Five members from Canada’s 2018 world junior team (Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote and Formenton) told to surrender to police, facing sexual assault charges

[SmytheKing]

It's not the Flames fault that people feel the need to virtue signal in a thread on social media before they have all, or any, of the facts.

Y'all love to say "virtue signaling" don't you?

Anyway, we have a BUNCH of the facts. The only issue at play is whether she consented to what they did. There's been, so far, no disagreement of the events, only on whether they agree. So...seems YOU might not have any of the facts, but many of us have seen a lot of them.

 

[AnInjuredJasonZucker]

The police didn't call the Flames to ask permission to charge him. A memo wasn't sent to them

Funny to see some people so disgusted with the Flames org when infact the truly disgusting behaviour is the people who are making a big deal of this and inserting themselves into like it was a direct slight on them and they are owed something

As if professional sports aren't wholly reliant on para-social relationships.

"...when infact (sic) the truly disgusting behaviour..." is sexual assault.

But yeah, go on about the real monsters who said mean things about a billion dollar company on the internet.

 

[93LEAFS]

I agree.

Hazing, racism, violence, and sexual abuse has historically been ingrained in hockey culture.

Not a nice thing to say but it’s true and it must be stamped out.

I don't really know about that. The private catholic school in Toronto that probably produces more CHL players than any other school had a pretty noteworthy hazing incident that resulted in criminal convictions about 5 years back, and the kids were 14 and 15. It involved the football team, and not the hockey team. If you go into the school's arena there is a huge wall of guys who went there who made the NHL, and the dressing rooms are named after historic alum from when the school had an affiliation with the Leafs.

 

[Moon Man]

2nd ex-Chicago Blackhawks player accuses former coach of sexual assault - National | Globalnews.ca

The player was inspired to come forward after Kyle Beach sued the Chicago Blackhawks in 2021 over similar allegations against then-video coach Brad Aldrich.

globalnews.ca

Nothing to do with Perry.

Just absolutely crazy. In a horror show kind of way.
Thanks for letting me know.

Blackhawks video coach Brad Aldrich sexually assaulted two team members. When the Blackhawks found out they didn't report it to police. They did fire Aldrich, but gave him a good reference which allowed him to get a college hockey job where he promptly abused more people.

We still don't exactly know what happened with perry. I mean Perry obviously did something, but it might be that given that past history the Blackhawks are a little more "zero tolerance" than other franchises.

Thanks for letting me know.
Yeah, Perry's seems so much less bad than this and the 5 players.

 

[Ezekial]

I went to an all boys Catholic high school too, I'd call the environment among students "toxic"

 

[Moon Man]

Well, I didn't want to get specific about it because I know that these subjects always have a lot of mod warnings. Mainly, just wanted to talk about the hockey aspects, while giving sympathy to the people involved.

Others have mentioned some of the incidents involving the Blackhawks.

Hey, no worries. Yeah, others here are explaining it. I had no idea.

 

[North Cole]

I agree.

First, Dube has not been convicted of anything and still deserves a presumption of innocence from all.

Second, it isn't up to the Flames to do the job of the London police. Knowing what they know now, I'm sure they would've presented it differently. At the time, they released information on their employee based on what he told them.

Third (and this one is tongue-in-cheek), if I knew I was about to be charged with a crime, it would probably have a pretty major effect on my mental health.

It's not the Flames fault that people feel the need to virtue signal in a thread on social media before they have all, or any, of the facts.

The facts are in 2022 Kylington goes on leave for undisclosed reasons. Later he shares his own struggles in an interview.

Rather than take the same action, the Flames decide to publicize specifically that it's mental health issue. Unless your opinion is that the Flames had no idea why Kylington was going on leave, I have no idea why the two mental health leaves would be handled so different in the public.

Given that the next four leaves that all came out right after were boilerplate, it's not virtue signaling to say the Flames look extremely f***ing stupid for opening up that can of worms when they didn't need to. It's ironic how much cloak and dagger is used when discussing "upper" and "lower" body injuries only for them to go and step in it on something like this.

 

[Slats432]

Is there a vague sense of misogeny around the world of hockey?

It isn't that vague. I think it is more pervasive.

 

[Chainshot]

What options were open to teams prior to these guys being charged with anything? I can't imagine teams can just cut guys because of allegations without charges.

Nashville walked away from Foote right after acquiring him in trade. It's possible they either found out and decided to not tender or they knew and were already doing the non-tender as a favor for Tampa who jettisoned all three members of the 2018 team who were on their roster or in their pipeline.

 

[belair]

The police didn't call the Flames to ask permission to charge him. A memo wasn't sent to them

Funny to see some people so disgusted with the Flames org when infact the truly disgusting behaviour is the people who are making a big deal of this and inserting themselves into like it was a direct slight on them and they are owed something

To be fair though, it wasn't difficult for them to put two and two together.

I'd imagine Dube and his agent would have to do some pretty thorough convincing for the Flames to allow a roster player to walk away from the team in the middle of a playoff push. Considering that he was one of the few players in the league on that Junior team in question, it wasn't completely unlikely this might've played a small part in him asking for leave. If I'm Calgary, I'm just releasing it as a leave of absence. No reason required.

 

[El Travo]

No, but it's a matter of teaching them (and all young men) what consent *is*.

Consent *is* the expression of a person fully willing and desiring to engage in what ever acts with you.

Consent *is not* a barrier to be overcome between you and the sex you want.

Somewhere along the way the message is getting lost and it's resulted in people that think consent is a box to be checked on the path to sex, rather than a state of genuine willingness and desire- and the result is them working hard to check that box- whining, wheedling, pressuring, gaslighting, "seducing", coercing, pressuring, and thinking that it's all ok as long as the box gets checked- but it's not.

This is all very true. Too many people only hear what they want to hear, so I don't know if the message is getting lost, or if people are just ignoring said message because it means they won't get what they want. The fact that they felt the need to get a video recording of them "obtaining" consent shows me that they knew what they were doing was wrong, and thought they found a loophole to cover their asses.

 

[Bounces R Way]

There was lots of talk that the whole investigation was coming to an end soon. The whole hockey world knew that Dube was a one of the 8 players who gave very vague statements in the beginning.. so the Flames should have known better than to release their statement and linking Dube's absence to mental illness. Those of you defendng the Flames in this case should understand why so many people are angry with the Flames as well as Dube. Mental illness awareness has actually come a long way in the last few years and by linking this whole case with mental illness.. it just gives it a really bad name and may even set back the progress that has been made the last several years.

Well that's the thing with mental health. You don't get to validate struggling with stuff like video game addiction or OCD and invalidate facing criminal charges and their likely consequences for SA. That's just not how it works. It's an intentionally broad concept because it needs to be.

People who commit sexual assault are typically not mentally well. In fact they are quite often suffering from mental illness. If you really think a two sentence tweet about granting a bit hockey player leave from the team is going to meaningfully set back progress society is making on mental health I would suggest you need to step outside your bubble for a second. Nobody other than hardcore hockey fans could pick this guy out of a lineup.

Even if Dube mentioned to the Flames that he was suffering from mental illness or lying about it, there is no real reason for the Flames to include this in their statement knowing VERY WELL that Dube was linked to this whole scandal. The Flames should have just kept it very simple like the other teams and not even mention 'mental illness' in their statement. (And if the Flames were to use 'mental illness' as a reason for Dube's leave, then they should have done their due dilligence to make sure it was due to other reasons not related to this rape case). I mean.. some people were feeling bad for Dube and giving him sympathy and well wishes when the Flames first released that statement... like how twisted is that??

They didn't mention 'mental illness' in their statement. The statement said that Dube had been granted a LOA to attend to his mental health and that he is under the care of health professionals. That's it. Whether they knew or didn't know he was about to face criminal charges doesn't make a lot of difference. He asked for a LOA related to his mental health and was granted one, that's the pertinent information they are communicating in that post.

 

[llwyd]

I'm not hugely vengeful: especially the US justice and prison system is totally horrifying and primitive for a liberal Nordic person. You have even semi-public bloody executions, fgs. And the due process is very essential, even if often pretty skewed and even ugly in sexual violence cases. Rape and sexual assault are among the safest crimes: so few cases ever end up in court and even many of those result in non guilty verdicts as there is by nature often reasonable doubt. And so often the trial itself is a second assault or rape for the victim.

But in any case, the facts here seem pretty damning indeed. Should the case be proven (which is not certain at all) I would have no interest in destroying their lifes or even careers but in genuinely rehabilitating them. Redemption is always possible.

 

[Ezekial]

Well that's the thing with mental health. You don't get to validate struggling with stuff like video game addiction or OCD and invalidate facing criminal charges and their likely consequences for SA. That's just not how it works. It's an intentionally broad concept because it needs to be.

People who commit sexual assault are typically not mentally well. In fact they are quite often suffering from mental illness. If you really think a two sentence tweet about granting a bit hockey player is going to meaningfully set back progress society is making on mental health I would suggest you need to step outside your bubble for a second. Nobody other than hardcore hockey fans could pick this guy out of a lineup.



They didn't mention 'mental illness' in their statement. The statement said that Dube had been granted a LOA to attend to his mental health and that he is under the care of health professionals. That's it. Whether they knew or didn't know he was about to face criminal charges doesn't make a lot of difference. He asked for a LOA related to his mental health and was granted one, that's the pertinent information they are communicating in that post.

Doesn't take back that a lot of people wishing him well wouldn't have had they known what they were supporting him for.

 

[TrufleShufle]

I find it very hard to have any thoughts on this. This thread is full of speculation and I don't think anyone does have actual total knowledge of what happened.

Does anyone know to what extent the public will be allowed to know about facts and statements from the woman and the players? Will all details be made public in the case of trials?

If you aren't making up stories either for or against a topic very little people actually know anything about and defending it to the death, what are you doing on the internet?

 

[Frank Drebin]

Doesn't take back that a lot of people wishing him well wouldn't have had they known what they were supporting him for.

A lot of people have mental health issues due to guilty consciences from things they've done before. I guess we need to ask why they're suffering before we offer our thoughts and prayers from now on.

 

[TrufleShufle]

I went to an all boys Catholic high school too, I'd call the environment among students "toxic"

My high school was just a public school and the environment among students AND staff was considered very toxic. Oddly enough nobody had any idea until a couple years later when they did renovations and found asbestos.

 

[SENATOR]

Players participated in the paid for prostitute bukkake. Nothing new here in the world of entertainment. They will never get charged or prosecuted.

​

I do not understand these standards. This shit happens in Las Vegas thousands of times every night!

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Players participated in the paid for prostitute bukkake. Nothing new here in the world of entertainment. They will never get charged or prosecuted.

​

I do not understand these standards. This shit happens in Las Vegas thousands of times every night!

I'm curious which opinions lost out to this one.

 

[archangel2]

So you're saying when a player takes a leave for personal/mental issues it is up to the team to determine whether the source of that mental stress is worthy in the public eye?

Direct your ire at Dube, not the flames

nope.

IT appears everyone on the hockey world knew the names for awhile. Dube was part of a team that was in the news nearly everyday and we were getting told something was going down,

Seriously if the Flames had no idea what was going? They are in the running for the keystone cops award of the year. The moment Dube was given his leave. We have the first name and posters asked when does the next domino fall.

There is toooooo much evidence that the names were known in hockey circles for the Flames to play dumb

 

[Bounces R Way]

Doesn't take back that a lot of people wishing him well wouldn't have had they known what they were supporting him for.

Some misplaced thoughts and prayers then. Spilt milk. Actually not even spilt milk because spilt milk is tangible. A meaningful and quantifiable loss.

Maybe they can all send the Flames a bill for the candles used in their midnight vigil for Dube. Or they can reexamine their attitudes in light of new information, something that happens fairly regularly.

 

[GeoRox89]

Players participated in the paid for prostitute bukkake. Nothing new here in the world of entertainment. They will never get charged or prosecuted.

​

I do not understand these standards. This shit happens in Las Vegas thousands of times every night!

Don’t think you can argue with logic like this. Not because this is correct but because it sounds so impervious to logic and reason that I actually think it’s not even possible

 

[BE Friend]

Remember the internet is forever.
One day these guys will start a family and might have a daughter or two. Gonna be an interesting dinner table discussion on surfing the internet and daddies wikipedia page. AWKWARD,
It could very well be 5 not guilty's for crimes the crown say happened. The facts don't look good for the public court however. Needing a videotaped "consent" from an inebriated girl is never a strong character ref.
Hush money worked until it didn't. Can't be used now.

 

[MikeK]

There is no way the Flames didn't know. Come on now. This has gone way off the deep end. The NHL is a tight community with a lot of internal chatter. I'm usually an opened minded person willing to see every possible angle but in this situation there is no damn way they were as oblivious to what was going on involving one of their own as they're claiming to be. Just ridiculous.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

The fact that this thread is reaching all-time interactions/views makes me feel like this article:

New Children's Hospital Filled To Capacity

ATLANTA—When Andrew Nash decided to abandon a successful career in land development to pursue his lifelong dream of owning his own children’s hospital, he hoped the venture would be successful.

www.theonion.com