

*who am I kidding? This thread has been successfully derailed to a discussion about sports movies, best it had been shut down yesterday, instead of making a mockery of discussion about serious allegations of gang rape, institutional complicity, and police ineptitude if not worse.

Having participated at length, quite seriously, in this thread (and you even cited me) - once they announced it would be closed I figured I wasn't going to put any further effort in here and discussing sports movies was about all I was good for.

 

[SmytheKing]

A man who comes home from work to drive his kids to their hockey games, volunteers as a coach, buys them a pair of skates when the others are too small, tells them after a game how proud they are of the effort they put forth, consoles them after a tough loss in a league final, sits in the stands to cheer them on...those would not be considered as caring?

Toxic masculinity is a myth...and it's beyond the pale people like you demonize virtuous masculinity.

At this point it's laughable that you're still doing the "all the good masculine traits are the ones that everyone is saying are toxic" and ignoring that literally everyone has responded to you talking about the ones you're casually ignoring that frame the toxic argument.

It's honestly disappointing more than laughable. None so blind as those who refuse to see they say.

 

[RR44]

At this point it's laughable that you're still doing the "all the good masculine traits are the ones that everyone is saying are toxic" and ignoring that literally everyone has responded to you talking about the ones you're casually ignoring that frame the toxic argument.

It's honestly disappointing more than laughable. None so blind as those who refuse to see they say.

What is so disappointing about having an adult conversation that toxic masculinity is a myth? Clearly you are easily offended by this...probably best you stop commenting about a lie you want to be a truth.

 

[I am toxic]

There isn't any question that toxic masculinity exists, and contributes to rape culture:

The study, Understanding Sexual Aggression in UK Male University Students, examined both the psychological profiles of sexually violent male students and their self-reported rates of offending.
It identified a strong association between toxic masculinity and sexual violence, with those who reported committing offences also admitting to misogynistic views, such as believing that women who get drunk are to blame if they get raped, and having sadistic sexual fantasies about raping or torturing women.

Like intentionally getting someone drunk, and isolated, then slapping, spitting, or threatening to violate them with golf clubs while gang raping them. Sound familiar?

Why someone would deny its existence is beyond me*.

*I'm lying. I know exactly why people promulgate that shit.

 

[Melrose Munch]

A man who comes home from work to drive his kids to their hockey games, volunteers as a coach, buys them a pair of skates when the others are too small, tells them after a game how proud they are of the effort they put forth, consoles them after a tough loss in a league final, sits in the stands to cheer them on...those would not be considered as caring?

Toxic masculinity is a myth...and it's beyond the pale people like you demonize virtuous masculinity.

And this is not who we're talking about. We're talking about a crime.

 

[Lshap]

There isn't any question that toxic masculinity exists, and contributes to rape culture:



Like intentionally getting someone drunk, and isolated, then slapping, spitting, or threatening to violate them with golf clubs while gang raping them. Sound familiar?

Why someone would deny its existence is beyond me*.

*I'm lying. I know exactly why people promulgate that shit.

That has absolutely nothing to do with masculinity. What you described is sadism.

 

[stampedingviking]

My favourite film is Ford v Ferrari.

 

[Konnan511]

Thanks! That means you too!

I like to pass along recommendations from my library since so much ends up off peoples radar when at the mercy of what's on their streaming services. So many great movies practically buried.

I too have a Plex account. You don't find many Plex owners out in the wild lol.

 

[Fatass]

That has absolutely nothing to do with masculinity. What you described is sadism.

The five guys in this case will be tried for sexual assist. Likely they are guilty regardless of the court findings. But not too sure where the “sadism” comes from? Please explain.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

The five guys in this case will be tried for sexual assist. Likely they are guilty regardless of the court findings. But not too sure where the “sadism” comes from? Please explain.

Ribero and Oats high five lol
you said sexual assist instead of sexual assault, so the Ribero and Oats is a play off of that, Ribero since well obviously and Oats cuz of assists

 

[Fatass]

Ribero and Oats high five lol

I hear what you’re saying. Even if found not guilty this is some seriously sick behaviour. Not a fan of crossing swords. That’s just weird. Imo.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

I hear what you’re saying. Even if found not guilty this is some seriously sick behaviour. Not a fan of crossing swords. That’s just weird. Imo.

I hear ya, thats odd to me, the whole its not gay its bro'ing out thing doesn't make sense
but it was a joke since you said sexual assist lol

 

[Atoyot]

What is so disappointing about having an adult conversation that toxic masculinity is a myth? Clearly you are easily offended by this...probably best you stop commenting about a lie you want to be a truth.

Dude you're ignoring every argument and parroting the same thing over and over. This isn't an adult conversation it's you plugging your ears and saying "lalala I can't hear you".

 

[Seanaconda]

Yikes

I mean he could have been lured by a text for pizza like the other guy

That's a pretty near miss situation or whatever they use for traffic accident avoidance

 

[Apex Predator]

I mean he could have been lured by a text for pizza like the other guy

That's a pretty near miss situation or whatever they use for traffic accident avoidance

Was Makar in london at that time? I thought he was not in attendance or am I thinking of someone else?

 

[Deadly Dogma]

Dude you're ignoring every argument and parroting the same thing over and over. This isn't an adult conversation it's you plugging your ears and saying "lalala I can't hear you".

The thing is many of those toxic traits still exist, just rebranded.
When you see the mechanism behind racism etc, its easy to spot it, and the sad part is the worst offenders are the ones who use morality as a weapon

 

[Seanaconda]

Was Makar in london at that time? I thought he was not in attendance or am I thinking f someone else?

I'm not sure tbh but it is lucky for him to not have this shadow over him. If he has a clear alibi like not being anywhere close to there that is super fortunate for him

People are upset about his choice of words but he was lucky

 

[Apex Predator]

I'm not sure tbh but it is lucky for him to not have this shadow over him. If he has a clear alibi like not being anywhere close to there that is super fortunate for him

People are upset about his choice of words but he was lucky

his choice of words are not ideal I agree with that.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Was Makar in london at that time? I thought he was not in attendance or am I thinking of someone else?

I don't think any of the NCAA guys like Makar were in the area at the time.

All CHL players.

 

[BB79]

I mean he could have been lured by a text for pizza like the other guy

That's a pretty near miss situation or whatever they use for traffic accident avoidance

Not sure why she's so hung up on his wording of saying "fortunate bounce", he was just saying luckily he wasn't coincidentally in the room or hanging out with those guys but he was probably better off not saying anything to avoid the pitchfork and torch mob over every little detail like we get on here