Fire Ken Holland: 2022-2023 edition

[McVespa99]

Yeah, I think it was a moment for Holland to play hardball and likely should have. Would’ve been a signal to everyone, you can’t cash in on just a single good year here. The team is more important.

Sorry but as per my original post how exactly was he supposed to play hardball? The player had Arb rights. Choices were sign him about 3 mill or let him walk. Period

 

[Sra1974]

Sorry but as per my original post how exactly was he supposed to play hardball? The player had Arb rights. Choices were sign him about 3 mill or let him walk. Period

I explain my thoughts on that a few posts back. Arb rights are player leverage for sure, but the GM can still be blunt and frank about how the team views things.

 

[McVespa99]

I explain my thoughts on that a few posts back. Arb rights are player leverage for sure, but the GM can still be blunt and frank about how the team views things.

I can say my Aunt is my Uncle too but so what? He could go to the agent and say..."your player is not good enough yet to make that much", to which the agent responds..."we disagree. We will go to arbitration".

 

[Sra1974]

I can say my Aunt is my Uncle too but so what? He could go to the agent and say..."your player is not good enough yet to make that much", to which the agent responds..."we disagree. We will go to arbitration".

Make it clear to the player and agent if the dollar is too high we will decline, and you will be a UFA. You will be leaving a chance to play on a team building towards the cup and trying to sign with Teams mid summer when there’s not much cap room out there. So lets not go there, here’s a number that avoids that.

 

[McVespa99]

Make it clear to the player and agent if the dollar is too high we will decline, and you will be a UFA. You will be leaving a chance to play on a team building towards the cup and trying to sign with Teams mid summer when there’s not much cap room out there. So lets not go there, here’s a number that avoids that.

Good luck with that. lol
How many guys that score 20 goals and play in the top 6 do you see making less than 3 mill? Not including guys on their elc obviously. Of course there are some but it wouldn't be the norm.
Anyway you are entitled to your opinion. It is my opinion that Holland did the right thing at the time. The real problem is Yams did not replicate that production the next year.

 

[Kanedogg]

This team is not as good as the one last year plain and simple. Way too much money for multi year contracts to players like Kassian, Yamamoto, Ceci, Nurse, Campbell, Kane etc.

Holland has been awful at cap management. The funny thing is that was a massive knock on him from his time in Detroit so we cannot be surprised.

 

[Sra1974]

Good luck with that. lol
How many guys that score 20 goals and play in the top 6 do you see making less than 3 mill? Not including guys on their elc obviously. Of course there are some but it wouldn't be the norm.
Anyway you are entitled to your opinion. It is my opinion that Holland did the right thing at the time. The real problem is Yams did not replicate that production the next year.

Fair enough, the shooting percentage might have been the warning sign but I do see your point. I’m not saying it was easy, or even that it would’ve worked, I just see too little evidence of Holland being a good negotiator and I think that’s contributing to some issues on the team.

 

[McDoused]

I love this thread.

It's good to know that after Yamamoto scored 20 goals that the only option was to tell him how it is and let him walk.

Or you know, see how he does and dump him for nothing if he fails... which is what Holland did.

 

[Sra1974]

I love this thread.

It's good to know that after Yamamoto scored 20 goals that the only option was to tell him how it is and let him walk.

Or you know, see how he does and dump him for nothing if he fails... which is what Holland did.

I’m sorry, are we not allowed to discuss some alternative paths to the one the team ended on and potential learning moving forward or do we just accept there just simply nothing else that could’ve been done?

 

[McVespa99]

Fair enough, the shooting percentage might have been the warning sign but I do see your point. I’m not saying it was easy, or even that it would’ve worked, I just see too little evidence of Holland being a good negotiator and I think that’s contributing to some issues on the team.

That is a general problem in the Nhl now. Unless you are the GM in a city with a team everyone wants to play for you have zero leverage. Look at the Marner, Matthews, Nylander deals in TO, they all got badly overpaid when they signed. Almost every good player gets paid waaaay too much now. The agents know there are more teams now and if team A doesnt want to pay what they want they just ask for a trade and team B will pay what they want. Not for 4th liners obviously but certainly most of the skill guys. Its a trend I dont see changing. Back in the day players had a great deal of loyalty to their team usually to the detriment of their wallet. Now players seem much more likely to move if they are not in a perfect situation

 

[Beerfish]

I love this thread.

It's good to know that after Yamamoto scored 20 goals that the only option was to tell him how it is and let him walk.

Or you know, see how he does and dump him for nothing if he fails... which is what Holland did.

He did not dump him for nothing. We just had another semi cap dump of two players in this league and the team got a 7th rounder out of it.

Anyone could see that his lofty 20 goals was him playing on the top two lines all the time. When moved off those lines he was a total non entity. His career was the same every year. A few small hot streaks and LONG periods of doing absolutely nothing.

The object of the game is to sign good players, keep them and play out the term of their deal.

Holland is always giving out extra years and we have almost instant (within a year) buyers remorse.

(Thus me railing against him needlessly handing Ryan a two year deal when it should have been a Janmark like one year deal or you can walk.)

 

[Mr Positive]

That is a general problem in the Nhl now. Unless you are the GM in a city with a team everyone wants to play for you have zero leverage. Look at the Marner, Matthews, Nylander deals in TO, they all got badly overpaid when they signed. Almost every good player gets paid waaaay too much now. The agents know there are more teams now and if team A doesnt want to pay what they want they just ask for a trade and team B will pay what they want. Not for 4th liners obviously but certainly most of the skill guys. Its a trend I dont see changing. Back in the day players had a great deal of loyalty to their team usually to the detriment of their wallet. Now players seem much more likely to move if they are not in a perfect situation

I don't agree that much. Players do seem to get overpaid, but the cap is rising so maybe it just looks that way. We should expect salaries to go up.

As for the changing locations, that happens to all players. Tampa is very desirable and they bleed players all the time. Those players are chasing dollars. I would say that's a good thing, if we view that secondary function of the cap as good: that talent gets spread out in the league.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I love this thread.

It's good to know that after Yamamoto scored 20 goals that the only option was to tell him how it is and let him walk.

Or you know, see how he does and dump him for nothing if he fails... which is what Holland did.

Didn't dump him for nothing, we lost Kostin in process because of it.

He did not dump him for nothing. We just had another semi cap dump of two players in this league and the team got a 7th rounder out of it.

Anyone could see that his lofty 20 goals was him playing on the top two lines all the time. When moved off those lines he was a total non entity. His career was the same every year. A few small hot streaks and LONG periods of doing absolutely nothing.

The object of the game is to sign good players, keep them and play out the term of their deal.

Holland is always giving out extra years and we have almost instant (within a year) buyers remorse.

(Thus me railing against him needlessly handing Ryan a two year deal when it should have been a Janmark like one year deal or you can walk.)

Yep. Horrible asset management so far this offseason. Looks like yet another year upcoming where out bottomxix and depth is abysmal and we're loading up on the cheap fill. Meanwhile losing several players outright. Still looks like goalie file won't be addressed either.

 

[McDoused]

I’m sorry, are we not allowed to discuss some alternative paths to the one the team ended on and potential learning moving forward or do we just accept there just simply nothing else that could’ve been done?

Sure go back a year and find me your posts where you specifically called out Holland for signing a 20 goal scorer instead of letting him go for nothing. Either that or figure out how to build a time machine because the vast majority of fans were happy with the deal at the time.

 

[McDoused]

He did not dump him for nothing. We just had another semi cap dump of two players in this league and the team got a 7th rounder out of it.

Anyone could see that his lofty 20 goals was him playing on the top two lines all the time. When moved off those lines he was a total non entity. His career was the same every year. A few small hot streaks and LONG periods of doing absolutely nothing.

The object of the game is to sign good players, keep them and play out the term of their deal.

Holland is always giving out extra years and we have almost instant (within a year) buyers remorse.

(Thus me railing against him needlessly handing Ryan a two year deal when it should have been a Janmark like one year deal or you can walk.)

Sorry what assets did we have to give up in order to dump Yamamoto or JP? Holland was able to get rid of them without costing the team a damn thing.

It's good to know you can call out "how useless" Yamamoto is now that's its revisionist history.

How is giving Ryan an extra year a bad thing? We can just bury him in the minors if he isnt performing. Let's just pile on Holland for this massive mistake that will cost this team a champion. SMH.

 

[Kanedogg]

Sorry what assets did we have to give up in order to dump Yamamoto or JP? Holland was able to get rid of them without costing the team a damn thing.

It's good to know you can call out "how useless" Yamamoto is now that's its revisionist history.

How is giving Ryan an extra year a bad thing? We can just bury him in the minors if he isnt performing. Let's just pile on Holland for this massive mistake that will cost this team a champion. SMH.

Well they obviously gave up kostin. Is that not an asset? I'm sure you're going to insist he had zero value but guys like him show up when it matters the most.

 

[GOilers88]

Well they obviously gave up kostin. Is that not an asset? I'm sure you're going to insist he had zero value but guys like him show up when it matters the most.

Kostin wanted too much money to be here. We can argue about whether you think he'll be worth 2mil or more next season but it's all speculation.

The facts are that Holland dumped Yamo's 3.1mil at the cost of a player who likely wasn't coming back, and by all reports was leveraging a KHL exodus to get what he wanted.

People are really overstating the impact Kostin has on the roster. It's not a make or break loss for the team.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Well they obviously gave up kostin. Is that not an asset? I'm sure you're going to insist he had zero value but guys like him show up when it matters the most.

Yeah. Losing Kostin continues to be ignored. The asset management this offseason has been non existent. We're far worse on bottomsix from where we were in playoffs.

lol as well the poster thought nobody was saying Yams was useless. Several of us have had the opinion all along.

 

[McDoused]

Well they obviously gave up kostin. Is that not an asset? I'm sure you're going to insist he had zero value but guys like him show up when it matters the most.

Holland was going to have to let him walk anyways. He wanted too much money and ended up costing Detroit 2.5M x 2 years which is something Edmonton couldnt afford.

Maybe Holland could have gotten back a late round pick but honestly who cares?

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

This team is not as good as the one last year plain and simple. Way too much money for multi year contracts to players like Kassian, Yamamoto, Ceci, Nurse, Campbell, Kane etc.

Holland has been awful at cap management. The funny thing is that was a massive knock on him from his time in Detroit so we cannot be surprised.

but you've would've been cool with Holland overpaying Kostin for a couple years?

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

but you've would've been cool with Holland overpaying Kostin for a couple years?

I wouldn't have. We don't need another Kassian situation.

 

[KCC]

This team is not as good as the one last year plain and simple. Way too much money for multi year contracts to players like Kassian, Yamamoto, Ceci, Nurse, Campbell, Kane etc.

Holland has been awful at cap management. The funny thing is that was a massive knock on him from his time in Detroit so we cannot be surprised.

I would say they are about the same. The problem is they still have the same problems that have plagued them for some time now. Basically it's the same old song and dance. How far can McDavid and Draisaitl carry the team. If it can happen even just once and they win it all hey I'll take it. But it is not a recipe for much success.

 

[harpoon]

I’m sorry, are we not allowed to discuss some alternative paths to the one the team ended on and potential learning moving forward or do we just accept there just simply nothing else that could’ve been done?

You can discuss them all you want. However, there’s no ‘learning’ to be done here. Other posters have spelled out clearly why Yamamoto and Puljujarvi were re-signed. If you want to believe that other GMs would walk away from young twenties first round draft picks (one of which was a top 5 pick, and the other who had just scored 20 goals) you can feel free to do so. Personally I don’t recall those sorts of moves being made around the league. I’d love to see some examples though if you’d like to provide them.

Holland has made mistakes for sure. Some serious ones. The re-signings of Yamamoto and Puljujarvi barely register on that list and posters complaining about it have their captain hindsight hats on.

 

[duul]

The team is worse this year than last, at best we are the same. AKA still multiple significant defensive upgrades from being a real threat to win a Cup. Holland exemplifies cap ignorance.

The fact of the matter is that him signing Nurse and Campbell, two choices that lay directly at his feet, have cost us from getting the pieces required to make a real run. That's how I will view him. I don't care that he signed all of Janmark, Ryan, and whoever the f*** else for under three million or whatever the 'tankies' (props to @alphahelix for bringing this term to the forum) were lauding the other day. I don't care that he traded for Ekholm. He genuinely ruined this teams real shot at a Cup by singing Nurse to 9.25 and Campbell to 5. Simple as.

 

[harpoon]

Yeah. Losing Kostin continues to be ignored. The asset management this offseason has been non existent. We're far worse on bottomsix from where we were in playoffs.

Good lord man. Ignored by whom? There’s a twenty page thread on that very topic. You’ve spoke of little else for the past week.

How difficult is it to comprehend that Kostin was walking out the door anyway? The team did not have the money to meet his salary demands. That is completely separate and unrelated to whatever happened with Yamamoto. Just because the two of them were moved to the same club it doesn’t mean that Yamamoto’s departure was purchased at the cost of Kostin. From Detroit’s viewpoint it may be so, but we aren’t Wings fans here. Once Kostin set his price at $2, he wasn’t coming back here no matter what.

It appears that Kostin didn’t want to be in Edmonton, so I really don’t understand all the bleating and blaming going on over the past week. It’s getting to be a bit much. I don’t even think you cried this hard when Taylor Hall left.

The fact of the matter is that him signing Nurse and Campbell, two choices that lay directly at his feet, have cost us from getting the pieces required to make a real run. That's how I will view him

This is fair. This is the reason the team can’t sign good value players like Kostin. It has nothing whosoever to do with comparatively minor contracts handed out to the likes of Yamamoto and Puljujarvi.