First Impressions of St. Louis

[OverTheCap]

I don't really see how labeling posters as "pessimists" or "negative" adds to the discussion. It happens frequently on here and it doesn't do anything to address the argument at hand.

 

[Thirty One]

Then we should waited till he hit free agency.

This scenario unfortunately leaves the team short one elite player for two playoff runs.

 

[haveandare]

But those two season of success could lead to more seasons of success. If you surround the players on the team with a better player doesn't that mean the team will be better?

TB is harping on the draft pick compensation in the trade and using logic that a Stanley Cup is the only barometer of success.

I brought up some points yesterday that I'm sure TB missed in the flow of the conversation so I'll bring some of them up again, as I think they are still relevant to the current conversation.

St. Louis is signed through next season. This isn't a rental for just THIS season.

The Rangers are 8-3 since the trade. If we are discussing the team being "win now" shouldn't the fact that the team is winning come into the discussion...at some point?

No guaranteed the draft picks will turn into anything. Odds are the draft picks won't turn into anything.

Thomas Vanek (who is better than Callahan) was traded for a marginal prospect and a 2nd round pick. It's not like teams were falling over themselves for Callahan.

Odds are St. Louis will start producing. Do you think he forgot how to score since being traded?

He was brought here for a high price but the price was fair value. He has a year left on his contract.

I've seen you say the Rangers prospect pool is pretty thin (It isn't as some of us have pointed out but whatever) so it stands to reason whoever the Rangers would've picked in the draft would be taken with a grain of salt by you.

Will the experience of playoff games help players like McD, Miller, Stepan, Nash, Zuccerello, Brassard, Kreider, etc and thus help the future of the team? Is there value to the Rangers in that experience?

But, didn't you hear? If they don't win the cup the trade is a failure.

 

[Thirty One]

I don't really see how labeling posters as "pessimists" or "negative" adds to the discussion. It happens frequently on here and it doesn't do anything to address the argument at hand.

#fanboysfightingback

 

[aufheben]

This scenario unfortunately leaves the team short one elite player for two playoff runs.

I could live with that.

 

[Jersey Girl]

A quick glance of the CBA reveals that this doesn't require the Lightning to trade him.

A quick glance of the transactions reveals that they did.

 

[Thirty One]

A quick glance of the transactions reveals that they did.

The Lightning did trade St. Louis to the Rangers. I don't dispute this fact.

 

[aufheben]

The Lightning didn't technically have to trade him, but it may have caused problems for them to keep a player who openly didn't want to be there. When you consider that he not only wanted out, but would only go to one team, we got hosed in that trade. Yzerman made the smart move.

 

[Jersey Girl]

The Lightning did trade St. Louis to the Rangers. I don't dispute this fact.

There you go - St Louis demanded a trade to the Rangers and received one. We finally agree on something.

 

[Son of Steinbrenner]

I could live with that.

I'm sure you can and I'm sure most of us could. Posters on both sides of the debate. However, what the Rangers gave up wouldn't help the team get any closer to a Cup in the short term.

We can pretend that the window isn't closing on the team. The fact is our goalie is in the prime of his career and the team on paper is improved. We don't get extra credit for having draft picks, draft picks aren't tangible assets. More often then not a draft pick doesn't turn into a tangible asset. St. Louis is a tangible asset that can improve the team and help the development of the players on the roster and perhaps in the system.

I'll use Jagr playing with Dubinsky as an example. It didn't hurt Dubi to play with Jagr. It helped his development, much like St. Louis SHOULD help Stepan development. I understand nothing is guaranteed but draft picks aren't guaranteed either.

I personally think using a Stanley Cup as the ONLY barometer of success is unfair.

 

[Thirty One]

The Lightning didn't technically have to trade him, but it may have caused problems for them to keep a player who openly didn't want to be there. When you consider that he not only wanted out, but would only go to one team, we got hosed in that trade. Yzerman made the smart move.

He asked for a trade to the Rangers in 2009 as well. They didn't trade him and he was the NHL's third leading scorer since that point. So I don't agree about just how toxic it would be.

The price would have likely gone down in the summer, but again, that's one less playoff run.

 

[Jersey Girl]

He asked for a trade to the Rangers in 2009 as well. They didn't trade him and he was the NHL's third leading scorer since that point. So I don't agree about just how toxic it would be.

That was before St Louis was originally left off the Canadian Olympic team, which seems to have changed St Louis significantly.

 

[aufheben]

I'm sure you can and I'm sure most of us could. Posters on both sides of the debate. However, what the Rangers gave up wouldn't help the team get any closer to a Cup in the short term.

We can pretend that the window isn't closing on the team. The fact is our goalie is in the prime of his career and the team on paper is improved. We don't get extra credit for having draft picks, draft picks aren't tangible assets. More often then not a draft pick doesn't turn into a tangible asset. St. Louis is a tangible asset that can improve the team and help the development of the players on the roster and perhaps in the system.

I'll use Jagr playing with Dubinsky as an example. It didn't hurt Dubi to play with Jagr. It helped his development, much like St. Louis SHOULD help Stepan development. I understand nothing is guaranteed but draft picks aren't guaranteed either.

I personally think using a Stanley Cup as the ONLY barometer of success is unfair.

The only guarantees with draft picks is if you don't have any, your chance of getting a player is 0%. I would totally give Sather credit for getting assets in return for Callahan. MSL is a win now move added to a good but not great team.

This really doesn't sit well with me that draft picks are expendable because they're not guarantees. Reminds me of the Maple Leafs or something.

 

[Thirty One]

How can you accept the uncertainty of draft picks while declaring the St. Louis trade a failing barring any Cups, though?

Seems a double standard to me.

 

[aufheben]

I don't think it's a "fail". I think we got hosed value wise.

 

[Thirty One]

I don't think it's a "fail". I think we got hosed value wise.

OK, but the post you responded to was SoS responding to True Blue claiming just that repeatedly.

And I'm not sure I'm picking up the difference of between getting hosed and failing anyways. Do you think the Rangers got hosed if they win a Cup?

 

[aufheben]

I will still think that Yzerman got the better of us value wise, yes, even if we win a Cup.

 

[Jersey Girl]

I will still think that Yzerman got the better of us value wise, yes, even if we win a Cup.

'If we win the Cup' is such an incredible leap of faith it's hard to imagine anyone is even talking about that as a 'what if'.

 

[aufheben]

'If we win the Cup' is such an incredible leap of faith it's hard to imagine anyone is even talking about that as a 'what if'.

I know, but just for the sake of argument. Even if they win the Cup this year, who the **** do they give it to? Haha, we have no captain FFS.

 

[OverTheCap]

The acquisition of St. Louis is intended to put us over the top. Sather said as much in his press conference: "the guy that’s coming in helps us advance farther than we expected to this year.... hopefully this is going to put us over the edge." Just looking at what the organization is hoping to accomplish with the addition of MSL without even taking into consideration what we had to give up, I'd say that anything less than a Finals appearance is a disappointment.

And that's the second "over the top" trade Sather has made in a span of less than 2 years, Nash was the first. The one and dones in the playoffs are not going to cut it anymore. The ECF run has been the pinnacle of success so far - Nash and St. Louis were acquired in large part to push the Rangers to a level beyond that.

 

[Jersey Girl]

I know, but just for the sake of argument. Even if they win the Cup this year, who the **** do they give it to? Haha, we have no captain FFS.

I nominate you! Heck, you have almost as many points as St Louis!

I kid, I kid...

 

[Thirty One]

I know, but just for the sake of argument. Even if they win the Cup this year, who the **** do they give it to? Haha, we have no captain FFS.

Carcillo

 

[Pizza]

Actually it was Yzerman and the Lightning, not Sather, who was over a barrel here.

Sather had the option of trading Callahan to any team in the league, or keeping him (and the draft picks!) as a rental. Yzerman had to trade St Louis, and per St Louis it had to be to the Rangers. All Yzerman could do was make his best deal. Sather held all the cards here.

You make a good point here. But it's interesting. I kept seeing on these boards and from the commentators that the idea of losing Cally w/o getting a return would be a total total waste. So now this idea that we should have just kept him as rental is gaining more traction.

Ok.

This really sounds like a no win. Especially when the guy you thought was your guy....maybe...really wasn't.

 

[RGY]

All 3 alternates go and receive the cup

 

[Jersey Girl]

You make a good point here. But it's interesting. I kept seeing on these boards and from the commentators that the idea of losing Cally w/o getting a return would be a total total waste. So now this idea that we should have just kept him as rental is gaining more traction.

Ok.

This really sounds like a no win. Especially when the guy you thought was your guy....really wasn't.

Yeah, before the trade there were a few guys on NHL Network Radio advocating this.

Sather may have gotten killed for it, especially from those of us who wanted to parlay Callahan into younger assets, but in retrospect it's turning out to be a potentially much better move than the trade Sather wound up making.

I was among those who was unhappy with Callahan's effort this year compared to prior years (and this year's Olympics), as it looked like he was just trying not to get hurt. I don't think anyone in Tampa Bay is unhappy with him, however.